Is the Lee factory crimp die bad with lead bullets?

[DaveInPA]

I'm beginning to start my journey into loading .40 S&W. I loaded some dummy rounds with 180gr lead bullets and crimped using the FCD. I pushed HARD on these rounds against my bench and got NO bullet setback.

I think I've heard people say that it's a bad idea to use the FCD with lead bullets. Is there any truth to this?

[Unclenick]

Nope. It works very well with them in handgun rounds. The Lee factory crimp for rifle works on a different principle, squeezing the brass inward with a collet, and I suppose that could damage a hard enough cast bullet under some circumstances. Perhaps that's what you heard mentioned?

[Peter M. Eick]

Well, it depends, sort of like most things in life.

Here is how you figure out if you have a problem (and from your description, I think you might).

Take a piece of brass, resize it and set it aside. Take a new lead bullet. Mike it out so you know how big it is. Take your time, do it accurately. Write the number down.

Seat the bullet in the resized brass end then mike the top most edge of the brass right where it just about goes to the bullet. Write the number down.

Resize it in the FCD.

Measure the brass, right at the junction to the bullet. Write that number down.

Pull the bullet out and remeasure it. Write that number down.

Now compare the size of the bullet before and after FCD-ing. I bet it changed, probably a lot. If so you have a problem and the FCD is probably not helping your groups much. The only way to know for sure is load up 50 with the fcd and 50 without and try it. I saw that with my guns, the FCD was adding 2 o 3" to my 15 yrds groups in the 45 acp and 9mm.

I find the worst offenders are starline brass and lead bullets.


Now why you ask?

Consider the problem if YOU had to engineer the sizer ring. What would you do? You have to pick a inside diameter of the ring, might as well pick it so it is about halfway through the average thickness of the brass from most manufacturers. Thus thick brass gets sized, thin brass does not. Lead bullets are normally thicker then jacketed. Lead gets sized, jacketed do not.

For this reason the FCD's have generally been banished from my loading bench. I bought them early on, experimented and gave up on most of them. The 357 sig is the one exception. Works great in the sig.

Remember your mileage may vary. Test and verify anything read on the net.

[wncchester]

"I think I've heard people say that it's a bad idea to use the FCD with lead bullets. Is there any truth to this?"

All the pistol FCD does differently is make sure any ammo you use it on will chamber. But, I've learned to like that!

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Dave..

I'm beginning to start my journey into loading .40 S&W. I loaded some dummy rounds with 180gr lead bullets and crimped using the FCD. I pushed HARD on these rounds against my bench and got NO bullet setback.

Pat yourself on the back; you have achieved success. That is exactly the test I use when setting up to load any auto-pistol round.

[CrustyFN]

I don't load 40 but I do use a FCD for 9mm and 45 auto using lead. I have done as Peter suggested. I seated some bullets and then ran them into the FCD without crimping. Every bullet measured the same after it was pulled as it did before it was seated. I think the post sizing ring makes a great case gage. If I feel a round get post sized then I set it to the side and inspect it. If I'm not happy with it when I inspect it then I pull it and reuse the components.

[Sam06]

No the FCD is a good die. The lyman M Die is a good choice also with cast bullets.

[oif-vet]

I use the Lee FCD exclusively with all my lead bullets. No issues. Good and accurate ammo with a light crimp.

[SL1]

Be advised that not all FCDs have the exact same carbide ring diameter. I got one in .44 that was slightly sizing FACTORY jacketed bullet loads. Lee said it must be one of the "tight" ones.

SO, you really need to check what YOURS is doing to YOUR bullets.

If you are doing everything else properly, you really don't need the pistol version of the FCD (with the cabide ring). I have quite using the ring in the crimp stage. I use the crimp internals for the .44 in a .45 die body, so I get the crimp without any posibility of sizing the case. (I also use the .44 FCD body to initially size my cases, and then size with the regular carbide sizer just down to slightly below where the bullet will seat.)

SL1

[CrustyFN]

If you are doing everything else properly, you really don't need the pistol version of the FCD

I never really understood that statement. If you are doing everything right you don't need any separate crimp die. I guess there are a lot of us that like to separate the seating from the crimping.

[rbernie]

I think I've heard people say that it's a bad idea to use the FCD with lead bullets. Is there any truth to this?

Not in my experience, and I've loaded and shot tens and tens of thousands of cast loads in all sorts of pistol and revolver chamberings.

I guess there are a lot of us that like to separate the seating from the crimping.

I'm certainly one of those kind of folk.

[SL1]

CrustyFN wrote:

Quote:
If you are doing everything else properly, you really don't need the pistol version of the FCD

I never really understood that statement. If you are doing everything right you don't need any separate crimp die. I guess there are a lot of us that like to separate the seating from the crimping.

What I was trying to say was that you don't need the CARBIDE RING in a FCD if you have all of your other dies set-up properly, because it wouldn't be doing anything useful. That is not to say that using a separate crimp die isn't a good idea. The crimp die just doesn't need a carbide ring in it. So, you can use pretty much anybody's crimp die in the last step. The actual crimping part of Lee's FCD isn't a bad design, and (as I already wrote above) I use that for my .44s with an oversize (.45) ring so that it does NOT do any sizing when I crimp (in a separate operation from seating).

SL1

[RidgwayCO]

I've gotten rid of all my handgun FCDs and replaced them with regular taper crimp and roll crimp dies.

Just as an example, I recently noticed that the FCD die was doing a LOT of post-sizing on my .380 Auto rounds when using both jacketed and lead bullets. So after loading some rounds normally, I pulled a couple of bullets of each type to check bullet diameters. The Hornady 100gr FMJ-Encapsulated bullets had been sized from .355" down to .354", and the 95gr LRN bullets had been sized from .356" down to .353". Sorry, but that kind of reduction in bullet diameter is unacceptable to me... YMMV.

[DaveInPA]

I pulled the pullets from the dummy rounds and there was no reduction in diameter.

[RNG]

DaveInPa wrote:

I think I've heard people say that it's a bad idea to use the FCD with lead bullets. Is there any truth to this?

It depends on a couple of factors.

.40 S&W has a diameter of .400. Nominal .40 brass wall thickness is .010.

.400 + .010 + .010 = .420

The Lee FCD will size to .420. Not a problem with .400 jacketed bullets.

To help reduce leading when shooting lead boolits we typically size .001 over bore diameter. With respect to .40 we size to .401.

.401 + .010 + .010 = .421

Using the Lee FCD will size to .420 thus reducing the lead boolit to .400 which COULD promote leadiing in the barrel. The bigger problem here is that depending on the alloy used, crimping the .401 to .400 (.421 to .420) case neck tension may not be retained causing the boolit to become loose in the case. This wouldn't be a problem with setback since a "lip" would have been created when the boolit was reduced to .420 but may promote leading and reduce accuracy.

If you're using the FCD, are able to maintain accuracy without serious leading, and case neck tension isn't a problem, then I'd say you're may be ok but proceed with caution.

YMMV -

DaveInPa wrote:

I pulled the pullets from the dummy rounds and there was no reduction in diameter.

Just curious, are your boolits .400 or .401?




Warmest Regards,
Richard

[DaveInPA]

They're .400 according to my calipers. I think my calipers are pretty accurate since they read a jacketed .223 Remington bullet at .224.

[RNG]

At .400 I would watch for leading.

Cheers,
Richard

[Sam06]

A 40 S&W bullet should be sized larger than .400, I would think you whould want them to be about .403.

I would watch for leading also.

[DaveInPA]

A .40 S&W bullets sized to .403?

[Jim Watson]

If you are loading mixed brass with bulk cast bullets, the CFC die has a place. After all, if it won't go in the chamber, it won't shoot at all.

If you worry about distortion of the bullet hurting accuracy, then you ought to be using better components that do not need any help chambering.

If you find that you are distorting the bullets so badly that the bullet pull is reduced and setback becomes more likely, then you should not use the CFC die.

[mtnbkr]

I bet it changed, probably a lot. If so you have a problem and the FCD is probably not helping your groups much.

Just as an example, I recently noticed that the FCD die was doing a LOT of post-sizing on my .380 Auto rounds when using both jacketed and lead bullets. So after loading some rounds normally, I pulled a couple of bullets of each type to check bullet diameters. The Hornady 100gr FMJ-Encapsulated bullets had been sized from .355" down to .354", and the 95gr LRN bullets had been sized from .356" down to .353". Sorry, but that kind of reduction in bullet diameter is unacceptable to me...

I did an experiment recently. I used 3 Oregon Trail 240gr SWC bullets and one piece of PMC 44mag brass (same case for both loaded round tests). The SWCs are advertised as being .431. They mic out to .431-.431x (not quite .432).

I loaded one bullet but didn't run it through the crimp die. I pulled the bullet with a kinetic puller and measured it. It measured .430x-.431.

I loaded another bullet and ran it through the crimp stage with the crimping portions removed (just using the sizing ring). I pulled the bullet and measured it. It too measured .430x-.431. It also took several firm whacks to remove the bullet.

My testing indicates no effect from the FCD on bullet diameter with PMC brass. It might do something with thicker brass. As you can see above, merely seating the bullet in sized brass has more of an effect on bullet diameter.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Be advised that not all FCDs have the exact same carbide ring diameter. I got one in .44 that was slightly sizing FACTORY jacketed bullet loads. Lee said it must be one of the "tight" ones.

SO, you really need to check what YOURS is doing to YOUR bullets.

Entire possible. It never hurts to confirm what your dies are doing. I've considered getting a 45 FCD and putting the 44 guts in it, but it wouldn't have any effect given my current set up.

Chris

[Sarge]

My testing indicates no effect from the FCD on bullet diameter with PMC brass. It might do something with thicker brass....

I load lead SWC's in .40 S&W range pick-ups. I crimp the hell out of them with the LEE FCD to insure that regardless of the neck thickness, they all get a good tight crimp.

I haven't pulled any bullets and measured them, because they're feeding like butter and shooting under 4" at 50 yards for five shots. I kinda suspect that bullet diameter isn't being negatively affected by my crimping operation.

[mtnbkr]

The only reason I checked it was threads like this. I wanted to see for myself what was going on. I could feel the carbide sizer pressing against the loaded cartridge, but found through measurement it wasn't doing anything. I was more surprised to learn the brass sized the bullet so much.

Chris

[RidgwayCO]

If you worry about distortion of the bullet hurting accuracy, then you ought to be using better components that do not need any help chambering.

And that's exactly why I stopped using the FCD. My components are just fine, and my rounds don't need to be post-sized in order to chamber. But with the FCD, in order to get a light taper crimp required to remove the case flare, I also had to accept the case post-sizing...

So if I didn't want or need the post-sizing, why not just use a taper crimp die?