What am I doing wrong? (dry firing/flinching)

[infrared35]

I have been shooting combat handguns for the better part of the past fifteen years, and I have been required to qualify with a handgun for the last ten. I've never had a problem qualifying, though in the past my scores were never as high as I would have liked. At my current job, I have no problem scoring 149 or 150 out of 150, but the qual course is kind of a joke.

Most of the time I seem to be hitting the target a little low and to the left, but not enough to disqualify me at the staggering distance of fifteen yards. When I go on my own to 25 yards or more, the pattern gets worse. It seems like I ought to be able to get all my rounds into a paper plate sized area to fifteen yards and keep them centered, but I am having the hardest time these days.

A little background: I've been shooting mostly DA/SA Sigs from the beginning, but for the last two years I've had to carry a Glock 17 with an uprated 8-lb. trigger, which really sucks. I learned of a dry firing and follow-through exercise last summer and ran myself through it for about fifteen minutes. The next day, I went to the range and put fifty rounds through a softball sized hole, dead center. I thought I was good to go, but I've never shot that well since, no matter how much I practice. I can dry fire all day long but when I get to the range I feel like I'm flinching.

I've done the ball and dummy exercises over and over but no matter how much I concentrate, it doesn't seem to help. I seem to shoot better with a heavier but smoother DAO (such as an L-frame Smith or a Beretta 96D), but for now I'm stuck with the Glock. That 8-lb. trigger really stacks up toward the end of its travel. Still, I feel like there's something I'm missing when it comes to technique.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Smurfslayer]

Infra,

I wonder if you're squeezing the grip (inadvertently) harder towards the end of the trigger stroke, where most of the stacking occurs...

Deference to any of the glock-o-philes here, but make sure you're using only the middle of the pad of your index finger, and that you're not "prolonging" the agony of the Glock trigger pull. One other suggestion comes to mind, try adding just a little be more support hand grip to the equation...

HTH

[Denny Hansen]

Agree that it sounds like a problem with your trigger pull, but possibly due more to slightly pushing the trigger back and to the side rather than squeezing your entire grip. See more seven o'clock hits with Glocks than almost anything else due to this. Make sure you're pressing the trigger straight back.

Denny

[infrared35]

I just tried a little dry firing and my trigger finger "automatically" slides so that the trigger goes into that first knuckle. Hopefully a little more careful finger placement will shape things up...

[infrared35]

Just to make matters worse, the two instructors that run the qual course have very different views on proper technique. One says to shove the handgun out in a deathgrip and shoot forcefully, since that's what you'd do under stress anyway. The other says to assume a nice, easy stance and to maintain such a loose grip on the firearm that he could come up and lift it out of your hands. Neither one seemed to work for me.

[Denny Hansen]

Glad we could help. Too much finger on the trigger will usually cause problems of one sort or another, often 7 o'clock hits for a right handed shooter.

As for your shooting style, the better instructors out there may have you try things that have worked for a lot of people, but will admit that in the end you must shoot in a way that works best works for you. For example, while I manage pretty well shooting Weaver and recommend it to folks who can comfortably assue it, my wife who is, uh, well endowed, can't get comortable with it.

Oh yeah, don't forget NOT to simulate recoil during your dry fire or you may find your live fire rounds impacting at 11 o'clock.

Denny

[Aces]

Holding a Glock as loose as instructor no.2 suggests will cause it to jam for sure.

[Dwight55]

Infrared35, . . .

I am no expert, but from experience, mostly shooting a super Redhawk and 1911: I would suggest without seeing it, that you need to modify your hold.

Try this: 1) set your shooting hand elbow on a table with the UNLOADED pistol in the other hand, 2) form a "Y" with your thumb on one side, fingers on the other, 3) thrust the handgun down into that "Y" so that the barrell is pointing absolutely 100% straight up, . . . and your forearm bone is also pointing 100% straight up. The barrel of the weapon should go perfectly straight up from your forearm bone.

Next: wrap the shooting hand fingers around the grip, starting with the little finger first; then the ring finger; then the middle finger; and when you get to the middle finger, it should have to displace the ring finger and little finger just a bit. Lay your thumb naturally along the other side, . . . and your shooting finger straight out along the trigger guard.

Now do two things: point with your finger at several objects; then without moving your hand, . . . bend you head and neck to see how the sights align on where the finger is pointing. In most cases, . . . it should be darn near perfectly on. If it is, . . . practice dry firing with this grip, . . . but hold that weapon with the thumb and three other fingers in a super firm grip. Massad Ayoob calls this a "crush grip".

Last, . . . naturally slip your finger in and onto the trigger. DO NOT let it slip any further in as you begin pulling it back, . . . pull back straight.

If you are still shooting left, . . . start out all over again, but this time when you position the gun in your shooting hand, . . . position it so it leans a little to the right off of 100% straight up and down. Practice with it, . . . play with it, . . . work on it, . . . you will find just the right place where you need to grab it, . . . and your hand will be able to remember once you have gotten it.

While I am not a fan of tupperware pistols, . . . the shooting technique is for all tense and purposes, . . . the same. This technique is the one that was taught at least in VietNam, . . . and it worked there quite well with the 1911.

As for the instructor who told you to relax your grip, . . . real loose, . . . sure seems goofy to me. Anyway, . . . best wishes.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Ozzieman]

What I was taught was to use a revolver for your trigger work.
Load 4 rounds leaving two or 5 and one empty, spin the cylinder before you close it and do not look at the gun as you close it and then fire at a target in a normal manner.
The problem with dryfiring is that you know the guns not going to go off so your not going to flintch, jerk or what ever you do.
Firing a gun with only a couple of empty cylinders you will really see what your doing and for some people its a VERY big surprise.
Its hard to do with an auto unless you make some rounds that will feed but not go off and have some one elso load the mags.

[Chindo18Z]

infrared35:

1. Most likely culprit (as others stated) is probably too much finger wrapped around the trigger at the moment of firing. Find a comfortable spot on the trigger (pad, joint, whatever) and practice a smooth straight back pull (not a squeeze).

2. Practice by dry firing at a very close target (like a black 1/2" dot or paster square on a white piece of paper at a range of about 3 yards). Sight picture should not budge when weapon fires.

3. Alternatively, place a soft lead pencil (slightly longer than the barrel) into the barrel (eraser end towards chamber & sharpened end protruding from muzzle (about 1/4" - 1/2"). Tape the aforementioned white paper to a wall at normal muzzle height (for your normal shooting stance) and dry fire the weapon at the wall from a range of about 1/2" (seriously). Dry firing the weapon (be sure it's cleared and no ammo present) will have the firing pin strike the eraser end with just enough force to cause the pencil to jump forward from the barrel and mark the paper.After the first shot, you should have a small lead pinpoint mark on your target paper. Repeat several times (10 shots). Each subsequent "shot" should ideally go to the same spot or vicinity of the original pencil mark. You will actually develop a "shot group" of pencil marks. Strive to place all marks into the same spot. Change your grip or trigger finger position as needed until you find a position that allows you to consistently group where you are aiming; the shot group should be just slightly lower than your aimpoint (the vertical distance between the center of your bore and the top of your front sight).

4. You may be anticipating recoil (slightly) and giving the weapon a slight "push" or "nudge" down at the instant of letoff. This combined with too much right hand trigger finger will cause rounds to group 7 o'clock. More Ball & Dummy.

5. Grip should not be "Gorilla"; use a strong, firm grip (like you would use in a man-to-man handshake). A useful gauge is to bear down on your grip until fingers of support hand "blanch" or whiten the skin of your firing hand (wherever they happen to contact) AND THEN BACK OFF A LITTLE.

6. If your range allows, practice slow aimed fire (as in #2 above) at an initial range of about 3 yards. 5 round shot groups. Three small paster targets. With your Glock, fire 15 rounds over a 5-10 minute period. Yeah, I know...that's not a manly distance to hit a big old 1" or 1 cm black target paster. Well, we teach every US Army Special Forces soldier to do exactly that. Slow. Aimed. Consistent. Every round into the same ragged hole. When you are comfortable doing that and with a modicum of speed...move the same target to 5 yards...repeat. If you start getting sloppy...slow down and refocus on basics (stance, grip, trigger, sights). The initial short range allows you to see your groups up close and apply stance/grip/aiming/trigger body english to the problem. When you are both consistent and accurate, start shooting controlled pairs using the same targets/distances but cut the time in half. Remember, this is marksmanship practice...not combat firing.

7. Last suggestion is to take up your standard two handed firing stance/grip; freeze it and glance at the REAR of your firing grip. I'll bet that you'll see a slight (or maybe huge) gap between the heels of your two hands. This allows the weapon to "squirm" in your grip as you shoot (regardless of how tightly you grip). Squeeze the rear of your gripping hands together so that you have good "meat-to-meat" contact at the rear. The fleshy area located between your support hand thumb & its wrist should be snugged up against its firing hand counterpart. You are attempting to encase the pistol grip a full 360 degrees. Once you find a comfortable position, apply firm grip (as in #5 above) without breaking the contact between hands at the rear of your firing grip.

8. I'd tell you to do dry fire washer/dime drills but, it would be kinda cheating with the flat top of a Glock muzzle.

Just a few drills, not to excess. Mentally tell yourself that each shot is the only round you have for the day. Forget draw or combat moves...this is marksmanship practice. Do the exact same thing for each and every shot (dry or live). Take your time. For each shot (dry or live) set up your stance, your grip, and your FRONT SIGHT FOCUS. Before you go through your firing sequence for each shot, take a deep breath and then let it about half way out. This relaxes your diaphragm & chest muscles (reducing shakes) and supplies enough oxygen to your system for you to aim at target, focus on front sight, and fire within about 12-15 seconds (before your eyes start to blur from oxygen deprivation). If you haven't fired within 12-15 seconds, relax completely and start sequence over (remembering to breath again). During combat drills, your breathing cycle becomes irrelevant but, for now, practice it. Fire the shot, regain original sight picture, then completely relax (even safe the pistol and set it down). Take anywhere from 20-60 seconds before you start the sequence for your next shot (even dry fire). After each shot, regain the exact same sight picture (follow-thru) before relaxing or proceeding to the next shot. Go slow until you are comfortable and smooth with your rythm. Speed will follow on its own.

You already know how to shoot, and I don't mean to teach you to suck eggs. We all have room for improvement. Some days I can't hit a damn thing the way I think I should. Sometimes a small correction or tweak of technique is all that is needed. Try some of the above techniques (especially #s 6 & 7) and see if they help.

Have fun...and good luck.

[JohnKSa]

The strong hand's main job is to pull the trigger and to provide something for the gun to recoil against (locked wrist). I can't see how to execute a very fine motor movement like pulling a trigger while you're also trying to grip the gun tightly with the same hand.

The weak hand's main job is to hold the gun. I push the web of my hand down into the gun hard while unholstering and take a death grip with my strong hand. Then I get my weak hand in place and nearly completely relax my strong hand. Just keep the wrist locked.

Keep your strong hand thumb off the gun--it's way too used to working in conjunction with your trigger finger. It's very hard to get it to stay completely still while the index finger is moving.

Lay your weak hand thumb along the side of the receiver on the takedown latch.

Dryfire practice more.

[Ninjato]

JohnKSa: The strong hand's main job is to pull the trigger and to provide something for the gun to recoil against (locked wrist). I can't see how to execute a very fine motor movement like pulling a trigger while you're also trying to grip the gun tightly with the same hand. The weak hand's main job is to hold the gun. I push the web of my hand down into the gun hard while unholstering and take a death grip with my strong hand. Then I get my weak hand in place and nearly completely relax my strong hand. Just keep the wrist locked. Keep your strong hand thumb off the gun--it's way too used to working in conjunction with your trigger finger. It's very hard to get it to stay completely still while the index finger is moving. Lay your weak hand thumb along the side of the receiver on the takedown latch. Dryfire practice more.

I wanted to ask what do you do different when gripping a revolver. The method you explain sound more suited to the 1911.

[Guy B. Meredith]

Ozzieman's suggestion is excellent. Shooting a revolver with some chambers empty is the easiest way to check for trigger and flinch. You can do something similar with an auto by having a friend load empty mags so that you are not aware when an empty is coming. Again revolver is better as you can do it all yourself and repeat more rapidly.

Watch were the front sight "wants" to go as you maintain alignment though trigger pull. Does the sight want to go to the right, left, etc. Make sure you are paying attention to the front sight until the bullet hits the target. Pulling eyes off too early causes loss of aim.

Normally, for a right handed shooter, hitting to the 7:00 position relative to the intended location indicates recoil anticipation.

I have a heck of a time warming up and constantly need to go through exercises. If nothing else, I eventually just get tired and all the tension is gone along with the flinch. At that point I can just proceed to drill out the inner rings at 7 yds, corresponding spread at 15 yards.

I do get frustrated with the required warmup.

[the possum]

Just want to add a suggestion from a different approach.

You indicate you think you may still be flinching. This is a mental game. Sometimes it seems some guys get too hung up on doing everything perfectly, and "can't see the forest for the trees". Sometimes it's better to just bring the target in to 7 yards or so, and blast away. Have fun. Even if you don't put every shot in the X ring, don't worry. The only purpose here is to get over your fears about recoil and muzzle blast, and to realize it's no great feat to hit a big target that close. You have to realize it ain't gonna hurt you before you can focus on the details, and there's often no need to over analyze the situation. You wouldn't go through all the mental strain if you're just throwing a rock; just do it.

[infrared35]

I guess that's the most annoying part - it's only a 9mm, and a Glock at that. I shouldn't be having any mental problems with recoil. I briefly owned a .45 about seven years ago, and never had trouble like I seem to now. On a bizarre note, I seem to shoot a little better with a G26. I don't know if that's the better trigger or me taking more time because I "know" the gun is less accurate. Or if the tiny grip is forcing my hands to assume a different position.

My grip seems to be fine - both hands come together with my thumbs pointing forward and resting along the side of the frame. But I think I'm having trouble balancing the gripping power of my two hands. I usually grip a little harder with my weak hand, but it feels like most of that energy is focused in the fingers where it may be pulling my aim to the left.

Irritatingly, our Glocks have the factory extended slide stop, which my strong hand thumb almost covers. As a result, quite often the thing'll fail to lock open when I shoot it empty. Maybe the thumb position is a factor after all - I used to shoot Weaver with my thumbs kind of "curled" instead of pointing straight forward. The Glock instructors have been (mostly) telling us to shoot Isosceles with the thumbs pointed forward to aid in instinctive aiming. Could that have anything to do with it? I know I need some trigger work, but it just feels like I got worse with training instead of better.

[JohnKSa]

Ninjato,

Actually I was using my Glock 17 as a model while I wrote that bit. I don't own a 1911.

For a revolver I use the same grip -- the weak hand thumb on the frame under the cylinder and just over the trigger and the strong hand thumb just resting on top of the weak hand thumb (on the thumb knuckle/hand actually) but not touching the gun. Weak hand doing most of the gripping & strong hand mostly relaxed.

On a revolver, you can also curl the strong hand thumb down against the grip and under the weak hand. With that grip, the weak hand thumb just lays against the weak hand and isn't touching the gun much. I shoot better with the other method though.

This grip on an auto also keeps the strong hand thumb from accidentally hitting the slide release (like it could if it's against the side of the gun) or getting in the way of a decocking lever (like it could if it's sticking straight up.)

infrared--you're definitely demonstrating one reason to keep the strong hand thumb OFF the gun. I think you'll find that doing so also helps your marksmanship.

[Lazy D]

Someone may have already posted a reply, but I got bored looking through all of them. As a firearms instructor that is the most common thing I see, and is the most difficult to break. The problem is that you do a great job of getting the sights all perfectly lined up and then you squeeze through quickly on the trigger so as to not disturb the sights. The recoil of the gun covers the movement of the sight and you don't see where it was when the gun fired. Try this. Start putting pressure on the trigger and while the trigger is in motion then you line up the sights. Never stop the trigger to line up the sights. When you stop the trigger and try to make that perfect shot, you typically will jerk it. It must be a suprise when the gun fires. 90% of shooting is a mental task of making your mind and body to all the fundamentals. Try talking yourself through each shot doing slow fire practice. Allow the front sight to make that small rotation while it is bracketed in the rear sight, and while holding it close and slowly moving the trigger, tell yourself "not yet, not yet, not yet......" until the shot breaks. If you have any dummy rounds load them randomly in your mags and then do the slow fire. When you hit that dummy and don't get the recoil you will see exactly what happens to the front sight. If the shot goes off at the exact moment you want it to you will jerk it every time.

Remember "Practice does not make perfect, Perfect practice makes perfect"

[infrared35]

Interestingly, on my first trip to the range after this thread, I didn't get to shoot my G17 but I did get to shoot a G21 (.45ACP). I had a pretty good group, but it was a little high and to the left.

[Lazy D]

Short of a sighting error, when you start to see rounds striking high and left, and you are a right hand shooter, that is what is called "Riding the Recoil". What is happening is at the moment the gun is about to fire, you are slightly moving the gun back in the direction the recoil will go. A way to tell if you are doing that is if you start to see more muzzle flip than normal. Insure that you are using the proper grip. 70% of the grip should come from the support hand, not the gun hand. The best way to describe it is place the (unloaded) gun in the gun hand. Look at the left side of the grip. You will have an "L" shape open area on that side. Point your support hand thumb toward the target, and place it along the top edge of the frame, below the slide and the fatty part of the support palm in that open area. Your support hand fingers will be pointing down toward the ground (45 degrees) now wrap the fingers around the strong hand. The middle knuckles should line up under the trigger guard. Make sure your strong hand thumb is NOT under the support hand in anyway. Lay it on top of the support thumb. You want as much of the support hand on the gun as possible. Remember a minimum of 70% grip from support hand. Keep the gun hand relaxed and the trigger finger moves very smooth.
Good luck.

[Nnobby45]

Make sure you have TWO sight pictures for each shot. One before the shot and one after the gun recovers from recoil. That goes for multiple targets, also. If you have a second sight picture before you move to the next target, then you can rest assured that you've followed through and didn't flinch. You can do it faster than you think.
With the SIG's first shot, make sure you keep the sight on target (let it come back on after recoil) until the trigger goes forward to reset. Similar to the Glock. Also, you shouldn't have much trouble with the 8lb. trigger when you get used to it. I have the NY 1 on two of my Glock pistols, and an 8lb. connector on the other.

[Nnobby45]

You can't flinch if you have two sight pictures for each shot. The first one and another one when the gun recovers from recoil. Try this when shooting multiple targets. With the DA SIG, the first DA shot is the hardest. Make sure you have a sight picture when the trigger comes forward to reset, and then shoot immediately, or move to the next target. You can do it faster than you think. Also, I've come to like the 8lb. trigger pulls on my Glock pistols. Two with NY1 triggers, and one with an eight lb. connector. Didn't at first.

[Nnobby45]

I should mention that most of us probably do flinch in a way. Flinching before the shot is bad---that's really flinching. However, anticipating the shot and exerting pressure forward isn't a good thing, but since it is timed to meet the recoil, it doesn't affect our shooting. Of course, if we do that on an empty chamber, it looks as though we're flinching terribly, as we push the gun forward to meet that recoil that isn't there. I've quit worrying about it. Flinch before the shot, or fail to follow through (especially with that first DA shot), and your shot can go low--perhaps very low. So keep gun on target 'till that trigger resets.!!

[tomlj75]

i have hade to use the relvolver idea but i also had a trigger job done to drop the pull pressure. one or both of them seemed to help quite a bit. I can now shoot my 480 ruger fairly accurate now.

[beenthere]

Some excellent postings so far. We used the pencil trick in the academy. It's particularly veluable to verify consistent sight picture.
From you comment about your instructors I'm guessing you are tightening up too much with your fingers as you pull the trigger. I've only shot my son-in-laws Glock but I can see where the trigger stack up (similar to a Colt revolver) could be causing you to tighten up with the fingers also.
Check out the "Target Analysis" at Makarov.com and see if the problems fit your shooting style.
You usually won't go too wrong if you treat your gun like you're holding a bird. Firm enough so it cant get away, but don't squeeze the life out of it.