when is old powder too old

[oley55]

I have a one pound, sealed can of Dupont Hi-Skor 700-X, with a date stamp of 22 April, 1980. There is some light service rust on the tined top but is otherwise new. It was gifted to me in 83-84 time frame but I never got around to using it. I was planning to use it up loading some 45 ACP. Since the glued on seal under the cap is still in place I have no idea what the powder looks or smells like. The powder is still loose in the can. It has always been stored in a dry place (for Florida) but has not exactly been stored in a cool place (my garage).

Being the stingy SOB I am, I am reluctant to toss it if I can safely use it.

Will old powder like this exhibit odd odors or other signs it has begun to break down? Is there a method of determining if it is ok to use?

[P Flados]

Open it, look at it, sniff it.

If it looks and smells typical, use it.

As powder goes bad there is a big change in the smell and appearance.

Even when there is some change in smell, it might still shoot ok, but it has become acidic. If it is "Iffy" you can try it, but shoot it shortly after loading it.

Even if you think it is ok, shooting it before too long after loading it is still a good idea.

[disseminator]

When in doubt, toss it out.

It's only one pound. Though it's probably ok if kept in good conditions, it's 35 years old, I would toss it and save the can for your loading bench/room.

[Don Fischer]

I have a very old 8# can of Red Dot. The red dots in it are faded really bad but the stuff still shoot's. Good for plinking loads anyway. Load up one and see what happens!

[FITASC]

35 year old powder, if kept properly, should be just fine.

[std7mag]

Does it smell like Miracle Gro?

[BBarn]

Unless it's air conditioned or under ground, a garage in Florida would be a very poor place to store powder.

[Unclenick]

I've had powder go bad three times over the years. In all three, it came to smell pungently of nitric acid and not just the normal ether scent. In two instances, it became oily and clumped together and caused corrosion. In one instance, I had it in an improper container and it corroded the metal cap. In another, it went bad brass cartridge cases loaded with it. In the third instance it was dry in the factory container, but if I poured a little out on a white scrap of paper, then slid the powder off, red dust was left behind.

The improper container let light in. I don't know if the plastic itself was an issue, but half of the same lot still in its factory container continued to be in good shape. Here is the bad container:



In the case of the cartridges, it was surplus ammo made in 1982 behind the iron curtain by S&B. It was already bad in 1993 when I tried to use it. About a tenth of the cartridges fired weakly at that point. The barrel of my M1A, even after cleaning, grew a layer of red rust when it sat for a couple of months. This was due to nitric acid radicals in the powder having attacked the steel faster than I could clean it, apparently. If I'd treated it as if it had corrosive primers (I have reason to believe it did not), that might not have occurred, but it is one reason not to try to shoot deteriorating powder. But it's not the most serious reason not to.

The most serious reason not to use deteriorating powder is it can blow your gun up. Mostly it just gets weak, but in some instances, as several Garand blow-ups you can find online caused by 1947 ammo and the heat aging work by U.S. Naval Ordnance found, powders can have the acid products of breakdown eat up their deterrent first, leaving the remaining powder with a faster burning rate than it originally had. If there is still enough good powder left, that can more than double pressure. It's not the most common failure mode, but it's not something you want to experiment with.

The cause of all this is the spontaneous breakdown of nitrocellulose. In good powder, it is happening all the time, few molecules at a time. The acid released can trigger the breakdown of still more molecules, but the powder has a compound in it called a stabilizer that reacts with the acid to neutralize it. So the rate of deterioration remains quite sedate at normal room temperatures as long as the stabilizer hasn't been used up. But once it has been used up deterioration snowballs, and breakdown can be rapid. So powder can seem just fine for decades, then suddenly turn.

Like all chemical reactions, the spontaneous breakdown and stabilizer neutralizing is temperature-dependent, apparently obeying the old chemistry approximation of doubling in rate for every 10°C (18°F) increase in storage temperature. So you can have powder a century old that still works, and some just a few years old that isn't. This is exacerbated by the way canister grade powders for reloaders are made to have more tightly controlled burn rates than bulk grade powder does. It is accomplished by testing the burn rate of each lot and holding back extra slow and extra fast lots in storage to be blended with newer lots to adjust their burn rate. This means some of the powder in most new lots of canister grade powder contain some amount of older powder, and you don't know how much older.

Bulk lots double-base spherical and stick powders and the munitions loaded with them are stockpiled by the military for up to 20 years. Single-base powder and its munitions are stockpiled for up to 45 years, as they tend to be more stable. However, the canister grades, unless they came straight off the line with just the right burn rate, will have some older powder mixed and you have no way to know its age, and it can start the breakdown snowball, so you just have to keep an eye on it all and use your nose and eyes to check it.

[D Michalak]

I just bought 2 old square cans of Hercules 2400 at an estate sale last weekend. The cans were sealed and stored in a basement in MI. I opened one and it smelled and looked like new powder. It passed the white paper test with no sign of red dust. I loaded it in some .357 magnums with some old CCI primers from the same estate sale. Went to the range yesterday and they shot just fine. Powder was $4 /lb. Primers were $5/1000, Bullets were from another estate sale and we're $2.50/100.

[RC20]

I have some powders that were bought 1980 and some back in the 70s.

Still good. Clean, no smell. I have used them from time to time.

How fast it may start to change once exposed to air is ?????

Does not hurt to take a look. Like Unclneick etc I have seen them that had gone bad, smell and appearance were different than a good powder.

[Unclenick]

It's really difficult to predict. I know Alliant has some of the first (1913?) lot of Unique that is still good. They store it underwater, which dissolves evolved acid, in lieu of stabilizer, and occasionally dry and test a sample and it's still good. I know someone who fired some 1920's M1 ball ammo successfully. I've also seen photos of a Garand blown up (including the receiver ring) by 1947 surplus. I've seen recall notices on IMR4007SC that was breaking down just two or three years after purchase. Vihtavuori's site says their powder will last at least 10 years, properly stored. That N140 sample that rusted the container out was 20 years old, but, as I mentioned, the portion in its original opaque plastic container is still good, though there have been complaints about other quantities from that same early '90s lot breaking down.

Keep the stuff away from light and heat. Air should not matter a lot. None of the cap seals or plastics I've seen will have zero water vapor transmission rates. Same for the plastics used in the containers now. Metals are better in that regard. Mostly it's just spontaneous breakdown. If you put the stuff in the deep freeze, it should last centuries.

[T. O'Heir]

Like FITASC says, how it has been stored matters. Your garage in Florida isn't good though. It's not going to cause any grief other than not igniting. Probably best to spread it on your lawn. Assuming you have a lawn. The garden will do.

[Unclenick]

NO! If it has deteriorated the wrong way (temperature) it CAN cause other grief, like blowing your gun up, as documented in the Garand blowups and the U.S. Naval Ordnance tests of artificially heat-aged M80 ammunition that Slamfire has reproduced document sections of.

[mehavey]

I've always used the "acrid smell" test.
But adding the white glove/paper test sounds like a good belt & suspenders regimen.

[RC20]

Unclenick: Never thought about the freezer, we used to store film in the fridge to preserve it.

Never lost any, but if I decide to buy a 50 lb keg I will buy a chest freezer for it!

[littlebikerider]

I had somebody give me a couple pounds of H450 a while back, along with some Green Dot and a few others I can't remember. The problem with the H450 is that they quit making it far enough back that my reloading manuals don't have it listed. It's probably just as well because, from what I've read, it was a good rifle powder, and I am just reloading for handgun.

[oley55]

well I guess since my non-climate controlled North Florida garage seems to be a highly frowned upon storage location, guess I'll see if this stuff is still suitable for lawn fertilization. Dang it anyways.....

[RC20]

I would put it this way.

If there is any doubt get rid of it.

If you know powder and what it looks like and smells like when it goes bad, load er up if its good.

[reynolds357]

Who knows? I still shoot WW2 surplus on occasion in my 8 Mauser.

[P Flados]

700x is a fast burning flake.

As long as you use it in a "high margin" application to start with, you will be safe and be able to get a feel for how it is working. For example, a small charge under a boolit in a 357 would have huge margins and be of no concern.

[Jim Watson]

I saw a recent report of dead grass where failed powder was dumped.
Nitric fumes aren't fertilizer. Nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin don't readily break down into soluble nitrates.
Pour it out in a narrow strip and ignite one end.

[gwpercle]

Some powders have a long shelf life . Stored properly , original containers , inside my air conditioned house in a cool dark closet , I am still using some IMR4895, Bullseye , Unique , 700X and Alcan #5 that date back to 1970 - 1975 .
They smell good , look good and no red dust . The loaded ammo still has the velocity it should. No reason to toss powder just because of age...stored properly it can still be useful.... I sure used it when the powder shortage hit us and I couldn't buy any new powder....the old stuff came in mighty handy !
Gary

[RC20]

Yep. Not sure how far back my AL8 goes, I think to the 70s, might be very early 80s.

I have Herc 2400, Green Dot, PB, Unique and H110 from that era and have used all of it (the 2400 from very early 72 or so)

[Geezerbiker]

Awhile back I bought several cans of old powder from an estate that I figure I got for 6 bucks a pound. The 4895 in the lot was from the late 1960s was good. However the 10 year old can I had bought new went bad.

I around 20 years ago I had a job that paid fantastic but worked me to death. I would buy reloading supplies weekly and put them way for a time when I could use them. I'm still burning though some of those supplies but only that one can of 4895 went bad...

Tony

[Drm50]

I bought a 8lb Win 630 sealed at acuction. I don't remember when they stopped making it
but at least 30yrs ago. Container looked new and powder is fine. Like ammo it depends on
how it was stored.