When to stop testing

[ninosdemente]

Loaded some 6.5 Creedmoor rounds with H4350, 5 groups of 4 shots per group. Using Hornady ELD Match 140gr on a Savage 12FV at 100yds. Working with new brass and F/L brass. From yesterday's range trip I tested twice. I went by myself as normally I take my son and dad. So I took my time, not a lot though.

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/113.jpg

From the first test, 37.1 was best and on the second, 36.6 was the best. To be honest this has been the best I have gotten for this rifle. Either I am getting better or this was just a fluke, lol.

Now, I am going to do another test as above to see the results again and really see if it wasn't pure luck, lol. Seems as I only will have for 2 more tests before I have to decide if I keep buying or move on to the next brand. At the moment, I only purchased 1 box of Nosler RDF, Sierra SP, Hornady ELD Match & Hornady Match all at 100 qty. Haven't tested the others yet.

Wondering how many times you load/test the same load until you finally say this is the one? Once you found the right load, do you keep loading the same data and just enjoy shooting it or move on to the next brand and start all over? Guessing this is up to the person loading and finding the right load for one's own rifle.

[hounddawg]

I'd take that 37.1 load and stretch it out to 300 then 600 then 800/1000 to see how it groups at range or just bang steel with it. Gotta love that H4350. Back in April in 40 degree weather I tested a load in my .260 Rem and put the rifle in the safe until today. With temps in the low 90's the avg velocity was within 5 FPS of the March test. Very stable and accurate powder for 6.5's

very nice shooting BTW

[Bart B.]

Statistically, those groups are equal, in my opinion. Several 4 shot groups typically have a 4X spread in size. When they don't, that's often caused by the shooter's variables canceling those of the ammo.

[ninosdemente]

Thanks, much appreciated. Unfortunately can't go any further than 200yds but that's a start.

[ninosdemente]

Do you mind if I ask you what you guys do?

[cw308]

nino
Nice groups , it depends on if you only going to shoot at 100 yards then I would stay with that load and concentrate on shooting form and enjoy shooting , looking for the right load can be frustrating take the joy out of shooting for the day not to mention barrel wear . The only thing is your 6.5CM is one flat shooting round out to 600 yards easy . I only shoot at 200 yards every 100 yards could be disappointing if your form isn't up to the task . Get comfortable at 100 yards , bump your groups to 5 & 10 shot groups when your consistently getting tight groups , move it to 200 yards same load . What I do to slow down my shots is load one at a time , fire , eject the round and clean the outside of the neck and shoulder with steel 0000 wool put the case in my box , takes about 30 seconds . Makes about one minute between shots.

[ninosdemente]

Thanks.

Yes, at the moment I am planning on staying at the 100 for now. I hear you on the frustrating end... I still haven't found the "right load" for .223. Still enjoy it though. Should not complain as I know what I'm getting into. Thanks for the tip. Do you mind if I ask what is purpose of cleaning with steel wool? I normally do 5 shot groups, but because I don't have much left I did 4 to be able to get more "testing" out of the ELD Match bullets. I did wonder how much different it might have been if I would have done 5 shot groups. What will 10 shot groups tell me?

[jetinteriorguy]

Looking at the first three groups, they are all hitting in the same place which looks like a node to me. I would load at 36.6 and shoot four five round groups. If that holds up, then I'd shoot four ten round groups. If I can stay MOA or better with ten round groups then that's my load. I have the same rifle and after a little over 3000 rounds I'm now at the edge of chasing the lands so I figure maybe another 500 or so rounds it will be time for a new barrel. But, it's currently just sitting in the back of the safe, I robbed the scope for another project so who knows when it will see the light of day again.

[zeke]

If you clean the necks/shoulders while the carbon is still warm, even a damp rag will wipe it right off. Let the cases sit for a spell, and the carbon on neck/shoulder take considerable more effort. Saves a lot of case cleaning effort/time if you are tumbling them.

Also works for pre cleaning warm revolvers. Any left over moisture evaporates right off.

Depending on your purpose, you have alot of room to work up the powder charge. Occasionally loads improve with increased pressure, and increased velocities improve the ballistics.

[Bart B.]

5 or 10 shot groups will have a 2X to 3X spread; statistically proven.

If all your few-shot groups are within 20% of the same size, that's a good indication they are all very accurate but your marksmanship skill level may not be up to the task.

Mine was not up to the task when I started competitive rifle shooting. I blamed the rifle and ammo being poor quality because most of my shots were not in the ten ring. My Instructor then started shooting 10's and X's with the rifle and ammo. After 15 or so such shots, he asked me if I still thought that rifle and ammo were not up to the task. That's when I realized I was the weakest part of the system.

He had me sling up the M1 Garand in prone, aim at the 100 yard target, He squeezed the trigger to fire when my hold was still. After a few position adjustments, my hold and his trigger pulling, "we" shot all 10's and X's. I then learned proper pulling that 5 pound trigger and my scores skyrocketed.

[sparkyv]

Originally Posted by cw308

What I do to slow down my shots is load one at a time , fire , eject the round and clean the outside of the neck and shoulder with steel 0000 wool put the case in my box , takes about 30 seconds . Makes about one minute between shots.

EXCELLENT idea!

[RaySendero]

ninosdemente ased:
Do you mind if I ask you what you guys do?
.

I first plan a purpose and establish a goal for the rifle.

Second, I believe that the rifle is THE most important factor for success!
As such, I'll dissemble the rifle, completely clean it, check everything I can then reassemble and lube it.

Third, I'll choose the best bullet and primer I can imagine and determine the maximum COAL for that bullet in my rifle.

Fourth, I try to find a box of factory loads that uses THAT bullet, sight-in and chrono two 3 shot groups. Will keep the rest of this box for life of rifle as a standard for any future unforeseen trouble-shooting.

Then run ladders in duplicate for various powders that will fill case to 96-100% at maximum charge. Use different target for each power ladder keeping track and drawing line between duplicates. Plot the avg velocity vs charge weight on separate graphs for each powder. I'll save all these targets and graphs.

Where I go from here depends on the purpose, goal and results;
But I have tried to cover and document the basics.



So, What's your purpose and goal for your rifle?

[cw308]

nino
Cleaning the necks and shoulder with 0000 steel wool , its only a few turns cleans up the area but more of a system in timing my shots and barrel temperature , I use a thermal label from McMaster - Carr on my barrel to monitor heat . I read about the label on "Accurate Shooters Forum" technical tips . Made sense to me .

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by cw308

Cleaning the necks and shoulder with 0000 steel wool , its only a few turns cleans up the area but more of a system in timing my shots and barrel temperature , I use a thermal label from McMaster - Carr on my barrel to monitor heat . I read about the label on "Accurate Shooters Forum" technical tips . Made sense to me .

If a good barrel is properly fit to the receiver, 30 to 40 shots fired 15 to 20 seconds apart will shoot all bullets inside 1/2 MOA. Yes, the barrel gets hot enough to cause second degree burns.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by RaySendero

Second, I believe that the rifle is THE most important factor for success!

I'm going to get slammed for this, but I know the most important thing contributing to accuracy is the human holding, aiming then firing the gun. Our variables add to those of the firearm and ammo.

[cw308]

Bart B
Then I guess we both would be slammed . I believe once you find a promising load , your shooting form is two thirds more important . You could have that best load in the world , if your form is poor your groups would mimic a shotgun with double O . As I posted from chambering and firing a round to the next is around one minute . Being I loading one at a time I have to settle in behind the rifle to that comfort level before the next press. Works for me . I'm not good enough to win any contests but I can hit what I'm aiming at .

Chris

[hounddawg]

just looking at the pic on the original post you can see which shots were pulled because of form comparing the top target to the bottom

on the time thing the wind flags tell me when to pull the trigger. Shooting for groups without wind flags is a waste of ammo and barrel life. Go to the big box hardware store and drop a 20 dollar bill on some neon boundary tape and a few fiberglass driveway poles if you are on a budget and want something fancier then devote a couple of evenings in the shop and make your own

[cw308]

dawg
Some of my shooting buddies use flags , I more of a prima Dona only shoot on warm low wind days . I'm not shooting long only 200 yards with a 308 . When walking out to post my target I do pay attention to wind direction in areas meaning at 100 there maybe no wind but half way between 100 -2 there is a breeze from right to left . At the bench for some reason to feels straight out but like I say only a breeze.
I shoot with a comfort level , I'm sure wind is in there somewhere , I fire when it just feels right , hard to explain . Using flags to me would be like waiting for the race to start . Looking at the target , wind flags and keeping the hold , guess you get use to shooting that way too , It's how you practice . Plus another thing to blame for a crappy shot .

Chris

[Unclenick]

Yup. Bart's right. It's true. That's why ladders and groups are hard to resolve answers from a lot of the time. You are trying to see through the "noise" introduced by the shooter.


Ninosdemente,

I agree with Jetinteriorguy. The mean POI looks about the same from 36.1 to 37.1, so 36.6 is probably near the center. Increments of half a grain are a little large for this cartridge size. Dan Newberry's suggestion to keep increments between 0.7% and 1% of maximum fits my experience with how quickly some powders can skip over a sweet spot. That would be about 0.3 grains per step with the load you have. But I also don't see a clear reason to shoot more unless you want a more exact definition of the center of the charge, and that's probably not very useful as changes in temperature will move it a little one way or the other anyway. The next thing to play with, if you want to play more, is changing the bullet seating to see if the groups tighten further.


Cw308,

If you like imposing a shot spacing routine on yourself, board member Hummer70 has pointed out that carbon in the primer pocket is still soft and loose right after firing. So if you take one of the Lee decapping rods for a Classic Lee Loader and its base or just a regular shell holder with you and a small hammer and a tuna can to collect the dust, you can decap on the bench after your case wipedown and have most of the crud just fall out. Hummer70 then wets the primer pocket with Ed's Red to keep the rest soft until he cleans the case. Mobile 1 oil works, too. Gunzilla is more aggressive. But even if you don't clean the cases, per se, that's the moment to run one of the screwdriver end cleaning tools in. That should give you a nice cooling break and let you spend more time at the range, all at once.

[cw308]

Uncle
I'll stick to my system , Hummer 70's system would take more time between shots and some of the time my wife is sitting in our car reading , more time wouldn't go over too well. I wet tumble so my brass looks like new after cleaning . My range time is around 1.5 hours , good enough for me .

Chris

[hounddawg]

@CW if you ever start using flags you will notice that the wind will run in cycles. Once you learn to use the flags your flyers will reduce dramatically. I mostly shoot at 300 - 800 on my practice but a accurate .22 at 100 with flags at 25, 50, and 75 is pure gold for wind practice. If you are using 168 gn bullets @ 2600 FPS in your .308 at 200 yards a 5 mph wind at 90 degrees to the bullet path will move the bullet 1.5 inches and even at 100 it will move .3 inches

each to their own though, as long as you are having fun. The OP is trying to improve his groups, just thought I would make a recommendation

[cw308]

dawg
When going for accuracy , cutting down all the variables is important , wind is a big part . I am amazed at the guys that read the wind to adjust there shots . I'm sure if I shot in a area that I could shoot long I would have got into using flags and reading the wind . I have a 5 disc set from MAGPUL DYNAMICS " THE ART OF THE PRECISION RIFLE " If I could shoot in a area like that , I would think I died and went to Heaven . I only shoot 168 Sierra MK's . Keep up the good work .
PS: I live in a area that my neighbor is a ping pong ball shot away , so I guess I should be thankful I can shoot at a 200 yard range .

Chris

[T. O'Heir]

Hard to not have a big stupid grin on your face when you shoot a one hole group. I'd have stopped at the 37.1 and sighted in.

[RC20]

ninosdemente:

What you do if you get a good load is purely up to you and how you feel.

I like to play and I am also per Bart B when he started, inconsistent (at least by my expectations and that is an arbitrary sub 5/8 MOA)

So, the fun can be in shooting small holes or the fun can be in the hunt or it can be a combination.

There is no right answer.

I like to experiment and shoot small groups so I am in the both camp.

If I was a match shooter and got a winner I would go with that and ride it till the horse dropped cause I really hate loosing (winning is ok but I really hate loosing)

[hounddawg]

one good group is luck 4 good groups is good gear and a steady hand. I loaded that jpg into Ontarget and did a composite of both 36.6 groups and both 37.1 groups. I did a guesstimate on the scale and used a bullet hole set the scale. For the entire 20 shots the group height was .44 MOA and had a CEP 95% .417. Even with the flyers the max spread was less than a MOA. Get a handle on the wind and mirage and that load is winner winner chicken dinner

once again, nice shooting