Hoping for EZ annealing

[NC FNS]

I’ve been reading the other multi-page thread on annealing, and the scope of that is way beyond what my free time and budget permits. By the way, thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
My issue is with 300 Blackout brass. I purchased some new Starline brass, and on the 3rd reloading, one case had the neck split. I figure it’s time to learn annealing so I can get more reloadings out of this batch of brass.

Would this simple scenario work:
Set my cases in a reloading tray, set that in a tray of water so that only the neck and a smidge of the remaining case are above the water, and blast away with a propane torch for a bit? I’m not sure how long to heat them, so any advice on that would be appreciated.

Thanks

[hounddawg]

Starline 300 AAC blackout brass runs about 30 cents per piece so with 3 reloads that would bring it down to 10 cents per firing. Odds are your bullets cost more than that. Lets make a assumption that by annealing you get six reloadings instead of three. That would save you a nickle a case. First thing to ask yourself is that really worth the time and trouble for you? If so read the linked article and pay attention to the DeSimone Explains Annealing with Powered Case-Holder and then use a cordless drill and socket to hold the case. Anneal after every firing. Starline is notoriously hard straight from factory so I am not surprised with the low number of firings. I use Starline in my 6.5 Grendel and replace every five to ten firings with no annealing. You might want to consider premium brass if you have a 100% recovery rate for fired cases

https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

or you could buy a AMP which would pay for itself in 30,000 cases, a Anniefor $500 so it would be cost effective after 10,000 cases, or a Annealeez for 300 which would get you down to 6000 cases to get to the break even point

[F. Guffey]

Would this simple scenario work:
Set my cases in a reloading tray, set that in a tray of water so that only the neck and a smidge of the remaining case are above the water, and blast away with a propane torch for a bit? I’m not sure how long to heat them, so any advice on that would be appreciated.

"neck and a smidge of the case is above the water.." The link says the old fashion way was to cover the bottom 1/3 to 1/2 of the case in water. And then they break into that routine most reloaders get into claiming all of the reasons 'it does not work'. A reloaders with shop skills should be able to glean through the available information for methods and or techniques that work. Many reloaders were annealing before the Internet, if they were not having success they would have quit.

And then it was not that long ago when most reloaders got all giggly about the salt methods; and then came all the reasons it does not work. And then there was the melted lead method, it reminds me of; PICK ME! PICK ME!

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

well I guess the next winter olympics will be held in Hades, I just agreed with FGuffy.

That link in my previous post and how Rich DeSimone and how he anneals with a plumbers torch and a drill and gets the tip of the necks red before he gives them a CLR bath for a hour sounds wackydoodle. Then you think he set a 5-shot IBS 1K world record with those wackydoodle cases

[Scorch]

You need
a propane torch ($15 at Harbor Freight)
a propane cylinder (the Harbor Freight torch comes with a cylinder already)
a bucket
water for the bucket
a lighter or matches
brass to be annealed

Light the torch (this is the hard part) and set it on its base within arm's reach
pick up the brass by the base
heat the neck area of the case in the torch's flame (you'll figure out how long, trust me)
drop the hot brass in the water (you'll be happy to let go of it)

Repeat as needed.

When you're done, dump the water (keep the brass)

Set the brass out to dry (overnight will do)

Quit trying to over-complicate things. You can do several hundred pieces of brass per hour, less time than it would take to stand the brass up in a tray of water and heat it then fish cases out. Sure, not as cool as an automated conveyor belt with plasma arc heating and cryogenic cooling, and it won't look great in a youtube video, but it works great. I recently annealed 200 45-90 brass to form to 40-70 WCF, took me almost 20 minutes.

[Unclenick]

NC FNS,

Splitting on a 3rd try is pretty early. Norma, for example, as part of their quality control, pulls sample cases intermittently from each run and checks to be sure they can be loaded and fired 10 times. An overly generous chamber could account for it being shorters, but three is so small it makes me wonder if, since they only have to narrow the .223 basic brass slightly to make the neck and shoulder of the Blackout, if they don't treat them like pistol brass which gets no final anneal (see this video of Starline's process from before they started making rifle brass). A phone call to Starline would answer that question and they would probably be interested to hear you are only getting two split-free loadings out of them.

Annealing from the standpoint of just reliably gripping the bullet and not having the case split is a matter of not under or over-annealing. As I mentioned in the other thread, simply getting the brass red hot caused the late Steve Herrett's brass to split. It weakens the brass too much. If I had no measuring tools and no melt pot or other equipment to regulate the temperature with and still needed to anneal, I would just go by the oxide coloration of the brass. Polish it in a tumbler so you can see the color clearly before you apply heat. It starts getting whitish looking under the flame and that's probably enough. Pull it and see that as it cools it doesn't darken past the appearance of unpolished military or Lapua case necks. You can experiment with getting it darker (hotter) if you want, but just be aware there comes a point when it is weakening and red hot seems to surpass that point if the exposure isn't extremely brief as only an induction annealer can really control. If you look at the videos of cartridge case manufacturing annealing, you don't see red heat; at least, not in normal ambient light conditions.

[hounddawg]

Nick I have been working with metal since I was 15 and never heard of anything splitting becasue it was too malleable. That just is not how metal works. Heating till till you got a glow on the neck in a darkened room was the state of the art annealing technology ten years ago. All the top competitors used the method. You know that as well as I do and there is a ton of stuff on the net io that subject. When I was shooting .308 that was the only way I knew to anneal, 15 + loadings and never a neck split on some old Lapua that was annealed using that method

earlier in the thread I posted how I took a scrap case and heated it till the neck was orange sized and measured it then seated that bullet and pulled it over a half a dozen times measuring the springback. The case was trash becasue of the case walls being softened too far down but the neck was just fine so I gotta call BS on that old wives tale

[NC FNS]

Thanks all for some great info. I reckon I’ll dedicate a few of 20 case groups to testing some of the methods mentioned - 10 annealed and 10 not (as a control group). Probably oughta buy new brass for a fresh start. Should be interesting. Might be a year or 2, but I’ll post results when I have them.

[T. O'Heir]

"...in a reloading tray..." Take 'em out of that and just use the pan of water up to just below the shoulder(that's as precise as it needs to be. Rocket science it ain't.) The idea is to heat the cases until the brass visually changes colour then tip 'em over. You can't tip 'em in a reloading tray.
"...on the 3rd reloading..." That is kind of soon, but the 'when' part isn't precise either.
"...a glow on the neck..." That's too hot. Red hot is far too hot.

[hounddawg]

..a glow on the neck..." That's too hot. Red hot is far too hot.

and why would you say that? The link above quotes a guy who held the 1000 yard record at the time of that writing and he says he heated his cases until the neck at the case mouth had a red glow. How many 1000 yard benchrest records have you held ? Any degrees in metallurgy perhaps ? Or is this just what Bubba Hicks down at the hardware store/gunshop told you?


edit - if heating till the necks are dull red are good enough for this guy - (see my first post in this thread) I am pretty damn sure it does not "ruin" the brass or make it too ductile

Rich DeSimone - https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek050.html

[RC20]

Technically I have a couple of problems with the write-up. The in depth part is right but the preliminary is wrong. Weird.

https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

First and foremost is that Lapua is held up as an example of how annealing works and it should be done. Hmmm. All Brass is annealed, most mfgs polished off. So, its presented as a feature when in fact its a deliberate look by Lapua (bless them no issue). But to conflate that indicates someone does not understand what they are talking about.

The next part talks about returning to factory original. So I assume this means dead soft though you can't bring back dead soft by firing it so in fact they really do not know what the original neck and shoulder condition is pr was for factory brass.

But then they go onto do a very good description including the fact that 750-800 for a few secs is right and that if you see an orange glow the case is 950 degrees which is not right (the duck goes down in flames and just destroyed your argument thank you. )

What did say is a case color change with the blueing silvery blush.

well I guess the next winter Olympics (spell fixed) will be held in Hades, I just agreed with FGuffy.

No, that will be the day you admit you don't get it.

[hounddawg]

RC20 - that article was written ten or more years ago and is typical of the annealing that was considered state of the art at the time. A lot of records were set using cases annealed with the dark room and heat them til the tips of the neck turn red method. Maybe when you set a few world records you can tell me how you did it and I will pay attention.

as far as getting it I think you are the one with their head in the sand. Did you read the part where he had heated his necks to dull red after every firing and set the world record with cases that were on their 8th firing. Did you read about the tests performed by metallurgists under controlled conditions in labs and measured using lab grade equipment and methods and how heating to 750 for a few seconds caused almost no changes in the metals softness.

You're really the one who does not get it. Your main "authority" is a guy who recycled military surplus ammo in his barn and whose test equipment was a $50 microscope he bought on EBAY. He talked you into spending a lot of money on a tool that had originally been designed for bending glass tubes for neon lights and now you have to defend your purchase and methods.

[scatterbrain]

Reguardless of the method you use to relieve the stress in your cartridge there is one common element to remember: you MUST do the same thing every time, same heat, same distance from the heat, same time at the correct heat, same depth of water, same darkness of the room, same drill speed, etc. If it's not the same the results will not be the same and you have not accomplished what you thought you had. I've tried.

[hounddawg]

same time at the correct heat, same depth of water, same darkness of the room, same drill speed, etc

So all those guys shooting NRA records back in the 2000's using cases annealed with a drill and a plumbers torch could do all that. I am amazed.
from tuesdays range session 6 CM, Alpha cases on 5th firing, 37.5gn H4350

5 shots, 1/4 MOA group at 300 yards velocities were 2912, 2801,2795, 2912, 2795

ES of 17FPS, SD of 8FPS

You think maybe these cases are ruined, should I toss them ? To me they look to be fine but I did not use a induction annealer on them so they must be ruined according to you and RC20

[Unclenick]

Hounddawg, the rude dismissive attitude in the last question in post 10's first paragraph is written after the manner of a troll. Your previous answer was perfectly civil, and I don't know what changed, but troll-like behavior is unacceptable on this board. Trolling is against the board rules. Cut it out. And while you are at it, you might refrain from suggesting other people need qualifications you yourself do not have to post on this topic. That just read as a self-important snark attack. Please stick with being civil.

I will explain my comment about overheating, briefly, as I oversimplified and gave the wrong impression about the splitting issue. There are two reasons to avoid overheating. First, as I've described in numerous past posts, it factors in to how many reloading cycles you can get without neck splitting. Getting too few cycles is the OP's original complaint. I say to be careful of overheating because of an observed pattern reported by Barker, starting with Milek and Herrett's experience with red-heated necks, is that they split after too few reloading cycles. I did not make this clear in my previous post—my fault—but it is NOT that soft, large-grained brass splits, but that it re-work hardens too quickly and then splits, while harder, finer-grained brass outlasts it. DeSimone is reannealing every load cycle, so he would not see this phenomenon even with significant extra heat application.

The second reason to avoid overheating is the OP is shooting a cartridge intended for the AR platform. My assumption is that he is using an AR-style rifle which means the brass has to withstand rapid feeding. From William Dresser's 1962 American Rifleman article:

"Most reloaders excessively heat the necks, causing formation of a large-grain brass structure, extreme softness, and lack of "spring", or ability to hold the bullets in the necks. This results from the usual advice, "heat the case necks until red hot and then knock the cases over into water". While the necks so treated are, indeed, unlikely to crack, they may be so soft that they can be squeezed together between the fingers…"

I have intentionally softened necks to this degree in the past. Such necks will bend on a feed ramp. Shoulders that soft can collapse and become too wide to chamber. DeSimone is single-loading a bolt-action rifle, so his cases don't need to withstand rapid stripping from a magazine and slamming up a load ramp, and so, again, he could overheat to a significant degree and not see the same problem.

I will add that I don't actually know that DeSimone is over-heating. He works in low light, as one should using that system. In normal light, glow is apparent at the Draper point, which Draper established as 977°F way back in 1847. But if you cast bullets and have turned off the light while the melt is hot, you'll know you can see it glow at nowhere near that temperature. Hearth.com puts the lowest light glow visibility at 752°F. Chapman's Workshop Technology puts it way down at 709°F. Different people's eyes won't have the same light sensitivity, making the actual temperature he's reached impossible to know without measurement.

[F. Guffey]

that got started whole the local black smith stood under the spreading chestnut tree, but, he did his best work inside the shop with low light. After that came the color heat chart. the heat chart works under low light.

And then there was the reloader that picked up the horse shoe that was in a sand pile. The reloader dropped the horse shoe faster than he picked it up. the smith suggested the shoe was hot and the reloaders explained to the smith it did not take him long to look at it.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

When someone makes a statement in a discussion I just like to know how they came to that conclusion. If you consider questioning the source trolling then ban me, delete my account. To me making a statement and calling it a fact with no supporting evidence is trolling.

To say that heating the necks to dull red ruins or that you need to anneal at all you have to ignore history. Record groups were being shot by marksmen long before the first case was ever annealed by an induction coil and for years the plumbers torch in a dimly lit shop was considered state of the art case prep among the national level shooters

Myself I like reason and science and science shows me that a full anneal of the case neck does not ruin anything and it is scientifically impossible anneal to even a small degree at 750F for 5 seconds. That is science backed up by studies not hearsay.

I have yet to see you or anyone else arguing the other side present a single scientific study or even documented anecdotal evidence otherwise. On the other hand I have presented link to support my statements. I guess sometimes just telling the truth is trolling if it is slaying sacred cows

[RC20]

You quoted link says orange is 950 degrees and you do not want to go there.

Then you deny your same posted link

From my perspective all you are after is confirmation bias and if it disagrees with that, you then say your posted link is wrong.

That is not science nor fact of any sort.

I don't disagree with your right to be wrong, I do disagree with you trying to represent it as fact. Frankly I think you know better and are better and I don't comprehend how a good mind can go so siwash.

[hooligan1]

I use the "Candle Method" as same as Scorch referred to.
Only I use a pan and a wet wash rag to cool the necks and then I stand them up in a case block, and he's right, you will know, sure as hell when to let loose.
My Creedmoor uses annealed brass after every firing best. Everything else I load gets it once every 3 firings.
Memory doesn't recall which issue but last year John Barsness wrote an article in Handloader Magazine on annealing, it talks about a fella who uses candle method everytime he sized his bench gun brass, seemed to work for him.
My brass doesn't get hot enough to glow red or any other color really, but it leaves nothing to be desired if done properly.

[hounddawg]

RC20 remember our previous argument last week on this ridiculous subject

https://vacaero.com/information-reso...dge-brass.html

Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F. Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes. Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.

these tests were performed in a controlled lab environment by a metallurgist with decades of experience, yet you insist that in seven seconds you are softening the case necks by heating to 750F as measured by a mark from a templaq crayon

On the heating necks to a dull red is more anecdotal. The fact is that for 10 or 20 years the long range and benchrest shooters did the drill/torch/red glow routine and set many a world record. That would hard to do with cases that were "ruined" as you and others here like to put it.

Me I get SD's below 10 and ES's below 20 ,and zero neck splits on my cases after 10 reloadings with no annealing at all

[Unclenick]

https://vacaero.com/information-reso...dge-brass.html

... While figure 10 shows a dramatic drop in hardness starting at about 500°F. Don't leave that out. Assuming the veracity of the author, that makes it pretty clear something happens at that temperature that the author apparently doesn't see in the microstructure, but can obviously measure.

Originally Posted by hounddawg

When someone makes a statement in a discussion I just like to know how they came to that conclusion. If you consider questioning the source trolling then ban me, delete my account. To me making a statement and calling it a fact with no supporting evidence is trolling.

You come across as a reasonably intelligent, if inflexible person, so I am having great difficulty believing you are genuinely that obtuse. I expect you know darn well I was not referring to any legitimate question about sources or anything else. I was referring to this needlessly snotty statement:

How many 1000 yard benchrest records have you held ? Any degrees in metallurgy perhaps ? Or is this just what Bubba Hicks down at the hardware store/gunshop told you?

Your post #7 disputed what I said, which was just fine. The last one suggests anyone who hasn't got a degree in metallurgy or hasn't set a world record is just not qualified to discuss the subject with you, even though you don't have those qualifications yourself. I had edited my statement down to the point it didn't really communicate what I meant. My bad. But then in post #10 it's suddenly like a different person is writing your post for you and doing so uncivilly. That's what I objected to, not factual content, and there is nothing you can claim you were doing that will put lipstick on that pig. Saying things intended to get someone's goat or pick a fight or even just to feel superior in your own mind are what the board rules mean by trolling behavior, and it's the board's definition that matters. Just behave civilly in the future and leave the put-downs off the page. That's all I ask.

[hounddawg]

While figure 10 shows a dramatic drop in hardness starting at about 500°F. Don't leave that out. Assuming the veracity of the author, that makes it pretty clear something happens at that temperature that the author apparently doesn't see in the microstructure, but can obviously measure.

I have no idea where figure 10 is, the article I am looking at stops at figure 8a and 8b
however for figure 5a and 5B he provides the following commentary

Figure 5a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu-30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, and annealed: 260°C (500°F) for 30 min. did not visibly alter the cold worked FCC grains (note slip lines) and annealing twins; 371°C (700°F) for 30 min. produced partial recrystallization. Tint etched with Klemm’s I reagent (Originals at 100X, crossed polarized light plus sensitive tint).

If you are not recrystallizing you are not relieving stress and no reduction of neck splitting can occur

At 900 degrees for 15 minutes the following figure 7a

Figures 7a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, annealed at 482°C (900°F): – 15 min. has fully recrystallized the FCC grain structure, but it has a duplex grain size distribution

I think we both agree that any treatment time of 15 minutes would ruin the case as far as it ever being shot again.

to finish I don't believe a degree in metallurgy is not required but it does indicate that one knows what they are talking about in terms of metal annealing and I would tend to take their word of an accountant or air conditioning repairman or even a local gunsmith on such matters

The historical evidence on heating the necks till red is hard to avoid. You know as well as I do that heating the necks till red was the thing to do for many many years. Not all the shooters set records but I would venture to say that most who were setting records were annealing their cases in dark rooms with a plumbers torch.

Me I quit annealing altogether well over a year ago and my groups/velocities have not suffered in the slightest nor has my case life. You guys want to waste your time an money that is fine but some new guys might want to spend their money and effort on things that will really improve their practice

[RC20]

Me I quit annealing altogether well over a year ago and my groups/velocities have not suffered in the slightest nor has my case life. You guys want to waste your time an money that is fine but some new guys might want to spend their money and effort on things that will really improve their practice

And there in is the crux. You have taken a mission upon your shoulder and have become as bothersome as the knock on the door and who refuses a no thank you.

If you want to make your point you can do it in 4 lines (less?)

I have tried it and it does nothign for me and I do not believe it does anything for anyhone and does not work

(feel free to cut that and paste and hold as a doc and just place it in the response.

Others have stated what it does for them and why. That is equally valid.

There is a preponderance of evidence that says it does do that and comments thrown out like heated to red hot for low many years (though there is NO data on that is there?)

The Candle method works for stated reasons and it had some following (and still does).

Or you could say I tried it, it did nothign for me, I don't believe in it nor think it works and others have a different view.

Clearly you have set your view in concrete. You then do confirmation bias to try to convince others (or maybe even yourself).

Science is not about coming up with a theory and then selectively using only the data that confirms it. Shades of the human decent wars where they defend it to the death. Its not about right or wrong its about correct and being open to information be it up your happy ally or not.

[hounddawg]

problem is RC20 is that you have no scientific data to support your theory, none, nada, zip, zilch. I am not selectively using data I am using all the data that is available. Unfortunate for you that does not support your buying that Annie. I have asked you over and over that if you have any lab based scientific study that shows any change in a metals softness or grain structure at 750F and so far no links. That tells me you have nothing except opinion and I don't base large purchases on opinion.

But you are right I quit and won't ever bother with it again becasue I can read and learn and I have learned that it is worthless even when done perfectly. I can observe my results and can say confidently I can load precision ammo with the best. I do it week in and week out and has nothing to do with annealing. Annealing is worthless. Now if I could just get a handle on the wind lol

[RC20]

I don't have to know how electricity is generated to use it.

Nor do I have to know how to calculate orbital mechanics to accept the Earth goes around the sun (while the whole shebang solar system is sailing thorough space at 25K or some such)

I don't have to know how a Primer is made to use it either.

So by your logic its pure faith that I pull the trigger and it goes phhhhttt (or Kaboom with powder in the case)?

Gravity, yep its there and I can't begin to explain it. Dark matter? well the boys and girls that know say its there and they don't know what it is. I guess that makes it wrong too (and maybe it is, but something does not add up out there)

So yea, by others experience I can believe and accept along with a considerable amount of science that Uniclenick has presented as well as Jeehpammer (not to mention case mfgs annealing the case neck and shoulder) to go with that.

They still don't have an explanation for electron flow in solid state devices. But by golly you can make it do marvelous things (including this typing and Forum)