*Shudders* ... Check out this thread

pax · February 25, 2001, 10:27 PM

Check out the link below. It's a thread on the CCW forums. Read the first post only, consider what you would do, and post it below.

http://www.ccwforums.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000026.html

Then after you have read the first post only and posted your response here, read the rest of the thread.

Just FYI, my answer was wrong and I'm still shaking.

pax

Christopher II · February 25, 2001, 11:14 PM

A bad situation, at best.

I'd assume that there is at least one other BG in the house with my wife. So, the possibilty of a hostage situation rears it's ugly head. Doing a Ride of the Valkeryes bit through the front door will likely get myself and my wife killed.

First, there's a visibly armed man on my property, walking towards me. That's a lethal threat. Shoot him until he's down. Reload and holster my weapon.

Next step is hit the speed-dial on my cellphone (by the time I have a house and a wife, I'll damn sure have a cellphone) and summon the police. Mention that shots have been fired and we need an EMT. Describe myself and inform the dispatcher that I'm armed. Tell them to get the cops out here NOW!

Then get my ass down behind some hard cover and wait for the cops. The temptation to kick the door down and start clearing the house would be overwhelming, but dumb. My own life is worth pretty close to nothing, but I'm not getting my loved ones killed because I let my machismo override my brain.

Now that I think about it, it might be a good idea to call one of the home phones to secure intelligence. If the wife answers, I could find out if she's okay, if there are additional BGs about, etc. It might be worthwhile to work out some codewords beforehand with the wife, in case the goblins are listening in.

Later,
Chris.

Edited after reading the rest of the posts.

Whew. Looks like I blew it. OTOH, so did he. I hope that my kids would show some freaking common sense, particularly knowing that Dad carries a gun. "I just never thought about that..." is right.

Dropping the gun and taking off the ski mask when Dad comes driving up would be a sound thing to do.

Things aren't always what they seem.

Tim Burke · February 26, 2001, 09:32 AM

He's ignoring me? Does he think I'm going to ignore him? Something is strange. Exit the car, keep the car between me and both the house & Mr. Ski mask. Check his car for occupants. Draw and challenge from behind cover.If Mr. Ski mask fights, shoot him. Otherwise, have him drop his gun, remove his mask, and prone out. Maintain 360 awareness. Interrogate. Now use cell phone to call for help, since you have some semblance of control, and a better idea of what the situation is.

TB., NC

Tim Burke · February 26, 2001, 09:54 AM

OK, I've gone back and read the rest of the posts. I'm not unhappy with my reply, but I still don't know what the real story was.
The initial post had a post script which indicated that the perp got away. The nature of the crime suggested some sort of a warning. The last post I saw explained why Mr. Ski mask was ignoring me, but seemed to contradict the original post.
In any case, given Mr. Ski mask's curious demeanor, I don't think it appropriate to shoot him straight away. I'm reluctant to let him get past me, because then I have to get between him and the house to go inside. The fact that my wife is still screaming tells me little but that she is still alive. I am suspicious that there are still BGs inside.
Any intel gained from Mr. Ski mask is suspect, but there is no harm in asking.

TB., NC

Cheapo · February 26, 2001, 11:23 AM

Call 911 from inside the car, give description of masked man, his apparent vehicle and the license place to the operator. I have optics in the car to assist this.

Give 911 operator the sitrep, including the screams of a distressed woman being still audible and a description of myself.

BECAUSE THIS MAY BE A FAMILY MEMBER AND THIS IS MY HOME, I would then put the cell phone in my pocket (line still open), place the pistol in both my hands and thoroughly scan the area, expecially any viewpoints from within the house.

If clear, approach the house from the least visible route but approaching the sounds of the woman's voice. Use any hard cover I am aware of in the structure or anywhere found.

While maintaining a very active scan of my surroundings, shout for a report from the woman, identifying myself by whatever term my wife is most likely to recognize (no, I'm not telling--good time for code words!)

What to do next depends entirely on what report the woman gives me--including whether she *really* is my wife! This is a decision point, and any actions beyond this cannot be stated without knowing what answer, if any, comes from my home.

Oh yeah, if moved upon by the Spirit, I may very likely MOVE to a different vantage point immediately after yelling for a report.

Now, on to the rest of the thread.

Spectre · February 26, 2001, 04:07 PM

If I have a loved one in the house, try to stop me.

CITADELGRAD87 · February 26, 2001, 04:51 PM

OK, first things first, I cheated and read it all. It did not change my initial impression.

First of all, blasting in broad daylight, outside, at a "general" threat never was a viable option, no matter what the option.(See my frequent posts re judicious use of deadlty force given the potential for civil suit)

I would have done what the poster did, draw down and order a halt, no way I let the guy flank me or come in after I go in. Restraining the suspect, you ask? Prone him out and whack him in the gourd, would have been my plan.

When it turned out to be my kid, well, I guess he would have learned a valuable lesson about awareness of how bizarre behavior and dress can affect those around you.

Glamdring · February 27, 2001, 11:47 PM

I think it is pretty clear that a person wearing a mask with a gun in hand is a immediate threat. I would stop them as quickly as possible. Then enter the house quickly [not pieing all the corners].

BTW "Full Moon" started that thread..and stated that the goblin had pistol whipped the wife after tieing her up.

It was "jjcahill" that stated the blip about person in a mask and carrying a gun was his son.

Tamara · February 28, 2001, 12:50 AM

You'll note that "Full Moon's" post count was 1.

Glamdring · February 28, 2001, 10:16 AM

Tamera: So? jjcahill's post count was low also. Seems to me like jjcahill was offering some different possible twists based on the scenario Full Moon posted. Who knows if the scenario is real or not? I don't think that matters much.

I was surprised though that so many people would challenge a masked person walking out of their house with gun in hand to the sound of screams.

I think a armed, masked man, with screams from one's wife/SO would certainly be enough for "common man" to assume all is not right.

Tim Burke · February 28, 2001, 02:05 PM

Quote:

I think a armed, masked man, with screams from one's wife/SO would certainly be enough for "common man" to assume all is not right.

Agreed. That is why I would have drawn my gun and challenged him. The fact that the masked guy is ignoring me would be enough to cast some doubt into the assumption that the guy needs to be shot immediately. In any case, as long as the guy is ignoring me, I can't very well claim that he is putting me in jeopardy. Before I can shoot, AOJP must be met.

TB., NC

Glamdring · March 1, 2001, 12:02 AM

I guess my concern would be more about my family's survival and well being than about if a jury would feel that shooting a armed, masked man leaving my house while my wife is screaming was not reasonable/justifiable.

The longer you play with the masked man the longer your wife will be going without help. And if there is another goblin inside, then challenging the one outside and/or trying to hold him is going to be difficult wihtout exposing your flanks or rear to an attack. Not to mention leaving your wife & family in the house to the tender mercy of whoever might be inside.

Have you ever tried to hold someone at gunpoint? I haven't but I have worked security and assisted in cuffing someone a couple of times [And watched cops cuff more people]. Unless you are a LOT stronger than the goblin it will probably take two or more people to cuff him if he just passively resists, unless you resort to beating him. And as a typical CCW person you probably won't have cuffs on you in the first place.

But say the masked man with gun in hand does what you tell him to do when you challenge him, then what? What do you do if another goblin comes out? What do you do if you hear gun shots inside the house? What do you do if your wife's screams stop suddenly? What do you do if the goblin decides after a 30 minute wait that he is going to leave?

I guess to me in a situation like this you should either take immediate action yourself to aid your family/loved ones or create distance & time while calling for help and running to cover. I feel that if you challenge someone with a gun in hand you are making about the worst choice by the odds. You are confronting someone who is armed so there is a very real chance that you could get shot, but you have given up the initiative by challenging him. If you call 911 & then challenge you have given him enough time to empty his into you at least once. If you challenge and gain control of him & then try to call 911 you have to juggle a phone and a gun and a goblin plus listen to your wife screaming and watch for other goblins.

BTW What is plan B if 911 is busy? Or they hang up on you? Have had both happen in security when LEO was my backup [not meant as a slam to LEO, I know that LE in that city could probably have used at least another couple hundred officers]

Dr.Rob · March 1, 2001, 03:44 AM

Ive never posted on this forum, i figured it was all karate chopping and judo moves..

But that scenario.. I think i'd be hard pressed not to light the ski mask guy up where he stands and kick in the door sweeping and clearing the house as i went.

i've only 'cleared' a house once and i was scared as hell.. in fact it dawned on me after i did it that i should have left and called the cops and let Them clear the place. but in this scenario your SO is involved. All this well i'd call the guy out make sure it wasn't Bob the neighbor etc etc etc.. he has a gun, its broad daylight and he's in a ski mask and he's coming out of MY house.. hes a goblin.

I'd imagine I'd like to get out of the car, if i don't opt to hit him WITH the car. Out of the car i can move more effectively, in the car i'm a stationary target. If his friends are outside who cares.. I'm back in Casa Rob in moments.. get the SO to the safe room and start making barricades.. call the cops when the smoke clears.

Cybeq · March 1, 2001, 06:50 AM

After having read the first post only I have to say I would write down the guy's license plate number and then go inside to check on my wife / call the police. The reason I wouldn't immediately go inside is because you can still hear screaming so at least you know she's alive. The perp is leaving so confronting him with lethal force is not an appropriate action. You could try to subdue him but since he is armed that doesn't seem too wise. Now let me read the rest....

After having read the whole thing: It seems all is well. I have a few rules for the application of deadly force and one of them is to NOT shoot a fleeing bad guy. He is no longer a threat. Once a gun is involved things get very serious. A firearm escalates tensions. I try to keep a cool head.

CITADELGRAD87 · March 1, 2001, 12:39 PM

Look, I love my family,too.

The fact remains you can't just shoot this guy simply because it seems to be more convenient than letting him go. If he's truly "leaving," and he's no longer an IMMEDIATE threat to anyone, game over, he gets a pass on getting ventilated. ( I mean you can't SHOOT him, not that you can't do anything)

The assumption here is whoever is screaming needs you now, but they don't NEED you to shoot this guy as part of the help they need.

As I said, I think it makes most sense to try to detain him long enough to beat him unconscious, if it can be done with little risk and very quickly. If not, he gets away.

Many here are, understandably, confusing defense of others with revenge for a presumed transgression.

Fact is, the rules change when you decide to use deadly force, and while I agree with the adage "judged by 12 rather than carried by 6," those 12 WILL convict you if you shoot the guy because you couldn't think how else to keep him from getting away.

Art Eatman · March 1, 2001, 06:11 PM

CACahill's scenario would never come close to crossing my mind: My son is 37 and lives in Germany. Anybody ski-masker with a gun who exits my home, leaving my wife screaming, is a Bad Guy--no doubt whatsoever in my mind.

My home is rural and isolated. Whatever story I tell is the only version which will be heard.

, Art

nbk2000 · March 2, 2001, 05:19 AM

I'd have been in deep s*** because I would have shot the ski masked, gun toting, leaving MY house while my wife is screaming SOB on the spot, no questions asked. Of course, I also would have killed my own son.

Mistaken identities and accidently killing your own are sad facts of life, but lack of common sense and acting and dressing in a provocative manner (ski mask and gun) would be a mitigating factor in the trial. After all, what else is a person to think in a situation like that? Hopefully my teens would have better sense knowing that dad carries.

What would a cop think in the same situation? In many instances, police are authorized to use deadly force to stop a fleeing (even if walking) suspect if they have reason to believe a serious felony has been committed. I would certainly have believed some serious stuff had just happened and the person responsible was leaving.

Trying to restrain at gun point is stupid. That ties you down and makes you vulnerable to a possible second BG. Deal with the first BG in quick manner, and get to the wife ASAP. After you get her out safely, call the cops. If there's a second BG in the house, he either gets away or the cops catch him. Either way me and my wife are out of danger.

February 26, 2001, 04:51 PM	#7
CITADELGRAD87 Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2000 Posts: 432	HUH???? OK, first things first, I cheated and read it all. It did not change my initial impression. First of all, blasting in broad daylight, outside, at a "general" threat never was a viable option, no matter what the option.(See my frequent posts re judicious use of deadlty force given the potential for civil suit) I would have done what the poster did, draw down and order a halt, no way I let the guy flank me or come in after I go in. Restraining the suspect, you ask? Prone him out and whack him in the gourd, would have been my plan. When it turned out to be my kid, well, I guess he would have learned a valuable lesson about awareness of how bizarre behavior and dress can affect those around you.

February 28, 2001, 12:50 AM	#9
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Glamdring; You'll note that "Full Moon's" post count was 1. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

February 25, 2001, 10:27 PM	#1
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Check out the link below. It's a thread on the CCW forums. Read the first post only, consider what you would do, and post it below. http://www.ccwforums.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000026.html Then after you have read the first post only and posted your response here, read the rest of the thread. Just FYI, my answer was wrong and I'm still shaking. pax

February 25, 2001, 11:14 PM	#2
Christopher II Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 2,349	A bad situation, at best. I'd assume that there is at least one other BG in the house with my wife. So, the possibilty of a hostage situation rears it's ugly head. Doing a Ride of the Valkeryes bit through the front door will likely get myself and my wife killed. First, there's a visibly armed man on my property, walking towards me. That's a lethal threat. Shoot him until he's down. Reload and holster my weapon. Next step is hit the speed-dial on my cellphone (by the time I have a house and a wife, I'll damn sure have a cellphone) and summon the police. Mention that shots have been fired and we need an EMT. Describe myself and inform the dispatcher that I'm armed. Tell them to get the cops out here NOW! Then get my ass down behind some hard cover and wait for the cops. The temptation to kick the door down and start clearing the house would be overwhelming, but dumb. My own life is worth pretty close to nothing, but I'm not getting my loved ones killed because I let my machismo override my brain. Now that I think about it, it might be a good idea to call one of the home phones to secure intelligence. If the wife answers, I could find out if she's okay, if there are additional BGs about, etc. It might be worthwhile to work out some codewords beforehand with the wife, in case the goblins are listening in. Later, Chris. Edited after reading the rest of the posts. Whew. Looks like I blew it. OTOH, so did he. I hope that my kids would show some freaking common sense, particularly knowing that Dad carries a gun. "I just never thought about that..." is right. Dropping the gun and taking off the ski mask when Dad comes driving up would be a sound thing to do. Things aren't always what they seem.

February 26, 2001, 09:32 AM	#3
Tim Burke Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 1999 Posts: 551	He's ignoring me? Does he think I'm going to ignore him? Something is strange. Exit the car, keep the car between me and both the house & Mr. Ski mask. Check his car for occupants. Draw and challenge from behind cover.If Mr. Ski mask fights, shoot him. Otherwise, have him drop his gun, remove his mask, and prone out. Maintain 360 awareness. Interrogate. Now use cell phone to call for help, since you have some semblance of control, and a better idea of what the situation is. TB., NC

February 26, 2001, 09:54 AM	#4
Tim Burke Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 1999 Posts: 551	OK, I've gone back and read the rest of the posts. I'm not unhappy with my reply, but I still don't know what the real story was. The initial post had a post script which indicated that the perp got away. The nature of the crime suggested some sort of a warning. The last post I saw explained why Mr. Ski mask was ignoring me, but seemed to contradict the original post. In any case, given Mr. Ski mask's curious demeanor, I don't think it appropriate to shoot him straight away. I'm reluctant to let him get past me, because then I have to get between him and the house to go inside. The fact that my wife is still screaming tells me little but that she is still alive. I am suspicious that there are still BGs inside. Any intel gained from Mr. Ski mask is suspect, but there is no harm in asking. TB., NC

February 26, 2001, 11:23 AM	#5
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Call 911 from inside the car, give description of masked man, his apparent vehicle and the license place to the operator. I have optics in the car to assist this. Give 911 operator the sitrep, including the screams of a distressed woman being still audible and a description of myself. BECAUSE THIS MAY BE A FAMILY MEMBER AND THIS IS MY HOME, I would then put the cell phone in my pocket (line still open), place the pistol in both my hands and thoroughly scan the area, expecially any viewpoints from within the house. If clear, approach the house from the least visible route but approaching the sounds of the woman's voice. Use any hard cover I am aware of in the structure or anywhere found. While maintaining a very active scan of my surroundings, shout for a report from the woman, identifying myself by whatever term my wife is most likely to recognize (no, I'm not telling--good time for code words!) What to do next depends entirely on what report the woman gives me--including whether she really is my wife! This is a decision point, and any actions beyond this cannot be stated without knowing what answer, if any, comes from my home. Oh yeah, if moved upon by the Spirit, I may very likely MOVE to a different vantage point immediately after yelling for a report. Now, on to the rest of the thread.

February 26, 2001, 04:07 PM	#6
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	If I have a loved one in the house, try to stop me.

February 27, 2001, 11:47 PM	#8
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	I think it is pretty clear that a person wearing a mask with a gun in hand is a immediate threat. I would stop them as quickly as possible. Then enter the house quickly [not pieing all the corners]. BTW "Full Moon" started that thread..and stated that the goblin had pistol whipped the wife after tieing her up. It was "jjcahill" that stated the blip about person in a mask and carrying a gun was his son.

February 28, 2001, 10:16 AM	#10
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	Tamera: So? jjcahill's post count was low also. Seems to me like jjcahill was offering some different possible twists based on the scenario Full Moon posted. Who knows if the scenario is real or not? I don't think that matters much. I was surprised though that so many people would challenge a masked person walking out of their house with gun in hand to the sound of screams. I think a armed, masked man, with screams from one's wife/SO would certainly be enough for "common man" to assume all is not right.

March 1, 2001, 12:02 AM	#12
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	I guess my concern would be more about my family's survival and well being than about if a jury would feel that shooting a armed, masked man leaving my house while my wife is screaming was not reasonable/justifiable. The longer you play with the masked man the longer your wife will be going without help. And if there is another goblin inside, then challenging the one outside and/or trying to hold him is going to be difficult wihtout exposing your flanks or rear to an attack. Not to mention leaving your wife & family in the house to the tender mercy of whoever might be inside. Have you ever tried to hold someone at gunpoint? I haven't but I have worked security and assisted in cuffing someone a couple of times [And watched cops cuff more people]. Unless you are a LOT stronger than the goblin it will probably take two or more people to cuff him if he just passively resists, unless you resort to beating him. And as a typical CCW person you probably won't have cuffs on you in the first place. But say the masked man with gun in hand does what you tell him to do when you challenge him, then what? What do you do if another goblin comes out? What do you do if you hear gun shots inside the house? What do you do if your wife's screams stop suddenly? What do you do if the goblin decides after a 30 minute wait that he is going to leave? I guess to me in a situation like this you should either take immediate action yourself to aid your family/loved ones or create distance & time while calling for help and running to cover. I feel that if you challenge someone with a gun in hand you are making about the worst choice by the odds. You are confronting someone who is armed so there is a very real chance that you could get shot, but you have given up the initiative by challenging him. If you call 911 & then challenge you have given him enough time to empty his into you at least once. If you challenge and gain control of him & then try to call 911 you have to juggle a phone and a gun and a goblin plus listen to your wife screaming and watch for other goblins. BTW What is plan B if 911 is busy? Or they hang up on you? Have had both happen in security when LEO was my backup [not meant as a slam to LEO, I know that LE in that city could probably have used at least another couple hundred officers]

March 1, 2001, 03:44 AM	#13
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	Ive never posted on this forum, i figured it was all karate chopping and judo moves.. But that scenario.. I think i'd be hard pressed not to light the ski mask guy up where he stands and kick in the door sweeping and clearing the house as i went. i've only 'cleared' a house once and i was scared as hell.. in fact it dawned on me after i did it that i should have left and called the cops and let Them clear the place. but in this scenario your SO is involved. All this well i'd call the guy out make sure it wasn't Bob the neighbor etc etc etc.. he has a gun, its broad daylight and he's in a ski mask and he's coming out of MY house.. hes a goblin. I'd imagine I'd like to get out of the car, if i don't opt to hit him WITH the car. Out of the car i can move more effectively, in the car i'm a stationary target. If his friends are outside who cares.. I'm back in Casa Rob in moments.. get the SO to the safe room and start making barricades.. call the cops when the smoke clears.

March 1, 2001, 06:50 AM	#14
Cybeq Junior Member Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Oregon Posts: 4	After having read the first post only I have to say I would write down the guy's license plate number and then go inside to check on my wife / call the police. The reason I wouldn't immediately go inside is because you can still hear screaming so at least you know she's alive. The perp is leaving so confronting him with lethal force is not an appropriate action. You could try to subdue him but since he is armed that doesn't seem too wise. Now let me read the rest.... After having read the whole thing: It seems all is well. I have a few rules for the application of deadly force and one of them is to NOT shoot a fleeing bad guy. He is no longer a threat. Once a gun is involved things get very serious. A firearm escalates tensions. I try to keep a cool head.

March 1, 2001, 12:39 PM	#15
CITADELGRAD87 Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2000 Posts: 432	Look, I love my family,too. The fact remains you can't just shoot this guy simply because it seems to be more convenient than letting him go. If he's truly "leaving," and he's no longer an IMMEDIATE threat to anyone, game over, he gets a pass on getting ventilated. ( I mean you can't SHOOT him, not that you can't do anything) The assumption here is whoever is screaming needs you now, but they don't NEED you to shoot this guy as part of the help they need. As I said, I think it makes most sense to try to detain him long enough to beat him unconscious, if it can be done with little risk and very quickly. If not, he gets away. Many here are, understandably, confusing defense of others with revenge for a presumed transgression. Fact is, the rules change when you decide to use deadly force, and while I agree with the adage "judged by 12 rather than carried by 6," those 12 WILL convict you if you shoot the guy because you couldn't think how else to keep him from getting away.

March 1, 2001, 06:11 PM	#16
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	CACahill's scenario would never come close to crossing my mind: My son is 37 and lives in Germany. Anybody ski-masker with a gun who exits my home, leaving my wife screaming, is a Bad Guy--no doubt whatsoever in my mind. My home is rural and isolated. Whatever story I tell is the only version which will be heard. , Art

March 2, 2001, 05:19 AM	#17
nbk2000 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2000 Posts: 216	I'd have been in deep s*** because I would have shot the ski masked, gun toting, leaving MY house while my wife is screaming SOB on the spot, no questions asked. Of course, I also would have killed my own son. Mistaken identities and accidently killing your own are sad facts of life, but lack of common sense and acting and dressing in a provocative manner (ski mask and gun) would be a mitigating factor in the trial. After all, what else is a person to think in a situation like that? Hopefully my teens would have better sense knowing that dad carries. What would a cop think in the same situation? In many instances, police are authorized to use deadly force to stop a fleeing (even if walking) suspect if they have reason to believe a serious felony has been committed. I would certainly have believed some serious stuff had just happened and the person responsible was leaving. Trying to restrain at gun point is stupid. That ties you down and makes you vulnerable to a possible second BG. Deal with the first BG in quick manner, and get to the wife ASAP. After you get her out safely, call the cops. If there's a second BG in the house, he either gets away or the cops catch him. Either way me and my wife are out of danger.