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Old October 15, 2021, 04:21 PM   #1
DaleA
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Twin Cities a hotbed of full autos?

There’s been a few high-profile shootings in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minnesota) lately and now reports are coming in about an increase in fully automatic weapons here.

Quote:
Minneapolis Police records show, through the first nine months of 2021, more than 900 rounds of automatic gunfire have been detected using ShotSpotter technology, which is up from just 42 rounds of automatic gunfire through the first nine months of 2020.
https://kstp.com/news/minnesotas-atf...-guns/6267775/

Note: Shot Spotter technology is only in Minneapolis as the Mayor of St. Paul, Melvin Carter, declined to have the technology installed in his city even though the chief of police wanted it and there was a state grant that would have helped the city pay for it.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/1...crime-response

https://kstp.com/news/emails-show-st...-2019/5557966/

Here’s private video, maybe from a “ring” doorbell camera, of what might be full auto fire in a Minneapolis neighborhood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3k2vm-vuw0&t=10s

What to do about the problem? Well next month (November 2021) the voters of Minneapolis will have the chance to vote on ‘defunding the police’. Note: supporters of the measure now say that’s not what they meant when they had a big rally last year with a big banner saying “Defund the Police" on the speaker platform. No, they just want to "reimagine the police force" in Minneapolis.

Strangely enough, despite increase in “gun violence” in the Twin Cities, and perhaps an increase in fully automatic weapons, the anti-gun activists in the state, ‘Protect Minnesota’, have been unusually inactive lately. Their web site is:
Home | Protect Minnesota (protectmn.org)
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Old October 15, 2021, 05:54 PM   #2
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But full auto is illegal! Don't the criminals know that?

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Old October 15, 2021, 07:42 PM   #3
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Maybe they made a trust!
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Old October 15, 2021, 08:45 PM   #4
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Bumpstocks-R-Us for the win.
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Old October 15, 2021, 10:55 PM   #5
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Back in the 80s, Miami /Dade Co FL was regarded as the (illegal) machine gun capitol of the nation. Several folks boasted (in print) that $600 and a couple hours and you could get an automatic weapon.

Don't know why they moved north where its colder, but I guess even illegal gun dealers go where the demand is....
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Old October 16, 2021, 05:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Minneapolis Police records show, through the first nine months of 2021, more than 900 rounds of automatic gunfire have been detected using ShotSpotter technology
Well, that's your problem right there. Shot Spotter, to put it mildly, is useless. The process involves setting up microphones to detect things that sound like gunshots. If one of them is triggered, the audio is sent to an "analyst," who then decides whether it sounds like a gunshot and whether police should be informed.

As you can guess, false positive results are common. The company won't release any data about its technology or methods, so we don't know the criteria by which they're reporting this "automatic" gunfire. Is it several people shooting normal weapons at once? Is the analyst hearing echoes? We don't know.

Both the Chicago OIG and the ACLU have very real problems with the system, and those problems are largely rooted in how inaccurate it is.

So there's that part of it. As per the ATF claim that they're confiscating illegally-converted weapons, I also call shenanigans. Sure it happens, but it's rare. Much of the time, those "automatic" weapons are actually just semiautomatics.

(I have a friend who worked several years for the DA's office in a major urban county. It was part of his job to examine confiscated firearms to determine what violations had happened. Every supposed "machine gun" in the cage was just called that because it was an AK-47 or Tec-9 clone.)
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Old October 16, 2021, 09:07 AM   #7
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I can't help but wonder if that Shot Spotter can tell the difference between automatic gunfire and old cold Briggs and Stratons with buggered and tired valves trying to warm up and seat properly?
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Old October 16, 2021, 12:26 PM   #8
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There are a couple of points to consider about ANYTHING "recognizing" gunfire, automatic or otherwise.

There is no recording media that can accurately capture and reproduce the sound of gunfire. Therefore, any analysis the sound, whether done by a live human or a computer program, has to rely on an inaccurate recording, to begin with.

Another point is actual people, hear gunfire differently, due to all the variables involved (location, distance, reflectors, etc).

None of the sounds you and I hear as gunshots in movies or TV are actual gunshots, they are sound effects added in after filming. Because filming actual gunshots doesn't sound like gunshots.

Film/video shooting. ,22s and .44Magnums sound the same on tape (or nowdays, digital). Both sound like a "pop" not a gunshot. The magnum has a bigger pop but that's it.

SO, when its a computer program "hearing" gunshots, and counting the time between "shots" deciding what meets its program parameters is automatic gunfire,AND the maker won't,tell anyone what those parameters are, I have my doubts about the accuracy of the system.

I used to have a 74 Dodge truck with a 440 engine that needed work. It would, sometimes, backfire. And, we're not talking a little "pop" here, either.

Standing 15ft from the truck the backfire sounded to MY ear exactly like someone shooting a.357 Magnum, and it also made my ears ring exactly like the gunshot does.

I wonder how a microphone 40, 50, 100, 200yds??? away would interpret a slightly out of time Harley Davidson.
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Old October 16, 2021, 12:28 PM   #9
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Old October 16, 2021, 04:09 PM   #10
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I wonder if they're smuggled in by the Chinese? Decades ago right after the CA semi-auto ban, SFPD Officer Issac Espinoza was killed by a gangbanger armed with a selective fire, military grade AKM and not some recently banned semi-auto lookalike.

They would love for us to have our own civil war/strife.
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Old October 16, 2021, 05:21 PM   #11
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I have worked in and around the Twin Cities for over 20 years. It’s truly sad to see what has become of it. Heartbreaking is the term that comes to mind.
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Old October 17, 2021, 07:32 AM   #12
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Where are the gallant Ban All The Fun Everyday bois who are supposed to clamp down on illegal stuff?
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Old October 17, 2021, 10:10 AM   #13
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They might be in the same place they were back when our current Pres was VP and said "We don't have time for that"....
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Old October 17, 2021, 10:18 AM   #14
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I moved out of Mpls last February due to the rampant crime, so the election should be interesting. Klobuchar and Walz oppose defunding and Ellison & Omar do not. Very telling. There were only 2-3 City Council members that were against it, one of whom represents a district where my ex lives. She had her house vandalized, as well as other politicians.
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Old October 18, 2021, 04:34 PM   #15
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In Portland area and over in Vancouver there’s a multitude of cars that people have intentionally modified to backfire in rapid succession...
There’s constant reports of gunfire that can be attributed to those cars.
It is annoying and startling at times.
Probably what those sensors are hearing lol
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Old October 19, 2021, 08:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
I wonder if they're smuggled in by the Chinese?
I believe that is correct, for the most part.

Tons of these things were imported/sold. I'm pretty sure Ebay and possibly Amazon allowed it for quite some time.
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Old October 19, 2021, 08:49 PM   #17
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for those of us not in the know, would you mind telling us what those black/silver things ARE??
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Old October 20, 2021, 03:44 AM   #18
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gadget

Those are an end view to a backplate that fits Glock pistols that allegedly allows full auto fire. They were supposedly made in China and shipped and sold online as an "airsoft" accessory, or some similar story. Possession of one I believe is now considered the same as an auto sear.

Video recording is now every where, and I have seen two , maybe three recent online video's of 'bangers discharging full auto firearms. One involved the death of a Houston LEO. A "32-shot Glock" seems to be all the rage in the 'banger culture. So too a drum for Glock's. In at least two vids with oversize mags but semi fire, the oversize mag falls from the gun, allowing victim or officer too escape or return fire.
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Old October 21, 2021, 08:16 AM   #19
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As bamaranger said, those devices replace a Glock's slide backplate and allow select fire.

IIRC, YouTube had a couple of videos on the installation and use of these things.

They have been offered by a number of sites in the last few years.
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Old October 22, 2021, 04:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
would you mind telling us what those black/silver things ARE??
Thank you bamaranger and Destructo6 for the info.

(My thought was they looked like they might be a charging device for my wife's cell phone.)
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Old November 3, 2021, 02:33 AM   #21
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Well, here's some more info about the fully auto situation in the Twin Cities, Minnesota.

Quote:
The Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) told the City Council that people have been killed by fully automatic weapons in Minneapolis.

“There have been people that have been shot or even killed with automatic gunfire,” an analyst confirmed to the Minneapolis City Council during a meeting Thursday. “It’s a relatively new phenomenon that we haven’t seen in Minneapolis until the end of August and September,” the analyst added. “This is very, very recent.”

He said that the number of people shot or killed in the city by fully-automatic weapons this year is “10 or less.”
Quote:
Excluding the recently disclosed killings in Minneapolis, fully automatic weapons have only been used in four documented incidents that resulted in death over the last 86 years.
Reading the article I came away with the idea that they believe it is fully auto fire because the ShotSpotter technology says it is. The article did NOT mention any full auto guns recovered.

Posters on this forum have pointed up problems with ShotSpotter technology but it appears our police department is doubling down on the claim that there are machine guns in the Twin Cities.

The November 2, 2021 article can be found here:
https://alphanews.org/unprecedented-...matic-gunfire/
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Old November 3, 2021, 09:49 AM   #22
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Can SpotShotter differentiate between full auto and a Jake Brake?
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Old November 3, 2021, 09:51 AM   #23
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Reading the article I came away with the idea that they believe it is fully auto fire because the ShotSpotter technology says it is. The article did NOT mention any full auto guns recovered.
Even if a gun was not recovered, there should be plenty of brass on the ground
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Old November 3, 2021, 10:09 AM   #24
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ShotSpotter is ridiculous.
There have been multiple articles about its ineffectiveness over the last few months.
Basically red herring generator and a waste of LE time and resources.

It was also recently featured in another article, where charges filed against a man were based on ShotSpotter data that was wrong. So, the department manipulated the data to more closely align with the location of the suspect (whom was later proven innocent, based on security camera footage).
It is a tool that makes things worse, rather than better, especially when misused.

Quote:
I wonder if they're smuggled in by the Chinese? Decades ago right after the CA semi-auto ban, SFPD Officer Issac Espinoza was killed by a gangbanger armed with a selective fire, military grade AKM and not some recently banned semi-auto lookalike.

They would love for us to have our own civil war/strife.
While I find the overall tone of the recent articles about this subject to blow things grossly out of proportion and hyper inflate everything...

There are several 3D printed options today, that are exceptionally easy to obtain files for, print, and install - particularly for Glocks and AR-15s.

And while the average forum scroller might believe it to be highly improbable for whatever reasons they choose, the parts have gotten a lot of attention in the illegal gun market. This has been a hot topic in the 3D printing world, as of late, as well as in firearms law circles (both of which, I frequent). So, we have dug up as much data as possible, analyzed it to death, and found that it is actually true -- just not as rampant as the articles portray, unless a whole bunch of cases are buried or hidden.

The motivation is simple:
If you're going to be selling illegal firearms, why not church them up a bit with a $0.23 part that triples the value of the gun?

Many of us view dealers of stolen and illegal firearms to be idiotic, uneducated 'thugs' or 'trailer trash' that couldn't spell "3D printer" let alone use one. But that seems to be far from reality. They know what they're doing, and their customers love the product.



But, of course, China makes it really easy, too.
Like "fuel filter" suppressor kits, 'giggle switches' are now being advertised on major websites and shipped to your door. Absolutely illegal. But it is being done.
For example:
https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1453514694270996481

A friend of mine said this same part showed up in the '3rd party' listings with a Walmart.com search.
Attached Images
File Type: png giggler.png (431.3 KB, 129 views)
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Old November 3, 2021, 12:25 PM   #25
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, 'giggle switches' are now being advertised on major websites and shipped to your door. Absolutely illegal. But it is being done.
It may not be as illegal as you think. Right now. Obviously installing on on the gun would be manufacturing a full auto firearm. Doing that is not a crime, doing that WITHOUT proper ATF registration and paying the tax, IS A CRIME.

Possessing the switch alone, by itself, not installed on anything might not be a crime, or it might be, depending on circumstances and the interpretation of the applicable laws.

The ATF is very fond of the concepts of constructive possession and intent. There are cases in firearm (and other) laws where simply having all the components physically accessible to you (but NOT assembled into a functional device) is committing a crime. There are cases where an assembled device does NOT WORK but since your intent was to create a working device, you have committed a crime. And there are cases where just having the parts or having the information how to make the device and SOME of the parts is considered a crime.

And then, on top of that there are other nuances of law and the interpretation of law that could be determining factors.

For example, an item can be legal in a foreign country but not in the US (or in a specific part of the US) As a US citizen it may not be illegal for you to buy such an item, from a foreign source. BUT it MAY be illegal for you to take possession of that item within the legal jurisdiction of the United States.

SO, TECHNICALLY, selling them on the internet may not be a crime. Buying one on the internet MAY not be a crime. Having it shipped to your door in the US may not be a crime, but you receiving the item MAY BE a crime. It all depends on specific details.

here's an example of what principles might apply. Child pornography is not illegal in some countries. Downloading a file from there with child porn to your computer in the US, MIGHT be a crime (depending on specific circumstances). KEEPING that file once you know it has child porn in it, IS A CRIME in the US. The details matter to the law, and often it requires a court case to establish what is and isn't a "correct" interpretation of the law.

What irritates me most about this kind of thing, isn't the problem itself, or even the crime being committed, its the way the press, and certain public officials act about it. As the hue and cry goes up to do something about the problem, whether its giggle switches, ghost guns, 3d printers, or the world trade center terrorist attacks, the pattern is consistent.

First they have to tell us the problem exists. Essentially I'm fine with that.
Then, they explain WHAT the problem is. I understand that,
But then, without fail, they go on and tell the entire world HOW TO DO IT!!!
And that is, to me not just wrong, but barking stupid. One could make the argument that they are encouraging the problem by doing that.

Even though they claim its not their intent, it is often the result. One example that really irked me, and likely some others as well because it got pulled after only a few days, was the week after the 9/11 attacks, a major network news was showing people where to put explosives on a bridge to destroy it. And I mean with PICTUREs of the bridge, boxes for the bombs and arrows pointing to them.
Now, their claim was they were showing people where to look for suspicious objects that might be bombs, so they could report them and make us all safer...HOWEVER no matter what their intentions what they also did was TEACH thousands, possibly tens of thousands if not more, people who never before knew, where to plant demo charges on a bridge.

Same applies to full auto weapons conversions, and other things that are already crimes and have been crimes since 1934, by pointing out (repeatedly in national media) specifically HOW TO DO IT, I don't think they are helping the situation. I just can't get past the mental image of some unstable individual who MSN/NBC/ABC/CBS or whomever has just taught them that all they need to do is go to a certain website and order it, or download a program for their 3d printer or where to find instructions on how to make a bomb AND where to put it for maximum effect, now realizing how easy it could be, and deciding to actually do it, because the news told him how.

Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely against restricting the public's access to information. ANY and ALL information. I'm just not in favor of them freely giving out information that can be easily used to cause harm, unasked for, ON THE NEWS!

I know a bit about full auto weapons, and I know some about demolitions, but it is information I had to do research to find, and that I got official, legal training to use. I think some anarchist should have to work at least as hard as I did to learn these things, and not have it given to them by the news media.
of course, that's just my opinion....
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