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Old November 28, 2016, 02:17 PM   #1
hubris
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Mall Shooting

At about 4pm on Black Friday a fight in our largest regional mall spilled out into the parking lot. There, shots were fired and two wounded. Inside, someone ordered employees and shoppers to take cover or evacuate. Within moments the parking lot aisles and perimeter roads were totally gridlocked.

So, what do you do? Leave on foot? Hunker down? Find defensible cover?
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Old November 28, 2016, 03:30 PM   #2
Targa
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Don't put yourself in the situation to begin with. Black Friday mayhem, nightclub shootings....etc...No problem, my family and I are not there. It really is that simple.
If you are caught up in something like that each situation is going to dictate what actions you will need to take. Evacuating should trump everything if that is an option.
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Old November 28, 2016, 04:05 PM   #3
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If one can leave safely they should. If you're talking about after it would probably be best to walk to an area out of range of the threat and let authorities handle the rest.

If inside seek undesirable locations and hunker down if safe to do so.
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Old November 28, 2016, 04:38 PM   #4
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If you're in the mall and the trouble is outside it seems foolish to go anywhere until the police gain control.

Rushing out into the mayhem certainly won't help the situation.
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Old November 28, 2016, 04:39 PM   #5
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Unless you personally witness the entire altercation, there's just no way of knowing what exactly is going on. I wouldn't think of getting involved ( other than calling the police immediately). Best response is to get yourself and others to safety.
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Old November 28, 2016, 04:58 PM   #6
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I would leave unless it was a stampede for the exits, which I would stay out of lest I be pushed over and trampled. In that case I would find a place to take cover or hide.
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Old November 28, 2016, 06:10 PM   #7
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Black Friday is a disgusting overcommercialized brainwashing nightmare.

I wouldn't be there in the first place.
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Old November 28, 2016, 06:48 PM   #8
shafter
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Quote:
At about 4pm on Black Friday a fight in our largest regional mall spilled out into the parking lot. There, shots were fired and two wounded. Inside, someone ordered employees and shoppers to take cover or evacuate. Within moments the parking lot aisles and perimeter roads were totally gridlocked.

So, what do you do? Leave on foot? Hunker down? Find defensible cover?
If you are Black Friday shopping you are an idiot. Don't be an idiot.

If you can get out of Dodge without catching lead do so. If you have to leave your car fine. You can always come back later. If that's not an option take cover and be ready to protect yourself. Don't go hunting.
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Old November 28, 2016, 06:55 PM   #9
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Rules for CCW:

Rule #1. Always carry a gun.
Rule #2. Don't go places where you suspect that you might need to use that gun.
Rule #3. back to rule 1.


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Old November 28, 2016, 07:07 PM   #10
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http://wnct.com/2016/11/26/two-injur...-black-friday/
http://www.wdef.com/2016/11/26/new-i...on-place-mall/

Yeah, it was a "mall" shooting, mall PARKING LOT shooting. Apparently, a couple of gang bangers got into it.

So if there is a shooting OUTSIDE of the mall in the PARKING LOT, don't go outside the mall into the parking lot.
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Old November 28, 2016, 09:11 PM   #11
hubris
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Good advice, but here's the deal....wife and daughter had waited for the crowds to thin out. Had just parked when the exodus began. Once they found out what happened, they were stuck.
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Old November 28, 2016, 10:04 PM   #12
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Mr. Smith nailed it. Wife and daughters carry too.
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Old November 29, 2016, 08:38 AM   #13
Bartholomew Roberts
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If you can safely leave an incident, then definitely leave. The difficulty becomes in assessing whether you can safely leave. There is an excellent documentary on the Kenyan mall shooting called "Terror at the Mall."

One of the issues I noticed watching that is several people hid themselves so deep, it actually hurt their safety. One woman was hiding in close proximity to the shooters but had no idea where they were from her hidey hole. Another couple were at the outskirts of the attack and hid behind a coffee bar. They were wounded in the initial attack by grenade fragments and AK fire. However, the terrorists passed them by to move into the interior of the mall. They didn't know this from where they were huddled behind the coffee bar and they just waited. The wife bled out and died waiting; and except for maybe the first 20-30 minutes of the attack, they could have just walked away.

So I think the first goal is finding a good, defensible position that still allows you good observation. From there you can assess how viable an exit is or whether there are better positions.
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Old November 29, 2016, 04:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Good advice, but here's the deal....wife and daughter had waited for the crowds to thin out. Had just parked when the exodus began. Once they found out what happened, they were stuck.
It is easy to come up with a plan once the news reports are in and the situation is clear. What you are saying, if I may rephrase my understanding of it, is that your family did not have a way of knowing what was going on or which direction to go, only seeing crowds of people in varying degrees of panic. That is likely to be the reality for a lot of people in real time. For exactly that reason, I have always thought that taking cover, assessing, and thinking should be the first steps. Haste and panic can cause a lot of mistakes.
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Old November 29, 2016, 05:42 PM   #15
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Saying "don't put yourself in that situation" is fine and all, but we're talking about an event that has already happened, and while it did occur on Black Friday, it could have been another day in another city. Most folks need to go to the store, gas station, bank or any number of public places sooner or later.

DHS promotes "Run, Hide, Fight" in that order (there is a video demonstrating this) and stresses that you focus on your own safety first and foremost, but also makes the point that first responders will be there to stop the threat, not assist with evacuations. After the Orlando nightclub shooting, there was a lot of debate over the casualties quite possibly caused (but not officially acknowledged) by law enforcement rather than the shooter himself. In a parking lot, or even inside the mall, there are ample opportunities to be struck by gunfire, even if indirect, but sheltering in place is by no means a sure thing. It may come down to a judgement call between the lesser of two evils.
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Old November 29, 2016, 05:44 PM   #16
James K
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"If you are Black Friday shopping you are an idiot. Don't be an idiot."

"Black Friday is a disgusting overcommercialized brainwashing nightmare.
I wouldn't be there in the first place."

Not very good answers. The folks who responded don't seem to realize that unless they dig a hole, get in, and pull it in after them, they go someplace at some time where an attack could take place. Attacks have taken place at church services, sporting events, grocery stores and "peace" demonstrations. It is simply not possible for any reasonable person to avoid all the places an attack might take place. Sorry, but "I will never go anywhere where there might be an attack" is not a realistic answer. (Nor is the "I always ride in a tank and carry 27 guns and six tactical nuke" nonsense.)

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Old November 29, 2016, 06:41 PM   #17
Old Bill Dibble
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I second the "Terror at the Mall" movie. Anyone responsibly carrying should watch that movie.
Quote:
Inside, someone ordered employees and shoppers to take cover or evacuate.
Who? And why were they giving conflicting orders? Sounds to me like someone not to listen to.

Quote:
Within moments the parking lot aisles and perimeter roads were totally gridlocked.

So, what do you do? Leave on foot? Hunker down? Find defensible cover?
MY first notion would be to find the shooter and stop him from shooting.
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Old November 29, 2016, 06:50 PM   #18
Targa
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Quote:
Not very good answers. The folks who responded don't seem to realize that unless they dig a hole, get in, and pull it in after them, they go someplace at some time where an attack could take place. Attacks have taken place at church services, sporting events, grocery stores and "peace" demonstrations. It is simply not possible for any reasonable person to avoid all the places an attack might take place. Sorry, but "I will never go anywhere where there might be an attack" is not a realistic answer. (N

Show me where anyone in this thread suggested burying yourself in a hole. Of course you can't avoid everything or bury yourself in a hole, nobody suggested that but you can mitigate your chance of being involved in an undesirable situation. Not going to the mall on Black Friday is a good start, staying out of nightclubs and bars on New Years Eve, not going to a protest "peaceful" or not, not wearing a Broncos jersey to a Raiders home game....etc..etc. Just seems so easy to me.

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Old November 29, 2016, 06:58 PM   #19
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1) Avoid - situational awareness - don't be there if it looks like trouble
2) Evade - get out of the line(s) of fire or danger areas
3) Support - help others get out of the danger areas, call 911 if you can safely do so
4) Fight - intelligently stop the threat (ie no 'spray and pray')
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Old November 29, 2016, 07:21 PM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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Never go here or there - lots of hindsight bias here.

Folks say they won't go where carry is banned. OK - I can't go to my cardiologist - great plan. However, if I need gas at night - I stop at the big well lighted very corporate station rather than the isolated weird station in Zombie land.

The best answer is to get skills, train and then do what seems sensible at the time according to your priorities and values. This is a heuristic situation and lots of folks want some algorithmic solution. There isn't one.

If you want to hunt the shooters - better have skills up to snuff. Some folks have been interventionist and did silly things and got the short end of the stick. Some of saved the day.

Anecdotally, we had a male/female altercation at WalMart on the way to work. Good Samaritan verbally intervenes and is shot dead.
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Old November 29, 2016, 07:41 PM   #21
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Never go here or there - lots of hindsight bias here.
No there isn't. OP presented a scenario and asked how to handle it. Avoiding a possible situation by not being with the Black Friday masses at the mall is the obvious #1 choice which was presented before the OP elaborated and explained that his family was their. Now if we said they shouldn't have been their in the first place....well, then yeh hindsight comes into play.
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Old November 29, 2016, 08:19 PM   #22
Old Bill Dibble
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If you want to hunt the shooters - better have skills up to snuff. Some folks have been interventionist and did silly things and got the short end of the stick. Some of saved the day.
Well yeah. But it would not be the first time.

Quote:
Anecdotally, we had a male/female altercation at WalMart on the way to work. Good Samaritan verbally intervenes and is shot dead.
Occupational hazard for me. What other people do is what other people do.
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Old November 29, 2016, 09:00 PM   #23
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Don't do things to start altercations. Specifically, don't interfere in any altercation that doesn't involve you. Stay clear of all violence you see. Actively go away.
Each event is different. Just stay aware and protect yourself and your loved ones. Always carry.
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Old November 29, 2016, 10:53 PM   #24
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While many, including me, would rather be publicly caned than fight the Black Friday crowds, many folks consider it a yearly tradition. There are many places people go that involve a higher level of risk; malls, sporting events, the theater, concerts, parades, fourth of July and other holiday celebrations, political events, to name a few. Smugly condemning folks for doing what they like to is something we in the gun community are used to. We should be careful not to do it to others.
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Old November 30, 2016, 08:47 AM   #25
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While the end result is not always ideal, I think the world would be a pretty lousy(er) place if everyone turned their back on altercations, violence, or confrontations. How many innocent lives have been saved by a complete stranger intervening? Quite a few I'd guess. I don't think turning one's back is the answer. Every situation is unique. Generalizations and assumptions should be tossed out the window.
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