The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 28, 2020, 11:45 PM   #1
Wallabing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Posts: 113
Training my friend with a pump shotgun was a failure

For whatever reason, my friend (he's in his 50's) cannot hold or shoulder a shotgun properly, even when I demonstrate it for him, or try to position it for him.

He simply does not have the upper body strength to shoulder a shotgun properly.

But even worse, he does not even have the dexterity/strength in his arm or hand to pump the action back and forth.

He fired one shot of birdshot while sitting on a bench and he called it quits, he says it was way too painful for him.

This is a Remington 870 shotgun he bought himself, so he basically wasted alot of money on it if he even cant use it.

Would you all think a pistol would be better for him? I'm having doubts if he can even work the slide on a semi auto.
Wallabing is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 12:19 AM   #2
big al hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2011
Location: Washington state
Posts: 1,404
Do you have a bolt action rifle chambered in something like, like 22lr or 223? The amount of recoil from a 12 gauge from the bench is indeed less than pleasant. If he can't handle the bolt action, then a revolver in 22 or 38 special.
__________________
You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!
big al hunter is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 12:19 AM   #3
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 7,180
gauge?

I've seen that before, though usually with females. I have also seen elderly subjects who could not manage the slide on an auto pistol. Strength can be an issue, so can stock fit. Bamawife, for example, cannot manage a shotgun, she's quite petite.

One of my instructor details I was fortunate to pull was instructing Bureau of Prisons (BOP) employees. Everybody learns to shoot 3 different weapons in the BOP: carbine, handgun and shotgun) We saw a lot of females who were not corrections officers but administrative. The 12 gauge just beat them up. You don't mention how the Remington is chambered, 12 or 20? A 20 might help w/ recoil a bit. A high dollar recoil pad might help some, as would a butt stock of the correct length. Strength.......pushups!!!!!!

Options:
-A double gun would be lighter and perhaps easier to handle, though less weight would accentuate recoil......but a double 20 coach gun could be an option.

-Forget the shotgun.....sell it and obtain a pistol caliber carbine. The manual of arms for a lever carbine is a bit complicated to the newbie,but another option. A HiPoint auto carbine in 9mm is affordable, and the dang things run too.

My BOP detail showed me that the shotgun is not for everybody. If we could get the trainee to understand sights and trigger with the handgun, they invariably aced the carbine. One advantage is that the auto carbine operates somewhat like a handgun, with a box mag, safety, etc.

But the pump shotgun was just too much for some folks. A kicker, longer and heavy, and a manual of arms all its own.
bamaranger is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 12:31 AM   #4
Wallabing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Posts: 113
I think at this point he cannot shoulder any rifle at all. It is that bad.

I'm thinking that a 22lr revolver would be the next thing to try.

Last edited by Wallabing; June 29, 2020 at 12:38 AM.
Wallabing is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 12:39 AM   #5
Wallabing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaranger View Post
I've seen that before, though usually with females. I have also seen elderly subjects who could not manage the slide on an auto pistol. Strength can be an issue, so can stock fit. Bamawife, for example, cannot manage a shotgun, she's quite petite.

One of my instructor details I was fortunate to pull was instructing Bureau of Prisons (BOP) employees. Everybody learns to shoot 3 different weapons in the BOP: carbine, handgun and shotgun) We saw a lot of females who were not corrections officers but administrative. The 12 gauge just beat them up. You don't mention how the Remington is chambered, 12 or 20? A 20 might help w/ recoil a bit. A high dollar recoil pad might help some, as would a butt stock of the correct length. Strength.......pushups!!!!!!

Options:
-A double gun would be lighter and perhaps easier to handle, though less weight would accentuate recoil......but a double 20 coach gun could be an option.

-Forget the shotgun.....sell it and obtain a pistol caliber carbine. The manual of arms for a lever carbine is a bit complicated to the newbie,but another option. A HiPoint auto carbine in 9mm is affordable, and the dang things run too.

My BOP detail showed me that the shotgun is not for everybody. If we could get the trainee to understand sights and trigger with the handgun, they invariably aced the carbine. One advantage is that the auto carbine operates somewhat like a handgun, with a box mag, safety, etc.

But the pump shotgun was just too much for some folks. A kicker, longer and heavy, and a manual of arms all its own.
It was a 12g.
Wallabing is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 05:26 AM   #6
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 1,418
I would look at a Ruger Mark pistol, whichever Gen you like. They are pretty easy to load and cycle the bolt. Probably the latest version for ease of disassembly and reassembly. The mags can be a bit difficult to load but with the little plastic device to compress the spring it’s easy to load. Plus the newer ones are also available in lighter versions so easy to handle weight wise, and being a .22 recoil is not a problem.
jetinteriorguy is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 08:42 AM   #7
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,376
Try a 12 gauge semi gas gun with 7/8oz loads.

Why was he shooting off a bench?
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 08:46 AM   #8
jmhyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2012
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 815
What is the intended purpose? Self defense? Just some range fun? Hunting? This detail would help us to offer more refined recommendations.

And, as an aside, it sounds like he might have some degenerative neurologic or arthritic condition. A man in his 50s shouldn't normally have the problems you describe.
jmhyer is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 10:02 AM   #9
Aikibiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Posts: 178
How about a Ruger 10/22 youth model. Very light, no recoil, easy to cycle bolt, very inexpensive, and 25 round mags loaded CCI Stingers will work for home defense if that is all you have.
__________________
__________________________

~Joel

TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!
Aikibiker is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 10:50 AM   #10
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,003
My Compliments

Quote:
Would you all think a pistol would be better for him? I'm having doubts if he can even work the slide on a semi auto.
Reading between the lines, I'm thinking tht he is looking for HD firearm. My first though is Heritage or Wrangler SA Pistol. There wouldn't be much of an investment on either and that Heritage is available in .22-WMR. I will pray for your friend as I have one with similar issues. …..

Quote:
How about a Ruger 10/22 youth model.
I'm not aware that Ruger makes a youth model. Perhaps a charger might work??

My compliments in helping your friend and'
Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 11:51 AM   #11
Hammerhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,312
12 gauge from the bench?
No thanks.

How about a 10/22 compact (don't think they make a 'youth' 10/22).
I've seen quite a few ultra light builds on chassis style frames.

Wouldn't recommend a Charger for anyone with weak hands.
Hammerhead is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 12:22 PM   #12
idek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2009
Posts: 873
Like others, I'm going to assume HD is a goal here. This suggestion might get boo'd down, and that's okay, but maybe consider a Hi-Point 995 carbine. Here's why I'm suggesting it:

* It's a pound or so lighter than the 870, and its short overall length (31") should make it feel even lighter since the mass is closer to the body.

* If hand strength is an issue, the pistol grip may be easier to control.

* Recoil with 9mm ammo will be MUCH less than a typical 12 ga or 20 ga shotgun, but is still viable for defense.

* No manual cycling. Charge the handle once, then just pull the trigger.

* Longguns are generally easier to shoot well than handguns, and practicing with a carbine shooting 9mm will be easier on the body than practicing with a 9mm handgun.

* Inexpensive. You mentioned he "wasted alot of money" on the 870. This leads me to believe cost is an issue. The Hi-Point 995 should be less than $300.


I know Hi-Points are ugly and some people take issue with their metallurgy, but most accounts from people who actually shoot the 995s say they are reliable and easy to shoot.


...as for the recommendation for the 10/22, if you go that route, you might consider a T/CR22 (Thompson Center's 10/22 clone) as well. It's about the same weight as the Ruger 10/22 compact--4.25 pounds, but I find the stock ergonomics better on the T/CR22 (I own both stocks).
idek is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 01:40 PM   #13
mdhillbilly1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2017
Posts: 1
I would first find some friends that have various six shooters starting with a .22lr & .38 with the maximum length barrel that he can handle. If you have a few female shooters that will demonstrate the way to shoot the firearm first then help him to fire it. I would try to find someone with a similar hand size with the .38 that might have the ridges between the fingers. If he handles a .38 then try him with a .357 mag. I find the older gentlemen do not like to be shown up be a female to get him to take it serious.

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
mdhillbilly1 is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 02:55 PM   #14
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,003
Charger is a compact 10/22

Quote:
How about a 10/22 compact (don't think they make a 'youth' 10/22).
I've seen quite a few ultra light builds on chassis style frames.

Wouldn't recommend a Charger for anyone with weak hands.
I would not recommend a 10/22 for anyone that can't shoulder it. The Charger is a compact 10/22 and has the same action. You can shoot a charger off a bi-pod or Cross-Arm, …..

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 04:19 PM   #15
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,832
Try before you buy!!

Shooting a 12 gauge off a bench is a traumatic way to start off a new shooter.

It may or may not be true that with determination,low recoil ammo,etc the problem cam be ovrcome. My nephew weighs about 80 lbs and he loves 4-h trap shooting.

But it may well be our subject has no enthusiasm for the 12 gauge at this point.

That would take communication and considerably more trigger time.

I can't tell you what is best..long gun,short gun....any more than I can tell you what dog is best.

Your subject needs to find something that he will shoot enough to become proficient.

I gave my Daughter an M-1 Carbine.

An AR carbine or Mini-14 will pretty much handle any chore a Rem 870 will handle ,except bird hunting.
The 9mm carbines would do.

For weak hand/arm strength S+W has developed the 380 EZ series of handguns.

Your subject might be best served by getting re-introduced to shooting with a .22. Let it be fun. Don't worry about SD, just have fun shooting.

Then try shooting other guns.

He has to want to find the gun that works for him. Let the search be fun and interesting.

Last edited by HiBC; June 29, 2020 at 10:04 PM.
HiBC is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 04:42 PM   #16
Carriertxv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2013
Posts: 230
A Daisy Red Rider but be in order. Just saying. All kidding aside as I get older recoil is getting more unpleasant. I have to put slip on butt pads on to be able to take recoil.
I have to agree with HiBC giving a new shooter a 12 gauge especially on a bench is not good. I’m sure we have done and seen others give a first time shooter a 44 magnum or bigger and all laugh but it’s just not the way to do it.

Last edited by Carriertxv; June 29, 2020 at 04:47 PM.
Carriertxv is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 09:52 PM   #17
Aikibiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Posts: 178
Ruger makes a charger varient that comes with a folding brace. Very compact, but I doubt it is lighter then the 10/22 compact (or youth or whatever it's called) either way the very basics are the same. My wife has hand strength issues and can manipulate the small 10/22 very well.
__________________
__________________________

~Joel

TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!
Aikibiker is offline  
Old June 29, 2020, 10:04 PM   #18
ammo.crafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,690
shotty

When I run Lady's Day at the range, I have them use my wife's Charles Daly 20ga semi-auto.

Kick is minimal and gun weight is very light.

I had the shotgun mag-na-ported as well.
__________________
"The Constitution is not an instrument for government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government, lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
Patrick Henry, American Patriot
ammo.crafter is online now  
Old June 29, 2020, 11:33 PM   #19
hank327
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 105
What’s wrong with your friend? What’s the intended use of the firearm?
hank327 is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 12:27 AM   #20
Mike38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 2,357
If for personal defense in the home, how about one of those Mossberg Home Defense .410 pumps? They are light, and have a pistol grip forearm that should be easy to cycle. See attached image.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OIP (1).jpg (4.0 KB, 22 views)
Mike38 is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 07:27 AM   #21
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 4,624
If it's for self defense I go with the folk that are recommending a double action revolver. Get one big enough to dampen the recoil. Maybe something like a Ruger GP100 in .357 magnum and let him shoot .38 specials in it until he gets used to it, if he doesn't graduate to .357 magnum rounds that wouldn't be the worst thing either.

I wouldn't go with a J-Frame or any of the smaller revolvers and it's just a feeling from your description I wouldn't go with a single action revolver as I don't know that under pressure he'd remember to cock it...much better to have a DA where it's just point and pull the trigger.
DaleA is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 08:16 AM   #22
Wallabing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Posts: 113
The gun was for home defense. He is just physically weak from what I can see. He never told me anything about his disability or condition, I never asked him about it because it might seem rude and disrespectful.

He told me he bought the 870 because it was what the gunstore recommended to him for home defense.
Wallabing is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 09:00 AM   #23
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,723
12 gauge shotguns can hurt if you don't know how to properly absorb the recoil. From a bench, the force is transferred directly into the shoulder. Maybe a pistol grip might help so he doesn't have to shoulder the weapon? Maybe add a light or laser to air with aiming? They make mini shells now that have much milder recoil. The load is much lighter as well of course. https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/prod...h-buckshot-20/

The money has already been spent on the shotgun. Considering that it is probably new, he can probably get most of the value out of it. If he were to trade the gun, try and get a 4 inch revolver in 38 special. Revolvers do not require the hand strength that semi-auto pistols require. Hope this helps.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 10:42 AM   #24
74A95
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
The gun was for home defense. He is just physically weak from what I can see.

He told me he bought the 870 because it was what the gunstore recommended to him for home defense.
Do you have some handguns he can try? Depending on his strength, a 38 revolver or 9mm pistol might be too much for him. Especially a semi-auto 9mm pistol because it requires a fair amount of strength just to rack the slide.

A 22 might be the way to go. Several companies make 22 revolvers. But make sure he has the strength to cock the hammer. He might or might not be able to shoot one double action.

In any case, it would be useful if he could try some of your handguns, if you have any.
74A95 is offline  
Old June 30, 2020, 10:56 AM   #25
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 351
I had a similar experience recently with my grandson.

He is heading to Army basic training, and I had just bought my first AR, so I invited him to get some range time with me. I also brought along a .45 ACP.

I was gobsmacked that he lacked the physical strength to safely load either weapon. He simply could not pull the bolt back on the AR, or rack the pistol.

His first day in Basic is today.
ghbucky is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15476 seconds with 9 queries