I'm curious about mixing Martial Arts with Guns.

[gwpercle]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

This rang a bell, and sure enough:

https://mmawhisperer.com/martial-arts/bartitsu/

Thank You So Very Much for the Link ... It's Freaking Awesome !
At 74 I don't know how much I can do ...but reading and studying this will give me some great idea's about what can be done .

This site and it's members are the best ... Thanks to you all for guidance given .
Gary

[vtech26]

Gun Kata - Equilibrium

[ghbucky]

Glad I could be of help, Gary.

[44 AMP]

Originally Posted by ghbucky View Post
Might be a good time to review the four rules of gun safety, with a focus this one:

"Every gun is always loaded"

personal gripe: its not "THE four rules of gun safety" its The FIRST four rules, there are many others. "the four rules", and "every gun is always loaded" are SHORTHAND, they are incomplete and attenuated phrases intended to merely be easy reminders of the FULL RULES and their meanings.

But every gun isn’t always loaded.

Case in point. Obviously every gun isn't always loaded, but that's not the rule.

As AB pointed out, the rule is "Treat every gun as if it were loaded", and using a (literally inaccurate) "short form" of the rule for convenience ignores the reasoning and the logic behind the stated part of the rule.

Here's the thing, I'm not an amateur when it comes to guns or gun safety, I've been practicing with them for nearly 15 years now.

I've been doing it for over 50 years, and I'm an amateur. So are you, unless you're getting paid to do it, and are doing it for your primary livelyhood (your profession).

Amateur does not mean unskilled, and professional does not guarantee expertise, though we do expect it. All professional means is you get paid for doing it. We expect competence and even expertise when we are paying for it, but our expectations and reality are often not fully congruent.

[Electrod47]

Check out Tom Laughlin "Billy Jack" in a 70's flick "The Master Gun Fighter" He mixed Samurai Swords and six shooters in a western. Critic's panned it. I loved it.

[Rojack79]

True but my main point is, if it's somehow not an issue to dry fire and practice with our firearms at home, which as far as I know everyone here does, then why is it all of a sudden an issue when I simply want to introduce another avenue to learn how to incorporate my marksmanship into hand to hand combat? That's the thing I had an issue with the most in that little exchange. It's not like I don't know and don't follow the rules of gun safety, I do it whenever I dry fire and in fact whenever I handle my guns period. So I'm just a little confused as to what the big deal was for him to point those rules out explicitly when I do know and follow them already.

[shafter]

Some drills can be performed with an unloaded firearm. These drills will adhere to the same safety rules as any other time. Basically, the firearm isn't pointed at anyone and ammunition is removed from the training area.

If it's necessary to point a firearm at someone during training then it's not appropriate to use a real firearm. Use SIM or Airsoft with the strict safety protocols that they require or use an inert training pistol like a blue gun or SIRT pistol.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by shafter

Some drills can be performed with an unloaded firearm. These drills will adhere to the same safety rules as any other time. Basically, the firearm isn't pointed at anyone and ammunition is removed from the training area.

If it's necessary to point a firearm at someone during training then it's not appropriate to use a real firearm. Use SIM or Airsoft with the strict safety protocols that they require or use an inert training pistol like a blue gun or SIRT pistol.

Well that's just it, in again not talking about pointing my firearm at anyone else. That's the one rule I strive to never break even with an unleaded firearm. Although I do have a fake BN pistol id have to see if it could even be used in the holster I plan on getting.

[tangolima]

Gun and martial arts don't mix. Whenever the martial art master is on scene to do his thing, all guns disappear even for the most bollocky reasons. I have seen that time again on movies.

No martial art guy would like to, or is able to, face a firearm. There were a few who dared, they didn't get to find out themselves, the spectators did.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[HiBC]

To the OP, I know, WE are invincible. Its the other moron who screws up.

But doggone, there is history behind "I didn't know the gun was loaded" or "Its the unloaded gun that kills people"

Check out the Alec Baldwin movie "Rust" situation. The fact that I think Baldwin is a JERK aside,, imagine it was YOU,or Myself, who held the gun as Halyna was dying.
Try to feel that in your guts.

If you can absorb and accept a "Code" that will spare you that burden,....do yourself a favor.

One of the Olde School Gun Gurus had a tragic event. Bill Jordan.
Go here and read post # 34 . It was written by the Daughter of the Man who died as a result of Bill Jordan's mistake.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho....php?p=2384639

FWIW, no disrespect to Bill Jordan. The point is,there but for the Grace of God (and regarding all guns as loaded),go You and I .

You ever heard of Massad Ayoob? Highly regarded and respected . I still learn something every time I watch one of his vids. He had an unintended discharge once giving a class. As I understand it, he opened the cylinder on a revolver ,clearing the gun. I'm filling in the blanks here. I don't know what happened. If we clear thousands of guns,it can be a habit,done by wrote. We can clear a gun in our sleep. It can be a motion we go through.
As I understand it, Mr Ayoob did go through the motions of clearing the gun.

Somehow there was still a round in the cylinder. Fortunately,Mr Ayoob WAS obeying the rule about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.The gun went "bang" No one was injured.

I do NOT bring up Bill Jordan and Massad Ayoob to embarrass or disgrace them. I have my stories,too. But I'd be just another moron.
The best of the best can have an "Aw,Do-Do" moment. There is no "I'm too cool to screw up"

Its the overlapping contingencies that save lives when You and I have a Human Fallibility incident.

Just get a blue gun,or an airsoft,or a non-firing replica and rock out. No regrets.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by HiBC

To the OP, I know, WE are invincible. Its the other moron who screws up.

But doggone, there is history behind "I didn't know the gun was loaded" or "Its the unloaded gun that kills people"

Check out the Alec Baldwin movie "Rust" situation. The fact that I think Baldwin is a JERK aside,, imagine it was YOU,or Myself, who held the gun as Halyna was dying.
Try to feel that in your guts.

If you can absorb and accept a "Code" that will spare you that burden,....do yourself a favor.

One of the Olde School Gun Gurus had a tragic event. Bill Jordan.
Go here and read post # 34 . It was written by the Daughter of the Man who died as a result of Bill Jordan's mistake.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho....php?p=2384639

FWIW, no disrespect to Bill Jordan. The point is,there but for the Grace of God (and regarding all guns as loaded),go You and I .

You ever heard of Massad Ayoob? Highly regarded and respected . I still learn something every time I watch one of his vids. He had an unintended discharge once giving a class. As I understand it, he opened the cylinder on a revolver ,clearing the gun. I'm filling in the blanks here. I don't know what happened. If we clear thousands of guns,it can be a habit,done by wrote. We can clear a gun in our sleep. It can be a motion we go through.
As I understand it, Mr Ayoob did go through the motions of clearing the gun.

Somehow there was still a round in the cylinder. Fortunately,Mr Ayoob WAS obeying the rule about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.The gun went "bang" No one was injured.

I do NOT bring up Bill Jordan and Massad Ayoob to embarrass or disgrace them. I have my stories,too. But I'd be just another moron.
The best of the best can have an "Aw,Do-Do" moment. There is no "I'm too cool to screw up"

Its the overlapping contingencies that save lives when You and I have a Human Fallibility incident.

Just get a blue gun,or an airsoft,or a non-firing replica and rock out. No regrets.

Honestly I have heard all about the rust incident, and it's tragic, I feel for the family of the Halyna and her family. And again I'm not trying to say I'm infallible or not capable of making a mistake, I've made plenty of them, I am simply saying that I do not understand what the big deal is with safely practicing with my gun, in my home, with no one else around. That's it. That's all I'm not understanding. Of we all do this with dry firing and there's no accidents, than what's the difference between me doing this at home in safety, just being me practicing with my gun and seeing how it goes with incorporating martial arts into the mix? I'm not saying I want to go out and practice this in a gym, or in a sparring match with a partner, I want to do this at home and practice in the exact same manner as we all do when it comes to dry firing.

Again I'm not saying I'm perfect and can't make a mistake, but if it's so dangerous to practice at home then should none of us ever try to practice dry firing?

[JohnKSa]

...if it's so dangerous to practice at home then should none of us ever try to practice dry firing?

Dryfiring is a very common factor in unintentional discharges.

Here's how to dry-fire safely.

https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...y-fire-safety/

If you can follow all the recommendations in that article and still do what you plan to do, then you should be ok.

If you can't follow all the recommendations in the article while doing what you plan to do, then you should put additional safety measures in place.

[HiBC]

You get it or you don't. Its a waste of my time to argue farther.

It peaves me when people come and ask for feedback when what they really want is blessing something I will not bless

And then they want to argue.

OK,I'll point out a critical flaw in your thinking. When dry firing, do you use your dog or your neighbor's window for a direction to point your muzzle? No?
So you use a redundant layer of safety by pointing in a safe direction? The basement wall,maybe? A lot like pointing down range during live fire?

Now,as you play Bruce Lee or Jean Claude, where is your muzzle pointed? Where is your focused awareness?

The difference is, when I dry fire, I CAN assume the gun is loaded,because if it was,if it went "BANG" the gun would be pointed in a safe direction ,I know where my bullet would stop,and no one would get hurt.

When you put on the music and do your "Kata dances with guns" can you say the gun is always pointed in a safe direction?

NOW! Why do you (Like Baldwin) reject the idea of an alternative to a real gun?

Don't bother to answer,because it BS, I'm done wasting my time.

[shafter]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dry fire at home. The best trainers in the business all recommend it. The protocols are simple: don't point the gun at anyone, check and double check to be sure it's unloaded, even if you put it down for a minute check again. Dry fire all you want.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Rojack79

I am simply saying that I do not understand what the big deal is with safely practicing with my gun, in my home, with no one else around. That's it. That's all I'm not understanding.

Someone is around. You. Injuring yourself would likely impact others, people that care about you. In addition to that, if there are people within gunshot of your home then mistaken dry fire could see someone else injured.

I have had a negligent discharge while dry firing. Can dry fire be done safely and do I still do it? Yes. Can it also have serious repercussions? Yes.

I think the device mentioned in the article John linked makes sense. I would add that for what you are doing you don’t need a functioning firearm. When I dry fire I do so in part because I am able to feel the trigger on my firearm as I would during live fire; that feedback is important. From what you’ve described I don’t see that as necessary. A blue gun or airsoft pistol would likely be fine. The latter has some advantages in terms of allowing an actual trigger pull and perhaps seeing where a round might impact (airsoft can cause injuries to eyes and other areas so exercise some caution). I make it a habit not to handle firearms unnecessarily, and since I don’t see it as necessary here I wouldn’t do it.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Dryfiring is a very common factor in unintentional discharges.

Here's how to dry-fire safely.

https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...y-fire-safety/

If you can follow all the recommendations in that article and still do what you plan to do, then you should be ok.

If you can't follow all the recommendations in the article while doing what you plan to do, then you should put additional safety measures in place.

Alright, thank you. I will be looking at this in the morning when I'm fully awake and able to read it properly.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by HiBC

You get it or you don't. Its a waste of my time to argue farther.

It peaves me when people come and ask for feedback when what they really want is blessing something I will not bless

And then they want to argue.

OK,I'll point out a critical flaw in your thinking. When dry firing, do you use your dog or your neighbor's window for a direction to point your muzzle? No?
So you use a redundant layer of safety by pointing in a safe direction? The basement wall,maybe? A lot like pointing down range during live fire?

Now,as you play Bruce Lee or Jean Claude, where is your muzzle pointed? Where is your focused awareness?

The difference is, when I dry fire, I CAN assume the gun is loaded,because if it was,if it went "BANG" the gun would be pointed in a safe direction ,I know where my bullet would stop,and no one would get hurt.

When you put on the music and do your "Kata dances with guns" can you say the gun is always pointed in a safe direction?

NOW! Why do you (Like Baldwin) reject the idea of an alternative to a real gun?

Don't bother to answer,because it BS, I'm done wasting my time.

Ok I can understand, you get it or you don't, if you're a normal person who doesn't have a learning disability. I do, and while I can understand some things people here have said, I can't understand absolutely everything, without a little bit more explanation other than,

You're going to blow your toes off.

It's not helpful to say that when I already know the dangers of owning a firearm, I'm not Baldwin, I actually do care what my gun is aiming at and I'm not dumb enough to try and say my finger wasn't on the trigger when it clearly was the only way for a gun to go off.

Now I don't REJECT the idea of getting a fake gun, heck I even mentioned I have a BB gun I'd be willing to use. My issue is I literally can't go out and buy a fake plastic gun at the moment, that's it. Money, that's all I need to go buy a plastic gun. I'm stubborn but not stupid.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Someone is around. You. Injuring yourself would likely impact others, people that care about you. In addition to that, if there are people within gunshot of your home then mistaken dry fire could see someone else injured.

I have had a negligent discharge while dry firing. Can dry fire be done safely and do I still do it? Yes. Can it also have serious repercussions? Yes.

I think the device mentioned in the article John linked makes sense. I would add that for what you are doing you don’t need a functioning firearm. When I dry fire I do so in part because I am able to feel the trigger on my firearm as I would during live fire; that feedback is important. From what you’ve described I don’t see that as necessary. A blue gun or airsoft pistol would likely be fine. The latter has some advantages in terms of allowing an actual trigger pull and perhaps seeing where a round might impact (airsoft can cause injuries to eyes and other areas so exercise some caution). I make it a habit not to handle firearms unnecessarily, and since I don’t see it as necessary here I wouldn’t do it.

Thank you. I'm definitely going to give the video a look and go through it a few times to make sure I understand everything and can do all of what it suggests to make sure I'm as safe as possible. Haven't watched it yet but it's too early for me to be awake so I need to head back to bed.

And I can definitely agree, if it's not necessary then don't do something. For me I feel like it would be necessary to understand a few things,

1. How does it feel to do my normal martial arts with the extra weight of the gun on my leg, because these things do weigh quite a bit and they can, maybe not to a big extent, but that extra weight can throw some people off id think, so I'd like to train to get used to that.

2. In a high stress situation I'm going to fall back on my training, and that for me is my martial arts to create space so I can pull my gun but that isn't always going to be viable. No fight, especially a street fight is entirely predictable, so I like to train for different situations like what if I need to get my gun out while pinned to the ground or other situations.

3. I always here train like you fight and I just don't see the point in not training up my skills to be able to handle any situation I could feesibly come across and I see martial arts and guns being a useful skill, I just don't have access to people teaching Krav Maga or Systems, both martial arts that incorporate pistols and other firearms into their routines.

[TunnelRat]

For 1 and 2 those can be done with a blue gun or airsoft pistol. Blue guns do have weight, they’re solid plastic, and it will give you some idea of what an awkward lump on your hip will feel like. They also are made accurately so that they will fit and work in holsters, so you can absolutely do the training you’re describing.

For 3, yes train like you fight, but there’s a limit. We make exceptions when safety is concerned. I have taken a lot of training courses when it comes to firearms. I have never had anyone shoot at me with live ammunition in those courses. Why not, that’s how I would fight? Because sometimes you reach a point where what might be gained from the additional change isn’t worth the associated risk.

Now what I used is an extreme example, but there are lots of other examples. I once watched an instructor almost have a negligent discharge because he was trying to holster his pistol without taking his eyes off the threat. This was back when looking at the holster while holstering was considered bad. It was raining so we were wearing coats and he got his coat stuck in his holster as he was seating the pistol. He spent seconds basically fishing around his holster rather than look, and came close to a ND. Nowadays looking a pistol into a holster isn’t perceived nearly as negatively, no doubt in part because people in training were injuring themselves.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

For 1 and 2 those can be done with a blue gun or airsoft pistol. Blue guns do have weight, they’re solid plastic, and it will give you some idea of what an awkward lump on your hip will feel like. They also are made accurately so that they will fit and work in holsters, so you can absolutely do the training you’re describing.

For 3, yes train like you fight, but there’s a limit. We make exceptions when safety is concerned. I have taken a lot of training courses when it comes to firearms. I have never had anyone shoot at me with live ammunition in those courses. Why not, that’s how I would fight? Because sometimes you reach a point where what might be gained from the additional change isn’t worth the associated risk.

Now what I used is an extreme example, but there are lots of other examples. I once watched an instructor almost have a negligent discharge because he was trying to holster his pistol without taking his eyes off the threat. This was back when looking at the holster while holstering was considered bad. It was raining so we were wearing coats and he got his coat stuck in his holster as he was seating the pistol. He spent seconds basically fishing around his holster rather than look, and came close to a ND. Nowadays looking a pistol into a holster isn’t perceived nearly as negatively, no doubt in part because people in training were injuring themselves.

I was wondering why he had ammunition in his gun but then I thought about it, I'm guessing you guys were at a range? And yikes, people injuring themselves just because they don't look is honestly scary.

And yes I'd say 3 is an extreme example but that's the main reason I'm super cautious and stingy about making sure my gun is always unloaded. I was the same way with my revolvers and I'm doubly so with my auto loaders. Heck I even find myself triple checking them, I'll even take out the magazine and not even put it in the gun, even if there's no ammunition in it.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Dryfiring is a very common factor in unintentional discharges.

Here's how to dry-fire safely.

https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...y-fire-safety/

If you can follow all the recommendations in that article and still do what you plan to do, then you should be ok.

If you can't follow all the recommendations in the article while doing what you plan to do, then you should put additional safety measures in place.

Ok I looked at this, it's not a video like I first thought but boy is it full of great advice. And a Barrel blocker is an amazingly ingenious idea. I'm going to see if I can find one ASAP because that is just what I need to help make sure I never have a ND. Thank you immensely for this information, I now always have the link on my phone's home screen and I plan on consulting it whenever I plan on doing anything with my firearm so I can train up even more of these good habits.

[Skans]

The short answer is "yes". The gun is just another extension of fighting. I have trained martial arts and spent some time incorporating a firearm. A lot of it comes down to knowing when to deploy your weapon, and what measures you need to take before you've created enough distance between you and the attacker to come out of concealment and shoot.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by Skans

The short answer is "yes". The gun is just another extension of fighting. I have trained martial arts and spent some time incorporating a firearm. A lot of it comes down to knowing when to deploy your weapon, and what measures you need to take before you've created enough distance between you and the attacker to come out of concealment and shoot.

Ahh now see that's is interesting and that's actually pretty much what I was thinking of practicing actually, how to make space between you and your attacker so you have time to pull your gun. Granted I don't want to do this with a sparring partner, safety reasons trump my personal training honestly. But now I'm curious what you're long explanation would be.