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January 4, 2018, 12:47 AM | #51 |
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The people can never match the government's military forces in levels of training and weaponry, but where they do match the government is in their sheer numbers, which the government cannot match. The people being armed serves as a counterweight to the government's otherwise having a monopoly on force. It changes the calculus of the situation.
Those who sneer at the idea of resistance to tyranny in modern times generally haven't thought it through much IMO. |
January 4, 2018, 01:21 AM | #52 | |
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That means that at any given time, nearly half our population of 5-6 million knows one end of a rifle from the other, even if we've no means of using it outside of when the military decides we should. (How well each person is trained, though, is another matter.) We're also a key US ally and the most technologically advanced, well funded military in our part of the world. In other words, conscripts like myself vary in ability, but there's a solid core of career soldiers, airmen and sailors as well. Now obviously, in a war the numbers aren't on our side -- our neighbours can muster forces that vastly outnumber ours, should they go nuts and decide to try. What our military does is make the cost of an invasion so high that it will not be worth mounting in the first place. The word we use is deterrence; we aim to prevent an armed conflict, though if that fails we can push back pretty hard. In a sense, that's what I feel the 2A does on one hand -- any government that tries anything close to genocide, or even using the military to enforce its demands, is going to find it (excuse the understatement) extremely difficult. The cost of doing so makes such tyrannical action not worth pursuing in the first place. It's not going to be worth the effort needed, and as has already been said, large portions of the American military already support the right to keep and bear arms. To add some more relevance -- it's both the skill level of individuals and groups that matters in this case, AND the fact everyone will have self-interest at heart, even potential tyrants who know an armed population is a deterrent force in itself. The 2A decentralises US arms so that the result makes tyranny and the bloodshed we see around the world much more unlikely. There's another discussion on public safety, but that's for another forum. Keep your freedoms well, those of you who still have it. Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Last edited by Aspirant; January 4, 2018 at 01:31 AM. |
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January 4, 2018, 06:30 AM | #53 | |
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January 4, 2018, 10:46 AM | #54 | |
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It is clear from history that this is not always the case. The ability to utterly pulverize the enemy with technically superior firepower and equipment didn't win it for the Soviets in Finland in 1940 and in Afghanistan in the 1980s, nor for the Nazis fighting Yugoslav and French partisans in WWII, nor for France and the USA in Vietnam. Each of those conflicts has a common element: ever-present and indefatigable armed paramilitaries operating in the shadows behind the front lines, supported by the populace.
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January 4, 2018, 11:10 AM | #55 | |
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I believe you've stated the role of the 2d Am. well. If things go so poorly that people are shooting at soldiers inside the country, the damage is already done. The other way your sentiment has been stated is that we shouldn't trust a government that wouldn't trust us with arms. It isn't that anyone is looking forward to an insurrection, but the state shouldn't be pushing a population so hard that they are worrying about an insurrection. At a practical level, Pakistan achieves something similar with its ungoverned tribal areas. If Islamabad were to move against the tribes to disarm and govern them, they would get a war in return, so they don't.
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January 4, 2018, 11:24 AM | #56 | |
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Zuke noted:
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I don't see insurrection in the US, yes we have some 'spirited diatribes' and some nut cases, but I also believe most politicians believe that stepping way out of line trying to restrict rights could be hazardous.
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January 4, 2018, 11:32 AM | #57 |
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Just to cut to the chase:
Would some folks like to state clearly that, for them, defense against tyranny is not a purpose of the 2nd Amendment? Don't babble about fighting M-1 tanks or B-2s and/or why you would be useless personally. If you think the 2nd is just for you to shoot a B-27s at 3 yards at the range or Bambi, say so. Support or don't support the theoretical view.
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January 4, 2018, 12:01 PM | #58 | |
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Just trying to clarify.
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January 4, 2018, 12:19 PM | #59 | |
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Remember that famous picture of the guy facing down the tank in that square in China? That fellow, while brave, didn't stop that tank. The tank driver did. The tanks, bombers, and everything else that we "can't possibly win against" are crewed by men (and some women). The support for those tanks and bombers are done by men and women. They are our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers. Some will blindly obey tyrannical orders, but some will NOT. This isn't the same thing as operating in some 3rd world pesthole where the entire populace doesn't speak our language, doesn't share our common values, and pretty much hates us. Even the Waffen SS (who took an oath of personal loyalty to Adolf Hitler) was not monolithically obedient to all Hitler's orders. Our sons and daughters in the military are a long way from that, and I believe many of them would work to thwart the orders of a tyrant, once the situation becomes clear to them. There are a million and one things they could do to hamper or even foil operations while appearing to comply and follow orders. The Bomber that doesn't take off because of a mechanical fault, the tank which stops because some private in the motor pool didn't tighten certain bolts, these don't blow up/run over Grandma's house. They are as effectively removed from the dictator's hands as they would be if they were destroyed on the field of battle. (just a couple of examples) If it comes to a fight, tis not going to be unthinking, uncaring robots with perfectly working equipment gunning down a bunch of rednecks lined up with their "squirrel guns". It will be MUCH, much more complicated and complex than that. And. remember, our side does not have to defeat theirs, IN BATTLE, in order to win. Anyone who thinks that individual arms will have no utility in that kind of fight is simply, delusional.
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January 4, 2018, 12:19 PM | #60 |
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OK, good question.
I was just posing that folks may have many reasons for supporting the 2nd Amend. After all, some folks want to eliminate it. Of all the possible reasons, I wanted know if someone thinks that defense against tyranny is not a reason for us to have the 2nd. I really don't like the term 'insurrectionist theory'. It is too neutral as to reason for the insurrection. Maybe you want to lead a rebellion to make the turkey the national bird? To be silly. So I prefer defense against tyranny. I know that some assume IT is based on preventing tyranny but I don't like it.
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January 4, 2018, 12:42 PM | #61 | |
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We wouldn't say that freedom of speech is only for non-silly speech because we suppose a real right involves the speaker's discretion on that. I'd compare a right to take up arms against the state to another right, the right to vote. I don't have to actually vote in order for my prospective vote to be a threat to a candidate. Just the prospect that I might vote a fellow out of office might make him more gentle where my interests are involved. If he and others like him do their jobs really well, voter turnout might plummet just because people aren't motivated by dissatisfaction. Of course, the implicit threat that I will vote if he gives me reason to vote doesn't work if I don't have a right to vote. I can think of one episode in our history in which taking up arms (along with subsequent voting) against the government ultimately changed policy for the better - prohibition. It was a poor idea that made ordinary people into criminals, criminals wealthy, and endangered state agents. Even "revenuers" may not have been assured of their safety. That scenario isn't very "Red Dawn", but it does illustrate some things the state can't do well where a population refuses to comply and has the means not to comply. IT sounds crazy and anarchic in the abstract, but if it is understood as an implicit threat to use one's rights, like the right to vote, it's part of a larger and seamless fabric of rights that keep the state from being our master rather than our servant.
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January 4, 2018, 12:43 PM | #62 | |
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Back to Iran.
This is a quote from the NY Times (a notoriously anti 2nd Amend. paper). I wonder if the writer understands the implications. You have a population that seems to want some semblance of freedom but: Quote:
Of course, overturning tyranny is complex and risky but ...
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January 4, 2018, 12:46 PM | #63 |
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Defence takes many forms. Deterrence (prevention) is as much defence as reaction (cure), and much more preferable.
So to get to the point, yes, the 2A is a defence against tyranny because it makes the cost of implementing it too high to be worthwhile. That's the way I've come to see it. Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk |
January 4, 2018, 12:48 PM | #64 |
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the best I can say for you is that I believe that the second amendment has become somewhat irrelevant for defense against a dictatorship. The first amendment and the other rights that give us the means of voting are the most important tools we have to combat abusive governments. that, however, depends on an educated and non-moronic electorate. it can easily be seen that our people are less capable of self government and/or choosing political representatives than would be hoped.
the following picture is posted only to illustrate how seriously we take our electoral responsibilities. Fort Worth Star-Telegram
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January 4, 2018, 12:51 PM | #65 |
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glen, maybe khomeini and his eventual takeover are a fair parallel to what the future holds. a change by political action seems unlikely.
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January 4, 2018, 12:59 PM | #66 | |
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January 4, 2018, 01:05 PM | #67 |
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If you actually follow the more technical debate, the antigun folk understand the defense against tyranny / insurrectionist theory and specifically discount it.
In the popular press, the argument seems to be about saving lives but some folks think deeper than that. So Brian, you weren't clear - Do you think that defense against tyranny is not a valid reason for the 2nd Amend.?
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January 4, 2018, 01:13 PM | #68 | |
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People who entertain a sneering dismissal of limited government (often because they wold like to redirect government power to support their own goals) generally don't generally seem impressed by the limitation set forth in the 2d Am. Of course, people aren't always ideologically consistent, but the whole "No one needs X" argument makes some assumptions about one's legitimate needs.
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January 4, 2018, 01:32 PM | #69 | |||
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January 4, 2018, 02:41 PM | #70 |
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Glenn, that isn't my specific meaning. ThAt is the keystone. We were granted these rights by God, by being born, by living, thAt is the specific reason behind'rights'. Natural rights that men are born to possess.
Tyranny does not mean our government alone, that Bill was specifically written in time of ongoing conflict with a despot. Irregular troops were used and Joe the farmer had to defend himself against the same enemy with weapons. Tyranny has never been our problem regarding our govt, in a way that the second was relevant, UNLESS you count the armed insurrection by the south. Does tyranny include repression and or attack by non-govt agents? of course it does. It's not often approached in this manner, but don't we have a right, given by God, to put an end to illegal oppression by means of arms? Of course, isn't that what all of the defensive weaponry involves? I believe that weapons are no longer a tool to end oppression. The second now belongs to other causes, but it is valid for everything that could be oppression, up to and including shooting at those tinfoil tanks.
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January 4, 2018, 03:03 PM | #71 |
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I’ll cut to your chase:
The founders didn’t include the 2nd for the purpose of furs and meat. They did include it for the purpose of violently removing tyrants in a very graphic manner.
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January 4, 2018, 03:04 PM | #72 | |
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Zuni, you appear to have that reversed. Our bill of rights denies power to the government. 9 and 10 state that rights and power belong to the people EXCEPT when constitutional restrictions are applied. Unless the federal government has created restrictions, the state has the right to create restrictions. Absent any specific restrictions, all men are free to do as they choose.
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January 4, 2018, 03:30 PM | #73 | |
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January 4, 2018, 03:37 PM | #74 | ||
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Whiskey, as I said before, they wrote a single line intending to settle it at such a fundamental level that it couldn't be abridged. Adding specific items would have complicated the issue. It would have left holes in the coverage. What we have done to enhance the second is to make doing bad stuff with guns illegal. Although the bill was written partly with insurgency in mind, with those very same mouths the created treason laws.
Regarding the infringement of speech, I can't think of anything that has been so completely abused. I can't go there. Sufficient to say that the only accepted limitations seem to be for the other guy. The constitution and our laws mean nothing to most people. For example, a California goofball declared that they should have ten times as many senators, because they have more people. A person who was weeping bitterly about gun laws used the following excerpt in his article.. Quote:
Our world is absolutely owned by idiots. In fact, speaking statistically, 60% of Americans are of only average to sub-average intelligence, and one in five qualify as STUPID. Those stupid people still have a constitutional right to go hunting for Bigfoot with a rifle and blog about it. Again, not trying to politicize this unduly, consider this. Quote:
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January 4, 2018, 03:46 PM | #75 | |
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