is 223 enough for east coast whitetails? - Page 2

Ewok_Guy · February 17, 2002, 07:22 PM

Quote:

...nothing hurts me more than to walk up to a deer who suddenly tries to scramble to his feet only to have to shoot him again

But thats the only part of the hunt when you get to pull out your Ruger Redhawk...

Jamie Young · February 17, 2002, 10:34 PM

Thats a topic I almost brought up a few days ago "UnClean Kills". I've seen it with Small game and heard plenty of Deer Hunting Stories. Clean Kills are always better

LONGRIFLE30 · February 18, 2002, 02:50 AM

If you are culling deer, and there might be folks living close, then use a .30-30,or try a 12 gauge slug. If people aren't a concern, then use whatever you please. It is real simple. If you have to cull deer and worry about people, use 12 GA. 00 buck.

warpig883 · February 18, 2002, 08:53 PM

For years I hunted with a 22-250 on deer. i have never lost one and almost always dropped them within a few feet of where they were hit. I have plenty of friends who use the .223 it is marginal but if you put the bullet in the heart/lung area it will kill them.

The farthest I ever had to track a deer was after I shot one with a 30-06.

Just remember that people drop deer in their tracks all the time with a bow and arrow. A .223 is fine if used responsibly and with in its limits, just like a bow and arrow.

riddleofsteel · February 18, 2002, 09:32 PM

OH the great debate.
It never ceases to amaze me how folks will advocate the .223 as the ultimate battle cartridge for 150 + lb. humans dress in battle gear but will not accept thte same performance on a 75 to 100 lb. deer running naked.
Varmit size cartridges with well designed fast bullets will kill deer like hot lighting with a well placed shoot. With a poorly placed shoot there is no future in anything more powerful or larger caliber.
I, myself, mainly use the 6.5 X 55 or the 25-06 for deer but I have cleanly killed deer with rounds as anemic as the .22 LR (behind the ear) and as powerful as a .60 muzzle loader at 15 yards (chest shot). Both deer dropped on the spot.
This brings to mind the writings of a Christain missionary to the Cree Indians of northern Canada. The folks hunted caribou twice a year when the great herds passed thru their territory. You can be sure a cartridge or a weapon that did not perform would not last long. We are talking survival food here. Their favorite weapon for these 400 to 500 lb animals was the Ruger Mini-14 in .223.

Perhaps the question here is not;

"Is the .223 good enough for eastern deer?"

But;

"Why would I intentionally use a .223 for eastern deer when there are so many better cartridges?"

LONGRIFLE30 · February 23, 2002, 01:00 AM

Well, riddleofsteel, I prefer the .308 for either deer or human. Although I have known a half-dozen guys who use .223 Mini-14's on whitetail all the time....never more than one shot (they know their business) and I don't argue. I have seen the deer bodys, they damn-near fell dead. I have to admit that though I am from the school that bigger is better. On hogs on up, bigger is better, on deer and such, a better shot is better, no matter the caliber. don't mean to agree or argue....Just what I have seen....

Art Eatman · February 23, 2002, 07:50 AM

Been using an '06 since before there was a .308. I started out with it because my father gave me an '06. How easy can it get? "That's what my daddy uses," said the sixteen-year-old.

As I learned more about the whole deal, I came to the conclusion that "overkill" is sort of like insurance. I'm not always going to make that perfect hit that makes a deer DRT. A cartridge which is more than some minimum capability can still anchor an animal, even if it's a bad hit.

Further, a clean kill is important to me because of what I have come to see as a requirement for ethical behavior on my part. That is of no concern if the problem is dealing with a Bad Guy.

Dunno. It all seems simple, now. Of course, it only took a few decades for me to become the all-wise, all-knowing sage that I am.

Art

slick slidestop · February 23, 2002, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Riddleofsteel:

"OH the great debate.
It never ceases to amaze me how folks will advocate the .223 as the ultimate battle cartridge for 150 + lb. humans dress in battle gear but will not accept thte same performance on a 75 to 100 lb. deer running naked."

Well, probably most people are not worried about a "clean kill" while in Battle as I would not either.

That is a totally different scenario.

When in peacetime and hunting a defenseless animal, I want that animal to die as quickly and painlessly as possible.

If I am in a war fighting for my life, I could care less If I had to gut shoot someone..... at least in the heat of Battle.. I'm sure afterward I would not be overjoyed of someone elses suffering

MLC · February 24, 2002, 02:20 AM

Quietest, cheapest ammo, most lightweight rifle fastest follow up shot if we have more than one deer to eliminate. I simply asked a question from a nonhunters position. I've decided on my grandfathers enfield, for the record.
Riddle of Steel do you usually hunt from your high horse as well?

The Terminator · February 24, 2002, 02:40 AM

HKLVR,
I think that you have made an excellent decision. I recommend Federal 180 grain Tropy Bonded Bear Claw ammunition. It generates 2680 lbs of energy at the muzzle, and when sighted in at 200 yards is only 2.4 inches high at 100 yards and 4.0 inches low at 250 yards with 1610 lbs of energy retained. An impressive cartridge for up to 250 yards. Good luck.

Byron Adams · February 24, 2002, 09:26 AM

A young man at my Church(18) did not like the recoil of his 270. He traded for a NE rifle in 223 and loaded the Hornady 60 grain SP. He shot and killed two deer in the N GA mountains and both went but a few yards. Range was about 65 yards.

February 17, 2002, 10:34 PM	#27
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Thats a topic I almost brought up a few days ago "UnClean Kills". I've seen it with Small game and heard plenty of Deer Hunting Stories. Clean Kills are always better __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

February 18, 2002, 02:50 AM	#28
LONGRIFLE30 Member Join Date: February 16, 2002 Location: Wichita Falls,TX. Posts: 49	If you are culling deer, and there might be folks living close, then use a .30-30,or try a 12 gauge slug. If people aren't a concern, then use whatever you please. It is real simple. If you have to cull deer and worry about people, use 12 GA. 00 buck. Last edited by Art Eatman; February 18, 2002 at 10:01 AM.

February 18, 2002, 09:32 PM	#30
riddleofsteel Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2000 Location: above ground Posts: 1,558	OH the great debate. It never ceases to amaze me how folks will advocate the .223 as the ultimate battle cartridge for 150 + lb. humans dress in battle gear but will not accept thte same performance on a 75 to 100 lb. deer running naked. Varmit size cartridges with well designed fast bullets will kill deer like hot lighting with a well placed shoot. With a poorly placed shoot there is no future in anything more powerful or larger caliber. I, myself, mainly use the 6.5 X 55 or the 25-06 for deer but I have cleanly killed deer with rounds as anemic as the .22 LR (behind the ear) and as powerful as a .60 muzzle loader at 15 yards (chest shot). Both deer dropped on the spot. This brings to mind the writings of a Christain missionary to the Cree Indians of northern Canada. The folks hunted caribou twice a year when the great herds passed thru their territory. You can be sure a cartridge or a weapon that did not perform would not last long. We are talking survival food here. Their favorite weapon for these 400 to 500 lb animals was the Ruger Mini-14 in .223. Perhaps the question here is not; "Is the .223 good enough for eastern deer?" But; "Why would I intentionally use a .223 for eastern deer when there are so many better cartridges?" __________________ For him there was always the discipline of steel.

February 24, 2002, 02:20 AM	#34
MLC Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2001 Location: New Hope, PA Posts: 230	"Why would I intentionally use a .223 for eastern deer when there are so many better Quietest, cheapest ammo, most lightweight rifle fastest follow up shot if we have more than one deer to eliminate. I simply asked a question from a nonhunters position. I've decided on my grandfathers enfield, for the record. Riddle of Steel do you usually hunt from your high horse as well?

February 24, 2002, 02:40 AM	#35
The Terminator Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2002 Location: Georgia, 35 miles Northwest of the armpit Posts: 946	HKLVR, I think that you have made an excellent decision. I recommend Federal 180 grain Tropy Bonded Bear Claw ammunition. It generates 2680 lbs of energy at the muzzle, and when sighted in at 200 yards is only 2.4 inches high at 100 yards and 4.0 inches low at 250 yards with 1610 lbs of energy retained. An impressive cartridge for up to 250 yards. Good luck. __________________ The Terminator John 3:16 (I hope to see You over there.)

February 18, 2002, 08:53 PM	#29
warpig883 Junior Member Join Date: February 18, 2002 Location: SD Posts: 6	For years I hunted with a 22-250 on deer. i have never lost one and almost always dropped them within a few feet of where they were hit. I have plenty of friends who use the .223 it is marginal but if you put the bullet in the heart/lung area it will kill them. The farthest I ever had to track a deer was after I shot one with a 30-06. Just remember that people drop deer in their tracks all the time with a bow and arrow. A .223 is fine if used responsibly and with in its limits, just like a bow and arrow.

February 23, 2002, 01:00 AM	#31
LONGRIFLE30 Member Join Date: February 16, 2002 Location: Wichita Falls,TX. Posts: 49	Well, riddleofsteel, I prefer the .308 for either deer or human. Although I have known a half-dozen guys who use .223 Mini-14's on whitetail all the time....never more than one shot (they know their business) and I don't argue. I have seen the deer bodys, they damn-near fell dead. I have to admit that though I am from the school that bigger is better. On hogs on up, bigger is better, on deer and such, a better shot is better, no matter the caliber. don't mean to agree or argue....Just what I have seen....

February 23, 2002, 07:50 AM	#32
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Been using an '06 since before there was a .308. I started out with it because my father gave me an '06. How easy can it get? "That's what my daddy uses," said the sixteen-year-old. As I learned more about the whole deal, I came to the conclusion that "overkill" is sort of like insurance. I'm not always going to make that perfect hit that makes a deer DRT. A cartridge which is more than some minimum capability can still anchor an animal, even if it's a bad hit. Further, a clean kill is important to me because of what I have come to see as a requirement for ethical behavior on my part. That is of no concern if the problem is dealing with a Bad Guy. Dunno. It all seems simple, now. Of course, it only took a few decades for me to become the all-wise, all-knowing sage that I am. Art

February 23, 2002, 05:48 PM	#33
slick slidestop Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 394	Originally Posted by Riddleofsteel: "OH the great debate. It never ceases to amaze me how folks will advocate the .223 as the ultimate battle cartridge for 150 + lb. humans dress in battle gear but will not accept thte same performance on a 75 to 100 lb. deer running naked." Well, probably most people are not worried about a "clean kill" while in Battle as I would not either. That is a totally different scenario. When in peacetime and hunting a defenseless animal, I want that animal to die as quickly and painlessly as possible. If I am in a war fighting for my life, I could care less If I had to gut shoot someone..... at least in the heat of Battle.. I'm sure afterward I would not be overjoyed of someone elses suffering

February 24, 2002, 09:26 AM	#36
Byron Adams Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2001 Location: Ellijay, GA Posts: 176	223 A young man at my Church(18) did not like the recoil of his 270. He traded for a NE rifle in 223 and loaded the Hornady 60 grain SP. He shot and killed two deer in the N GA mountains and both went but a few yards. Range was about 65 yards.