Starting to Realize the Merits of SBRs

[rickyrick]

Edit to add disclaimer: I did not post in the NFA forum because the featured firearm is not an NFA item. The muzzle device is pinned and welded.


I had a couple of AR pistol’s for a few years, basically for the novelty of them. They were fun to shoot and I actually never shouldered them. Never really had interest in SBRs though.

During the recent attempts to ban pistol braces I abandoned the pistols and used the receivers and other parts to make carbines. I also built lowers for other orphaned AR uppers that I have.

During the process, I found that I had nearly enough parts in my parts boxes to make another gun minus the stripped lower and barrel. I even had two complete 6.8 bolts and carriers from a failed 6.8 project that I had abandoned.

On a whim, I purchased a 10.5” 6.8 spc ARP barrel, posted about it before. I promptly pinned and welded a 6” flash hider to make it legal. I really wanted to give 6.8spc a try again (already had ammo) and I kinda missed AR pistols.

In the months since I’ve put this together I’ve grown to like this gun, very light weight and even more fun with a shoulder stock, lol.

I’ve made a few changes to the gun. Its original lower got moved to the 450 project for testing and instead of swapping lowers back, I went ahead and swapped the rifle stock out for a carbine stock buffer and all. I thought about a more expensive carbine stock but I’ve always found the M4 style to be acceptable and the price is unbeatable really. I also opted to install a skeletonized pistol grip for a few grams of weight savings.

Anyway I’m really starting to like this particular gun, my only regret is that I should have opted for a hand-guard with a rail before I pinned and welded the muzzle device. The tube was what was in the parts box at the time. I like tubes, but they do limit accessories.

While this isn’t an actual SBR, but it has SBR qualities, the flash hider is lightweight and is more like a flash can.

I’m not ready to get a tax stamp yet, the needle has moved a bit more in that direction. I understand why people like the more now.



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[veprdude]

An interesting point for braced pistols- Texas law prohibits concealed carry of a rifle. You can open-carry a rifle. You can concealed carry a pistol.

A braced pistol is legal to carry, since it's a pistol. If you SBR it you can't carry it in a case wherever you want.

Other states may have this distinction.

[stagpanther]

I thought about this option; I decided this was an intermediate solution--like bump stocks and binary triggers--that eventually would be subject to negative interpretation if the barrel as manufactured was not "compliant." Looks fun though.

[jetinteriorguy]

I’ve often felt that with the stock collapsed all the way and no muzzle device even a 16” barrel would feel short enough to be quite handy. Maybe I’ll give it a try one of these days.

[rickyrick]

I’ll say that the 10.5” barrel with a 6” flash hider is noticeably lighter and more balanced than a full 16” barrel with everything else being the same

[Shadow9mm]

Yes a short barrel makes it light and fast. But the main point is short/manuverable for getting in and out of vehicles, inside buildings, or so that you can add a suppressor without getting crazy long. The weight reduction is just a side effect.

[tangolima]

A welded on muzzle device to make 16" is not a real SBR. Light weight is the only advantage, at the expense of other performance parameters.

-TL

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[Skans]

I am 100% in on Bullpups as opposed to SBR's. Basically, similar OAL, but longer barrel. So, you get the compactness with more power and no government bullcrap.



Caliber: 7.62 X51 / .308 WIN
3.5lb to 5.0lb adjustable trigger pull with patented trigger linkage.
Barrel Length: 16"
Barrel Twist: 1:10, 4 Groove Nitride treated
Overall Length: 26.25" with 16" barrel
Weight: 8.2 LB 16" barrel
Short Stroke Piston System W/ adjustable gas system
Will shoot suppressed and non suppressed
Strong 3 Lug style bolt that is NP3 plated

[rickyrick]

A welded on muzzle device to make 16" is not a real SBR. Light weight is the only advantage, at the expense of other performance parameters.

Very true, but it’s still very light and balanced. My needs have changed to short range maneuvering in a dense forest. I’m just leaning towards a real SBR, but I’m just miles from a state line, so I’m hesitant to acquire stamps and NFA items.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Skans

I am 100% in on Bullpups as opposed to SBR's. Basically, similar OAL, but longer barrel. So, you get the compactness with more power and no government bullcrap.







Caliber: 7.62 X51 / .308 WIN

3.5lb to 5.0lb adjustable trigger pull with patented trigger linkage.

Barrel Length: 16"

Barrel Twist: 1:10, 4 Groove Nitride treated

Overall Length: 26.25" with 16" barrel

Weight: 8.2 LB 16" barrel

Short Stroke Piston System W/ adjustable gas system

Will shoot suppressed and non suppressed

Strong 3 Lug style bolt that is NP3 plated

Interesting. The make and model? Thanks.

-TL

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[bamaranger]

I like the appearance of your carbine, the tube forearm and the old school 1" scope and the long flash hider all look right together and the simple scope/rings will cut weight as you have discovered.
I understand you used the parts on hand, but offer the following suggestion if you want to lighten it up further. Consider the simple "L" shaped Minimalist stock from Battlelink. One can normally overcome the short length of pull by running the scope well forward.
Another simplified option, though likely not as light as the Minimalist, is the MagPul fixed carbine stock. I used the Magpul fixed on one of my carbines, ran the scope well forward, and nixed the flash hider with a thread protector which yielded a shorter, rattle free carbine.

[FrankenMauser]

I love my SBRs. I have seen thousands of arguments against them, and the paperwork (and "permission slips") that comes with them. I understand the arguments and agree with many.

But once you're in the game, life is more fun.

I was hesitant, myself.
But I ended up with a 14.5" barreled AR upper for a wildcat that has only been chambered once, on which I had a matching brake pinned and welded. (Only 12 barrels were made and they were all 14.5", so getting a longer barrel was not an option.)
That arrangement was acceptable for a few years, until I had some suppressors. I really wanted to suppress the rifle with that p/w'd brake.

So I had to file the F1 and SBR it.
No regrets. Absolutely worth it.
Now I can run whatever I want on the SBR'd lower, from the 7.5" 5.56 barrel, to the 24" .17-223 barrel. Doesn't matter, they're all legal now.

[SR420]

I am kicking around the idea of having the barrel on my K1A1 cut down to 10.5", that happens to be what the gas system is set up for.

On the other hand, I may replace the original wire butt stock with a M.A.R.S.(Mission Adapted Railed Stock) Kit. It was developed by request from top tier South Korea Army SF units, it improves the rifles balance and accuracy.

[davidsog]

Interesting. The make and model? Thanks.

https://www.kmarms.com/M17S308.html

Here is my bullpup. I hate bullpups but this one has wormed it's way into my heart. It is very ergonomic and reliable. This one is small enough you can use it to shoot out of the drivers side window when sitting in the drivers seat. I changed the optic from an MRO to an EOtech 552.

[rickyrick]

Bullpups are interesting, but I have this unfounded, irrational fear of having a receiver under my face.
Maybe one day I’ll get over it.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Skans

I am 100% in on Bullpups as opposed to SBR's. Basically, similar OAL, but longer barrel. So, you get the compactness with more power and no government bullcrap.

True… but people tend to either like them or hate them.

I got into bullpups after Trump got elected. Local dealer stocked up, and wanted to at least stimulate some of the upcoming dead market. Got a 16” Tavor SAR. Nice gun, did the Geissele upgrades and changed out the charging handle.

It shot good. I was about to suppress it… but decided to trade it and stick with ARs. AR pistols, and ultimately SBRs.

Why did I ditch the Tavor, especially when the OAL was identical to these shorter barrel guns? Because it wasn’t an AR. At work, we use M4s. We train and qualify on them. For me, sticking on a familiar platform, especially when I’m trusting/relying on it, is a better option than something that might have a long barrel… even if same OAL.

My truck gun is a 11.5” AR with a suppressor. I really don’t realistically need to fire out past 150-200 yards (whether working or off duty, just the range isn’t as common in my area). That barrel length is more than adequate for my needs. If there was a need for 16”+ barrel, I’d might consider bullpups more… but even still, a Colt 6920 is still manageable for me.

[stagpanther]

With that muzzle device pinned and welded--is your gas block pretty much committed until death does it part?

[rickyrick]

With that muzzle device pinned and welded--is your gas block pretty much committed until death does it part?

Yes and everything that depends on removal of the muzzle device to change out.
So I’m stuck with the hand guard too. I didn’t think I’d like the gun as much as I do, so I threw the tube that I had in the parts box on it anticipating it getting pushed to the back corner of the gun cabinet. Now I kinda wish I’d put something on it with a rail, but it’s not the end of the world.
It has a Superlative Arms bleed-off style gas block. It is running fine in the “normal” adjustment setting.
The little gun has a surprisingly authoritative recoil impulse, I may adjust the gas to see if I could tone it down a bit, but I wouldn’t think that it has a lot of gas to work with. Then again, I may leave it be, it cycles rounds and locks the bolt back on empty.

Consider the simple "L" shaped Minimalist stock from Battlelink.

I’ve been thinking about that too. I have a few different types of carbine stocks kicking around, the standard M4!style was the lightest that I had on hand at the time. I may end up with an L stock.

[stagpanther]

I bought several minimalist stocks once when I thought they would be the bee's knees--I ended up not liking them. To each their own I guess.

[Skans]

Make and Model is a K&M Arms M17S in .308. They also make a version in 5.56. I happen to have this gun and love it.

Billet aluminum Lower 6000 series; Tough extruded aluminum upper

Adjustable hammer assy with pull range from 3.5-5lb without removing the assembly. There is also a heavier spring that can be installed in the disconnector area that will allow it to go up to 5.5lb.

Utilizes standard AR-10 magazine catch, grip, springs and pins.

Skeleton billet trigger, adjustable

Magpul enhanced butt pad

Push button safety located right at your finger tip
2X QD sling adapters at the butt of the rifle

2X AR style takedown pins. (Uses standard AR takedown springs and detent)

AR180 style bolt carrier with an over-engineered 3 lug triangular bolt that uses DPMS extractor and ejector parts. Guide rods and bolt are NP3 plated.

Uses LR/SR series magazines. (Comes with one magpul 20 rd mag)

Uses standard AR pistol grip that can be changed to use most all other AR grip.

Non reciprocating charging handle changeable to both sides of the receiver .

Standard AR10 Flash hider threaded 5/8-24

Ambi mag release that is a standard AR style

Modular side rails that can be mounted in any of the side slots

AR10 style bolt catch with last round hold open

Tactical flared magwell for quick magazine loading

[rickyrick]

I bought several minimalist stocks once when I thought they would be the bee's knees--I ended up not liking them. To each their own I guess.

I’ve thought that might happen too.
Every time I think of other stocks, I can’t help but to weigh the fact that a $30 M4 style stock does the job just fine.

[SR420]

Bull pup rifles have an undeniable cool factor, but I won't own one.

My experience with an M14/M1A bull pup conversion kit.

[9x19]

Bull pups are a viable alternative if you don't have a lot of time behind a conventional AR, and/or dedicated yourself to only that design.

For me the magazine change on a bull-pup is a fumblers nightmare compared to the regular gun, so I spent the coin to register four SBRs a good while back.

[jetinteriorguy]

Around 30 years ago I did a bull pup conversation to my mini14 and definitely didn’t care for it. It just didn’t feel balanced right to me, not sure if this is a thing in general but would guess even the ones designed for this configuration would be rear heavy too.

[berettaprofessor]

Bullpups are interesting, but I have this unfounded, irrational fear of having a receiver under my face.
Maybe one day I’ll get over it.

Thankfully, as a lefty, bullpups are out of the question for me....not only is the receiver under my face but the cartridge cases keeps hitting my cheeks..and the gases blow into my ears!