Urban Defense: SG or Rifle/Carbine?

VictorLouis · February 22, 2000, 12:57 AM

I won't pose the question with a scenario. Let's just say that you feel compelled to leave your dwelling to defend a cop, neighbor, or loved one. You feel a long arm is the right tool. In an urban situation, which one would you reach for first, assuming both are at hand?

Dorcas · February 22, 2000, 02:08 AM

Even though I love my shotgun, I'm going to have to go with a rifle. Even in the thickest urban environment there are going to be shots out of range for a shotgun.

The only possible exception I can think of is if I was doing primarily building clearing. At across the room distances a shotgun can't be beat.

bkm...

------------------
Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

Dave McC · February 22, 2000, 04:42 AM

First, off, it HAS to be a long arm. Contrary to what Hollywierd portrays, a sidearm is an emergency weapon, used because one doesn't have a better one at hand.

As highly as I regard my 870s, there's times where they're not the best choice. Anytime the range extends past 25 yards, anytime precision is called for,anytime a lot of pellets is not a good idea, it's time to reach for a rifle.My choice there is a Model 94 Winchester in 30-30 caliber.

However, this scenario is going to be quite rare,relatively speaking.

Solitar · February 22, 2000, 05:18 AM

Scenario: urban defense, likely outside.
At 10 to 20 yards - 000 buck or slugs.
At longer range as in many urban warzones
AR15 or AK47 (those I'm familiar with).
or
similar assault rifle
FAL?
HK-91's or G3?

Though the "assault rifle" will draw a lot of fire from the cops, DA's, and liberal media.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 22, 2000, 10:39 AM

Dorcas - at room distances, the pattern spread of most shotgun loads is not that great. Are you implying the pattern fills the room or what?

Stopping power is good. Some folks load slugs in the home shotgun. So what's your thought on this?

jnix · February 22, 2000, 02:09 PM

It depends on the situation, if I was in my house and needed to go popin fellons I would definately use my shotgun with buckshot simply because the shotgun is far more devistating than a rifle at close ranges. If my truck was getting broken into it would be a tossup between my shotgun and my Mini-14 (I just picked up some exploding tip .223 from http://realammo.com

I don't know how well they work though?)

------------------
"Guns don't kill people the government does", Rusty Shackleford.

Erik · February 22, 2000, 02:24 PM

Mini 14 or AR would do nicely. Many other "assault weapons" would too. (That would be some press coverage I would like to see

) Shotguns are good, too. But be careful about the range involved and/or the possibility of overpenetration.

Erik

Correia · February 22, 2000, 07:48 PM

I would have to go with my Bushmaster Dissipator. I can hit moving targets out to 200 yards consistently, and its no slouch at close range either. It will punch body armor also. That is in a go outside looking for trouble scenario. At home I would probably stick with a shotgun.

Dorcas · February 23, 2000, 12:48 AM

Glen,

I was referring to the stopping power of a shotgun at close range, not with the spread at across the room distances. I just think 437gr. of lead beats 55gr. any day of the week.

As far as slugs as the primary load in a HD shotgun, I have mixed feelings. Obviously slugs have the stopping power of a shotgun without sacrificing range like shot. However slugs have a few drawbacks the main one being overpenetration. My HD shotgun has 3 round of buck followed by 2 slugs.

Finally as I stated above, I think a rifle is superior in most non home defense cases. At 200 yards the holdover for a slug is measured in feet. In the house I want a shotgun, but if I'm venturing outside I want a rifle.

bkm...

------------------
Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

Dorcas · February 23, 2000, 12:52 AM

BTW, I wish this topic was in the General forum. I find this topic fascinating and it would get alot more exposure there (hint hint moderator).

bkm...

------------------
Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

Glenn E. Meyer · February 23, 2000, 11:07 AM

I usually have two rounds of Federal Tactical 00, maybe three and then the rest with tactical slugs.

Hopefully, I never have to test the utility of this pattern.

The shotgun is the safe room artillery though.

muleshoe · February 23, 2000, 11:39 AM

jnix:
"Popin felons" inside your house is one thing. Some guy breaking into your truck hardly constitutes any immediate danger to you or your family. So I don't think shooting said guy would be legal or ethical. This is the kind of stuff antis love. A shotgun blast in the air in town probably isn't legal either, but would get better results than shooting the guy.

As to the original question:

More details would need to be known in order to make a proper choice of weapons. A shotgun is a mighty scary thing to be looking down the wrong end of, even at 50 yards or so. Of course if I'm trying to save a cop at 200 yards I'd rather have my .270.

------------------
bullet placement is gun control

jnix · February 23, 2000, 02:10 PM

I'm sorry did I say popin fellons I meant butt stroke.

------------------
"Guns don't kill people the government does", Rusty Shackleford.

Dr.Rob · February 23, 2000, 02:20 PM

yeah running outside to "save a neighbor" might land you in the pokey...

But I still beleive that most people KNOW what a shotgun is.. as compared to some of the rifles I own. Personally.. I'm not sure I could IDENTIFY a problem that was occuring outside "shotgun" range.

Use your brains first, then your guns.

Dr.Rob

muleshoe · February 23, 2000, 02:34 PM

Good point Dr.Rob, the situation must be an obvious G/G-B/G confrontation or you'd best stay out of it. Might get yourself shot in the process.

jnix:
"popin felons" inside your own house is a good thing.

------------------
bullet placement is gun control

Michael · February 23, 2000, 02:49 PM

My situation is this; I live in a rural area, six miles from town, remote part of the county. I HAVE had to place a 911 call "shots fired, send everyone!" in the past. Response was timed at 42 minutes. Everyone in the county showed up, but it was still 42 minutes. I don't choose between firearms......my drill is this; the door is ALWAYS answered after dark with my handgun.
People in the yard elicit a response with my shotgun. From the yard to my front gate is 300 yards line of sight....outside the immediate surroundings of the dwelling the rifle comes out. All three weapon types work in conjunction; I've never carried ANY other weapon without also being in controlled possession of my handgun.

------------------
Either learn to hit what you aim at, or take track lessons.

jnix · February 23, 2000, 04:41 PM

Seriously folks I was just kidding, I wouldn't shoot unless my life or the life of anyone else was in danger.

Your brain is the most dangerous weapon in the world.

Use your head.

(I just love saying "popin criminals" kind of catchy

)

[This message has been edited by jnix (edited February 23, 2000).]

Ned Roundtree · February 23, 2000, 10:10 PM

Can I take two guns? CAR-15 in .223 in hand with Remington 870 slung over my shoulder as back up? Hate to lose a gun fight for lack of armament.

February 22, 2000, 12:57 AM	#1
VictorLouis Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,302	I won't pose the question with a scenario. Let's just say that you feel compelled to leave your dwelling to defend a cop, neighbor, or loved one. You feel a long arm is the right tool. In an urban situation, which one would you reach for first, assuming both are at hand?

February 22, 2000, 02:08 AM	#2
Dorcas Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 1999 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 194	Even though I love my shotgun, I'm going to have to go with a rifle. Even in the thickest urban environment there are going to be shots out of range for a shotgun. The only possible exception I can think of is if I was doing primarily building clearing. At across the room distances a shotgun can't be beat. bkm... ------------------ Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

February 22, 2000, 04:42 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	First, off, it HAS to be a long arm. Contrary to what Hollywierd portrays, a sidearm is an emergency weapon, used because one doesn't have a better one at hand. As highly as I regard my 870s, there's times where they're not the best choice. Anytime the range extends past 25 yards, anytime precision is called for,anytime a lot of pellets is not a good idea, it's time to reach for a rifle.My choice there is a Model 94 Winchester in 30-30 caliber. However, this scenario is going to be quite rare,relatively speaking.

February 22, 2000, 05:18 AM	#4
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	Scenario: urban defense, likely outside. At 10 to 20 yards - 000 buck or slugs. At longer range as in many urban warzones AR15 or AK47 (those I'm familiar with). or similar assault rifle FAL? HK-91's or G3? Though the "assault rifle" will draw a lot of fire from the cops, DA's, and liberal media.

February 22, 2000, 10:39 AM	#5
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Dorcas - at room distances, the pattern spread of most shotgun loads is not that great. Are you implying the pattern fills the room or what? Stopping power is good. Some folks load slugs in the home shotgun. So what's your thought on this?

February 22, 2000, 02:09 PM	#6
jnix Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Tacoma, Wa Posts: 130	It depends on the situation, if I was in my house and needed to go popin fellons I would definately use my shotgun with buckshot simply because the shotgun is far more devistating than a rifle at close ranges. If my truck was getting broken into it would be a tossup between my shotgun and my Mini-14 (I just picked up some exploding tip .223 from http://realammo.com I don't know how well they work though?) ------------------ "Guns don't kill people the government does", Rusty Shackleford.

February 22, 2000, 02:24 PM	#7
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	Mini 14 or AR would do nicely. Many other "assault weapons" would too. (That would be some press coverage I would like to see ) Shotguns are good, too. But be careful about the range involved and/or the possibility of overpenetration. Erik

February 22, 2000, 07:48 PM	#8
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	I would have to go with my Bushmaster Dissipator. I can hit moving targets out to 200 yards consistently, and its no slouch at close range either. It will punch body armor also. That is in a go outside looking for trouble scenario. At home I would probably stick with a shotgun.

February 23, 2000, 12:48 AM	#9
Dorcas Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 1999 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 194	Glen, I was referring to the stopping power of a shotgun at close range, not with the spread at across the room distances. I just think 437gr. of lead beats 55gr. any day of the week. As far as slugs as the primary load in a HD shotgun, I have mixed feelings. Obviously slugs have the stopping power of a shotgun without sacrificing range like shot. However slugs have a few drawbacks the main one being overpenetration. My HD shotgun has 3 round of buck followed by 2 slugs. Finally as I stated above, I think a rifle is superior in most non home defense cases. At 200 yards the holdover for a slug is measured in feet. In the house I want a shotgun, but if I'm venturing outside I want a rifle. bkm... ------------------ Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

February 23, 2000, 12:52 AM	#10
Dorcas Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 1999 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 194	BTW, I wish this topic was in the General forum. I find this topic fascinating and it would get alot more exposure there (hint hint moderator). bkm... ------------------ Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

February 23, 2000, 11:07 AM	#11
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I usually have two rounds of Federal Tactical 00, maybe three and then the rest with tactical slugs. Hopefully, I never have to test the utility of this pattern. The shotgun is the safe room artillery though.

February 23, 2000, 11:39 AM	#12
muleshoe Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: Mills County, IA Posts: 410	jnix: "Popin felons" inside your house is one thing. Some guy breaking into your truck hardly constitutes any immediate danger to you or your family. So I don't think shooting said guy would be legal or ethical. This is the kind of stuff antis love. A shotgun blast in the air in town probably isn't legal either, but would get better results than shooting the guy. As to the original question: More details would need to be known in order to make a proper choice of weapons. A shotgun is a mighty scary thing to be looking down the wrong end of, even at 50 yards or so. Of course if I'm trying to save a cop at 200 yards I'd rather have my .270. ------------------ bullet placement is gun control

February 23, 2000, 02:10 PM	#13
jnix Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Tacoma, Wa Posts: 130	I'm sorry did I say popin fellons I meant butt stroke. ------------------ "Guns don't kill people the government does", Rusty Shackleford.

February 23, 2000, 02:20 PM	#14
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	yeah running outside to "save a neighbor" might land you in the pokey... But I still beleive that most people KNOW what a shotgun is.. as compared to some of the rifles I own. Personally.. I'm not sure I could IDENTIFY a problem that was occuring outside "shotgun" range. Use your brains first, then your guns. Dr.Rob

February 23, 2000, 02:34 PM	#15
muleshoe Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: Mills County, IA Posts: 410	Good point Dr.Rob, the situation must be an obvious G/G-B/G confrontation or you'd best stay out of it. Might get yourself shot in the process. jnix: "popin felons" inside your own house is a good thing. ------------------ bullet placement is gun control

February 23, 2000, 02:49 PM	#16
Michael Junior member Join Date: July 20, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 264	My situation is this; I live in a rural area, six miles from town, remote part of the county. I HAVE had to place a 911 call "shots fired, send everyone!" in the past. Response was timed at 42 minutes. Everyone in the county showed up, but it was still 42 minutes. I don't choose between firearms......my drill is this; the door is ALWAYS answered after dark with my handgun. People in the yard elicit a response with my shotgun. From the yard to my front gate is 300 yards line of sight....outside the immediate surroundings of the dwelling the rifle comes out. All three weapon types work in conjunction; I've never carried ANY other weapon without also being in controlled possession of my handgun. ------------------ Either learn to hit what you aim at, or take track lessons.

February 23, 2000, 04:41 PM	#17
jnix Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Tacoma, Wa Posts: 130	Seriously folks I was just kidding, I wouldn't shoot unless my life or the life of anyone else was in danger. Your brain is the most dangerous weapon in the world. Use your head. (I just love saying "popin criminals" kind of catchy ) [This message has been edited by jnix (edited February 23, 2000).]

February 23, 2000, 10:10 PM	#18
Ned Roundtree Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 1999 Location: Lexington, KY,USA Posts: 738	Can I take two guns? CAR-15 in .223 in hand with Remington 870 slung over my shoulder as back up? Hate to lose a gun fight for lack of armament.