Manufacturing your own press

[F. Guffey]

Could that case be aligned in that die any more precisely than you just did with your fingers ? That case holder has slop for a reason, it is to allow the case to align to the die

I am the only reloader that has noticed the RCBS Rock Chucker ram kicks forward at the top and back at the bottom when the ram is raised because the toggle hits the linkage. When it comes to alignment the Rock Chucker would not align if it was not for the case; the case aligns the ram with the die. We could go all the way back to me claiming my favorite shell holder is the RCBS shell holder because it fits like a hand-me-down shirt; it only fits where it touches.

As sure as there is an advantage to loose shell holders there are advantages to shell holders that fit. My shell holders that fit were designed for cam over presses, that is one advantage and then there are other advantages.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

I am the only reloader that has noticed the RCBS Rock Chucker ram kicks forward at the top and back at the bottom

you must have the only Rock Chucker in the world that has enough slop in his press to allow lateral movement of the ram movement then. My ram is a slide fit and the only movement on my ram is vertically not laterally. All the lateral movement occurs with the movement of the rim and base of the case within the case holder while the case is aligning itself to the die. The die also has no lateral movement either, just a by the way.

Any forward or backward kick or cam over you think you see or feel is the in the linkage

[F. Guffey]

I have three Rock Chuckers, I have had a total of 5. One I modified one Rock Chucker with clearance between the toggle and linkage, it was one smooth running press.

And then there was the day at Cabalas when a reloader made a video of the Rock Chucker being put thorough its paces. The video was shot from the top of the press without a die installed. On the Internet it almost turned into a mob scene; it was the Chinese this and Chinese that and RCBS selling American jobs. It was an ugly scene.

I was the only reloader that stated I have 4 Rock Chuckers that were made in the USA that have linkages that get tangled up and go into a bind when the ram is raised without a case in the shell holder to keep it aligned.

I will tell you it is not easy to get a reloader away from the key board when it comes to checking the bottom of a press. I can only guess they are afraid they will smash their little fingers.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

And if there was a need to correct the problem I would knurl the bore and then ream it to fit.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

I seriously doubt anyone will ever wear the bore enough to where it would be problematic and as I have demonstrated it would not matter a whit if you have 1/10 an inch of slop as long as the ram does it's thing and pushes the case into the die when you operate it

[JeepHammer]

There is going to be two, maybe three guys understand this...

The longer the ram support block the better it will guide the ram.
Common bearings will allow ram to misalign, bushings often wear fairly quickly.
It takes a press pin bearing that preloads to keep slop out of the ram, and they aren't cheap, and it takes experence to install one correctly.

Build the frame before your drill for alignment!
Doesn't matter how much bolting, riveting, welding or whatever, once the frame is solid, then bore ram & die holes in a straight line, directly through.
Warpage doesn't matter when the bores aren't there to misalign yet...
If you want a truly aligned set, then they have to be bored on a lathe, honed/lapped to finish size.

No, you don't spin the frame, you mount your frame on lathe cradle and use a boring bar between centers. This allows you to support the boring bar.

*IF* you had a long enough reamer, you could skip the lathe/flying boring bar, but that would take one LONG reamer!

To keep brass from moving around, and to keep the head flush/square with the ram, use a collet to clamp the brass in place.
Collets nearly perfectly center the brass with the die, hold the brass head in place so it doesn't get cocked off center and bend the brass/head.
There is also no issues with pulling the rim off the brass since a collet is virtually 100% contact with the available rim material.

I'm sure there are other ways to make an 'O' frame press yourself, this is what I came up with for nearly perfect alignment, the collet kept the slop out you get with a common shell holder...

[hounddawg]

Collets nearly perfectly center the brass with the die, hold the brass head in place so it doesn't get cocked off center and bend the brass/head.

You are missing a important point JH

If you were to lock the case in place with no wiggle movement the case would have to be perfectly aligned with the die to enter. With a locked in place case a offset of .001 would damage the case. Now take that case and put it in a case holder that allows 1/10 th of a inch of movement laterally and you can use a hammer to force it into a sizing die and it will be ok. Of course getting it out again could be a problem.

Once the mouth of the case enters the die the movement of the case in the case holder is what the brass uses to center itself to the die. The ram simply supplies the force to get the case in and out

[jmorris]

If you want a truly aligned set, then they have to be bored on a lathe, honed/lapped to finish size.

No, you don't spin the frame, you mount your frame on lathe cradle and use a boring bar between centers. This allows you to support the boring bar.

*IF* you had a long enough reamer, you could skip the lathe/flying boring bar, but that would take one LONG reamer!

It’s called a king pin reamer.

{Edit: Removed copyrighted material. See board policy on how to post copyrighted material}

They have been around longer than we have. They are used to ream two separated and undersize holes so they don’t have any slop and a ground king pin can be installed. Cars and trucks have been using these since they were invented.

You are already located on the other end before you cut the bore on the near side and are still located on the near side when you finish the far side.

[F. Guffey]

*IF* you had a long enough reamer, you could skip the lathe/flying boring bar, but that would take one LONG reamer!

If the king pin has been allowed to get into the steering knuckle a bushing with a larger diameter is required. The reamer pictured was used to ream the bushings to fit the king pin.

And to remove the king pin from the end of the axle heat was required and or a press. Some pounded on the end of the king pin and then there were those that were persistent; they pounded on both ends of the king pin thinking they started to remove it from the wrong end..

That is the reason I would knurl and then ream, I have always favored knurling because of the threaded rings, the rings are a good place for grease to hide.

F. Guffey

[jmorris]

I have rebuilt around a bazillion Formula Vee’s and have always used new bronze bushings and then reamed to fit the king pin.

Knurling was always looked at as “shade tree” because instead of getting a precision fit, you are taking a sloppy fit and roughing up the ID of a hole to reduce the gap between the OD of another part.

Valve to valve guide clearance was/is also done this way. One of those things one might do low buck or maybe to sell and pass the problem on to another.

If a knurled surface was ideal they would start with is vs resort to it.

[hdwhit]

JeepHammer wrote:
I have a customer sitting on a $3 million machine no one makes the control computer for anymore and it's 6 years old...
It's $300 worth of scrap now, been looking for a control computer for almost a year!

I attended a seminar back in 1983 which concerned using general purpose desktop computers (at that time a Commodore VIC-20) to replace custom hardware and programmable logic controllers (PLCs). Could you do something similar? Using a generic PC with an appropriate interface card and programmed in Visual Basic for Applications?

[hdwhit]

JeepHammer wrote:
Hdwhit, I try to tell people that, but everyone wants light weight 'Wonder Materials' and CNC controls now...
You don't need aerospace materials or computer control to stamp rivets or bend brass, and when I tell them common materials are heavier, and the machine *Should* be a little overbuilt they scoff...

Once someone bolts it down to their bench it's unlikely a press is going anywhere. And if it does move, it probably won't be a long distance, so I believe - to paraphrase Barbara Streisand - "Cast Iron is Never Having to Get Another Press".

[hdwhit]

JeepHammer wrote:
The two types of presses I can't recommend, open side 'C' press, or a true 'Turret' press.
Guys with the big, old, heavy built true turret presses defend them to the death, but I've never seen one I couldn't walk up to and wobble the turret, and mounted on a center pin, angles the die away from centerline of the ram.
I've never seen one you couldn't wobble the ram sideways in the guide hole, which allows ram to deflect off centerline of the die.

I agree. Thank you for putting it so clearly and concisely.

[F. Guffey]

I seriously doubt anyone will ever wear the bore enough to where it would be problematic and as I have demonstrated it would not matter a whit if you have 1/10 an inch of slop as long as the ram does it's thing and pushes the case into the die when you operate it

I meant to say if not for the case alignment on the Rock Chucker there would be no alignment; WAIT! I did say that. I also said the ram is kicked forward at the top and back at the bottom. For me? That has never been a problem and it did not take me long to figure the Rock Chucker does not cam over. When adjusting the die in the Rock Chucker to the shell holder I apply the instructions for the non cam over press.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

To knurl or not to knurl? I said I like the ideal of knurling, after reaming the spiral knurl is still there, at the bottom of the valve guide is a vacuum. There is not much that can be done with the vacuum, I like the ideal of the knurl holding and slowing down the flow if oil down the guide.

And I know, shut the oil off with improved seals; back to the ideal of the knurl, a little bit of oil reduces guide ware.

F. Guffey

[xandi]

Y’all familiar with the rcbs summit press?
Would making something like that be any different?

[xandi]

I have an idea of using a 2 inch slice of railroad track as a base, maybe weld a platform,out of 1/2 plate, near the bottom. With Maybe 2 guide rods.
I also have a 66x147mm and a 35x157 round pieces of steel laying around, might one work for somethings

[JeepHammer]

King pin reamers are for TAPERED king pins.
I've never seen a straight through bore for a king pin, but I've not seen every king pin ever made.
Mostly big trucks & tractors...

I used a boring bar with twin cutting tools spaced for top/bottom of the press frame.
This allowed me to use a bearing support on the bar, in the 'O' opening of the press and made for an extremely precise bore.

Hounddawg, a collet supports the rim/groove and keeps it from expanding.
A collet keeps rim/groove pulled down, so head (headstamp surface) stays square.
A collet is the ONLY way I've found to 'Quick Change' brass with absloute control of form/centering of the brass.
Keep in mind the ATK/Federal uses collets to handle brass in high speed CNC production machining of brass for both Federal & Lake City brass.
Other than pin press tube forming dies, all the old heavy metal machines are mostly gone, everything is ultra light CNC controlled equipment.
Damn shame the old equipment was broken up & sold as scrap...

When the press is bored straight through in one process, the ram & die BORES are PRECISELY ALIGNED.
Any misalignment from that point will come from the threading process, or die bores that aren't centered.

This is opposed to a 'C' type (single support side) press that allows EVERY SINGLE BRASS to bend when the DIE misaligns (the 'C' opens up, misaligning the die).
If the die is misaligned with the ram, every single brass that goes through it has the potential to be 'Bent'.
Doesn't matter how square the ram is, doesn't matter how much slop is in the shell holder.
When the die is ANGLED to the ram, the ram providing force to the case HEAD, the case SIDES will deflect from the head. Bent cases...

Since press builders understand this, I believe this is the reason for so many 'Co-Axial' and 'O' frame presses.

An 'Arbor' press is just WAY overbuilt, and shouldn't deflect too much. If it's an older American made arbor press and not one of the 'China Mystery Metal' press, it *Should* do the job,and would be the exception to not using a 'C' frame press.
Arbor presses aren't really set up to do reloading, so you had better be handy with making adapters...

I warned you I was OCD,
Now, keep in mind I had to make centerline jigs just to measure concentricity changes, to measure run-out on the head to find these issues since I didn't own a 'C' frame press at the time.
Obsessed with concentricity, I was convinced I was on the edge of a breakthrough... Notice there wasn't any big articles on breakthroughs... No revelations found... Go figure!

I found that bolt faces were often plug milled as much angled as the brass came out of the 'O' frame presses, making any precise squaring off the head to case wall completely moot.
It *Might* make 0.0005" difference if the bolt face were precisely lapped square with chamber, but that goes out the window if the chamber has ANY slop in it, which virtually 100% do have some slop...
Lots of time & money spent on OCD brass without thinking through the firearm imperfections!

I still hone/lap dies to fit specific chambers in bench rifles, which usually have dies & case gauges cut with the same chamber cutting tools,
While common rifles (99.9999%) come with precut chambers so making the die fit the chamber is the way to go.
Common chambers rarely need a specialized die since the rest of the rifle isn't optimized, so no point, and most people are fine with 1-1/2 to 2 MOA @ 100 yds.

[hounddawg]

don't know how much plainer I can say it but if there is not play in the case holder to allow the case to align itself to the bore of a full length die you would damage the case or it would not be able to enter the die unless it was perfectly centered on the bore of the die. If the case was off center from a full length die by even .0001 and the case head was being rigidly held with no room for movement then either the case would have to bend .0001 or .0001 would be shaved off the brass or the FL die would have to move before it would enter the die. Something has to give in that siruation.

rather than design case holders that are perfectly aligned to the die it is easier to just allow the case to align itself. That is why case holders are designed to allow the case to float

[jmorris]

King pin reamers are for TAPERED king pins.
I've never seen a straight through bore for a king pin, but I've not seen every king pin ever made.

I can’t say I have ever come across a tapered kingpin in automotive use.

If they were tapered, the depth you run the reamer down would be critical and it’s not with the ones like in #33.

[F. Guffey]

And I have reamers in sets, I have reamers that were given to me if I purchased a certain brand of parts. Norma was like that in the old days, I am sure I have one of their reamers for the 308 Norma mag, as sure as I know I have one I am as sure it would require some digging to find it.

Tapered reamers: I have tapered reamers, I have tapered taps and I have tapered plugs that are threaded but I do not have tapered reamers for king pin bushings. I have a large set of reamers that are adjustable; to be adjustable there has to be a taper somewhere.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

And I have had questions about the strongest rifle in the world, I have said forget the strongest rifle in the world I want the cases. Later Remington built the rifle of ring around the ring around the ring.

And then I thought about making a tool that would check alignment between the ram and the die, and then I had another thought about building it to check the alignment under a load or without a load.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

JMorris, the bottom press looks a lot like a B&M press made in the '50s.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

With press frame lathe mounted on the tool cradle, cutting tool mounted between centers, you get as close to an absloute straight line as is possible on common equipment.

I saw a YouTube video where a home caster melted small engine crankshafts and poured his own press frame, cast steel. Keep in mind the pouring wasn't 'Forged' after the casting, so it *Could* have voids &
fault lines (bubbles & pour line faults).
It looked really interesting, but pouring molten steel isn't something everyone wants to set up for.
I'll cast aluminum & brass, but steel is MUCH more difficult and takes much more time & energy to do.

Figure in the cost & time to cast a press frame, it makes more sense to build a press like the ones shown in pictures above.

The biggest issue I have with 'Co-Axial' type presses is small diameter rods that can stretch & deflect.
The biggest issue I have with 'O' frame presses is small diameter rams, again, deflection.
The second biggest is the length of the guide for the ram, which in industral presses is usually twice the length of the diameter of the ram/rods.
Industral presses often have guides 3X & 4X the diameter of the ram.
It's a surface area/support thing. The small amount of weight & extra material would keep the ram from deflecting, also allow for lubrication groove that would substantially prolong useful life of the press.
Light surface lubrication significantly increases life of presses, we all know that, but industral presses usually have a lubrication delivery groove(s) and a reservoir for continuous delivery.

I think it was Mr. Guffy that commented on knurling to hold grease, but a continuous grease delivery device is a GREAT thing on a press! Positive grease delivery means there is always grease, and where grease is, moisture & crud can't get in...

Now, keep in mind the grease delivery 'Cups' (spring loaded) don't have to be hanging right off the press frame in the way. A grease gun 'Whip' hose is just a few bucks and allows you to remotely locate the 'continuous greaser' so it's not in your way.

These lubricator 'Cups' are called Single Point Lubricator
This link will show you what they look like,
https://weldwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/ei...:1:025=B1741-A

Guys that reload a bunch will appreciate the continuous lubrication...

[BigJimP]

Go back and read HiBC's comments again...he speaks wisely of the process !!

( didn't I see a thread where you wanted to design and make your own revolver from scratch too ...../...ambitious !! )..