Flintlocks - What is the difference?

[rwilson452]

What is the difference between a flintlock Pennsylvania rifle and a flintlock Kentucky rifle?

[RickB]

I've never looked up a definition, but when I was a kid, I'd decided it was the lines of the buttstock; the Kentucky had straight lines to the comb and lower line of the buttstock, while the Pennsylvania was curved, top and bottom.
I'm sure that's a simplification, and there's probably overlap, but that was my impression.

[Schlitz 45]

There’s no difference between the two styles. Pennsylvania’s tend to have a barrel that’s a couple of inches longer but not always. Much more things in common between them than there are differences other than the regional origin.

[jmr40]

I've always considered the Pennsylvania rifles to be as much a work of art as a rifle, while the Kentucky rifle was more utilitarian. But I could have misinterpreted some things.

[pete2]

I think it's just style, much the same tho.

[44 AMP]

What is the difference between a flintlock Pennsylvania rifle and a flintlock Kentucky rifle?

The name.

And that's about it.

There may be collectors today who have created categories, but originally there were no "official" distinctions. Individual gunsmiths in all the colonies made rifles. When Kentucky was the frontier, rifles made for frontier use came to be called "Kentucky rifles" or Kentucky Long Rifles" no matter where they were made. Many (but by no means all) were made by gunsmiths in Pennsylvania.

Each individual gunsmith made the rifles to their own idea of what was "right", or to the customer's order, there was no set pattern, only general similarities of style.

I don't recall much use of the term "Pennsylvania Long Rifle" when I was a youth. Everyone with an interest in them called them "Kentucky rifles" as a class, and knew that many, if not most were actually made in Pennsylvania.

[Paul B.]

I'm trying to recall where I read it, but IIRC, most of the rifles were made in Pennsylvania but saw the greatest use in Kentucky, thus gaining the name "Kentucky rifle".
Paul B.

[hikingman]

The Kentucky rifle was rifled with helical grooving. The Pennsylvania was smoothbore. This would seem to make another difference other than the name.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by hikingman

The Kentucky rifle was rifled with helical grooving. The Pennsylvania was smoothbore.

Source?

That's not something I have ever heard or read before.

[44 AMP]

if its a smoothbore, its NOT a "rifle".

[mehavey]

If one believes the Internet (which is 91.234% correct), the Kentucky rifle was in fact the Pennsylvania rifle -- Pennsylvania/German/Swiss in gunsmith design/origin.

"Kentucky" came about as a result of who were carrying them in Jackson's defense of New Orleans, and later the regional origins of American transplants who evolved through war again to become Texicans in the 1830s.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[reinert]

I have an old book titled, "The Kentucky Rifle," by Merril Lindsay (1972 edition). It's a book of photographs of 77 fine old original longrifles photographed by a man named Bruce Pendelton. All these highly crafted, beautifully ornate old guns were gathered in one place from all over the United States. Mr. Lindsay in his intro of the book asks the question, "Where did the name come from?" Here's what he wrote:

"Following the American victory at the Battle of New Orleans, substantially won by the Kentucky rifle in the hands of about two thousand frontiersmen from Kentucky, a ballad, "The Hunters of Kentucky," was written. It dramatized the exploits of these undisciplined riflemen who defeated the military might of England. The ballad became widely popular throughout the new nation, so much so that the version sung at the Chatham Garden Theatre in New York City was published in the form of sheet music by George Willig in Pennsylvania German before it had run its course. In the fifth stanza of the lyrics, the Kentucky rifle received its name which was to stay with it from that time on. The expression "Kentucky rifle" became one of those singular examples of a designation documented in its own period."

"But Jackson he was wide awake and wasn't scar'd at trifles
For well he knew what aim we take, with our KENTUCKY RIFLES,
So he led us down to Cypress Swamp, the ground was low and Mucky,
There stood John Bull in martial pomp but here was old Kentucky."

"The frontiersmen who went to Kentucky and on into Louisiana Territory bought and brought their rifles from Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia but chiefly from Pennsylvania towns along the roads leading to the West are remembered as the locations of the schools of rifle design. There were few, if any, Kentucky rifles made in Kentucky, although there were some Kentuckys made in Tennessee, Ohio and Indiana..."

So, the name according to the author, Mr. Merril Lindsay.

Also according to Mr. Lindsay, the Lancaster (Pennsylvania) school of gunsmithing was in all probability the original home of the "Kentucky" rifle, and Lancaster gunsmith Jacob Dickert was one of the most well-known makers of the rifles.

[4V50 Gary]

It's about style.

There's no actual state pattern and it depends on the maker. It's more a county style and virtually every county at one time or another had a gunsmith. The gunsmith himself made things either to move quickly (at which point he decided what to do) or if the customer was willing to pay and wait, what the customer desired. There are volumes of books on guns made in various counties and states and if you go to Friendship, Indiana, check out the NMLRA research library.

[bladesmith 1]

Actually back in the day some guns looked like rifles [ rifle sights ] but were smoothbore. And that's what they were called - smoothbore rifles. I never understood that term.
On another note take todays terms. Here in Michigan we use to have in the southern part of the state deer hunting with only shotguns or muzzle loaders. It was because of the more populated areas and how far a bullet would carry. Well now years latter we have muzzle loaders shooting sabots and "shotguns " with rifle barrels. Give me a break. It's just another way to sell more deer licenses. Or appease the insurance industry.

[bladesmith 1]

rwilson, if you're really interested, join the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association. I started shooting muzzleloaders around 1971 and joined the first year as a Life member. It was a good investment. I've gotten their monthly magazine free for over 50 years and go to many of their shoots. Same goes for the NRA.

[4V50 Gary]

"Smoothbore rifles" were either made with smoothbore or had bores that were worn out and cut smooth later. Somewhat contradictory term but hey, that what some guys called them back then.

The basic difference would be the style. A smoothbore rifle looked like a rifle and until examined, its nature was unknown. Fowlers have a style of their own and were noted for their lightness for ease of handling.

What bladesmith1 says has merit. Consider joining the NMLRA. They offer classes (you don't need to be a member), matches (including postal matches), and have a magazine, Muzzle Blasts. I've numerous articles published in that magazine. I wish they would publish Journal of Historical Arms Making Vol. 6. They have the articles, but not the $$$ to publish. I suggested they do it by subscription (collect the money and when there's enough, publish and send each subscriber a copy). I managed to get Vol. 1-5 the first year I visited Friendship (where HQ is) which was the year they stopped stocking them. It took my classmate (Trinidad State) over five years to build a complete set.

[bladesmith 1]

The Trade gun I built to compete in local Trade Gun matches is actually a New England Fowler, and as Gary says, nice and light. But hey, it meets the requirements - smoothbore flintlock with no rear sight above the plane of the barrel. The reason was I had a 12ga barrel I bought [ years ago - late 70s ] at a garage sale. It was actually a shotgun kit someone had screwed up and the only thing good was the barrel. Always being short on money back then the only other thing I needed was a good lock, so I bought a L&R along with a hunk of maple. Made the rest of the items needed. SBs can be pretty accurate out to 50 yards. At least to kill a deer size target. One time at a local shoot on the 50yd smooth bore match I kept five shots within the 9 ring [ 47 ] for a win. It's all about putting your face the same place on the stock each time. Lots of fun to shoot. I even use my Matchlock sometimes, but that's a different story all together. When you get a deer with your SB you'll feel like you reconnected with your fore fathers.