Same brass reloaded X times...

ninosdemente · July 28, 2019, 11:26 PM

I have about 250 Remington brass that I had loaded about 5 times now. On today's range trip I noticed on a few of them that there were some almost ghostly ring in the middle and some had some "scratches/cracks in middle of brass" what to me looked like it was getting read to split open possibly on another load. Those scratches/cracks did not open. I decided to no longer use them and start off with fresh once fired brass that I had bought previously waiting for their turn, which is not much... 250 total and 100 still new in the box. Planning on getting to reach a total of 500 as they are on sale now at Cabelas. I do load for 30-06 but I have only done those twice so far and only have about 100 of those.

Curious to see what others use brand/caliber and how many times you have loaded your brass before you no longer used them or still are using them.

The more powder, the quicker the brass wears out??

jag2 · July 29, 2019, 12:10 AM

Some will say we need pictures, but not me. Would help if we knew the caliber, rifle, pistol, powder load, etc. I don't load much rifle but I know they have a limited life span. On the other hand, I have 9mm that I swear have been loaded at least a hundred times. Main problem with 9mm is a flat primer from too much pressure or I stepped on it.

Unique · July 29, 2019, 01:47 AM

Never loaded 250 but have 30-06, 270, 223, 22-250 and more. I usually get around 15 or so then primer pockets will get too loose or necks get too thin and brittle and or split.

And that number 15 is just around there. Some more some less.

ninosdemente · July 29, 2019, 01:52 AM

Apologies for the typo. It is 250 - .223 Remington

ninosdemente · July 29, 2019, 01:58 AM

.223 Remington
Savage 12FV
CCI 450
Varget - 23.4gr up to 25.4gr
IMR 4064 - 22.9gr up to 24.9

sparkyv · July 29, 2019, 06:45 AM

My 223Rem brass lasts many more than 5x reloads. I shoot mostly heavy pills, mostly over Varget. I should think that you could get more use out of the brass...what else could be going on?

hounddawg · July 29, 2019, 07:11 AM

if you see a ring around the brass check the inside using the paperclip method to see if a crack is developing before reloading. That is a good habit to get into whether the ring is noticed or not.

Quote:

First step is to keep your eyes open for a very shiny ring in the area I’ve described. As the brass thins in this area, it makes the brass shine brighter than the rest of the case.
The second method is very, very high-tech. I use a straightened paper clip, with the last ¼” bent at right angles as a “feeler”, and if the brass is thin you’ll feel the case wall change as the brass gets thin.

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/br...breaking-point

AgedWarrior · July 29, 2019, 08:06 AM

I get a lot of reloads out of .223 brass that is shot out of a bolt action gun; I would think you could too. But it sounds as if your brass is being fatigued a bit premature. I was really wondering about your loads; you do not specify bullet weights, and powder charges alone raise a couple questions in my mind. Your rifle does not have a fast enough twist to effectively shoot bullets heavier than 65 grains without starting to run into stability problems. If you are using bullets from 55 to 65 grains, your charges might be in a good range. If you are shooting small pills (40 to 50) you are off the charts on the low end of most all data I looked at. This is not a good place to be because it can cause problems effectively lighting off the load of powder (really dangerous in bigger rifles!) and thus creating higher pressures than normal because the bullet pushes into the lands and grooves slightly before the main body of powder ignites (all in a split second). This is an abbreviated explanation, but suffice it to say, you should review your load data and insure you stay within published criteria per bullet used.

Don Fischer · July 29, 2019, 09:08 AM

I get about 5 reloads I'm happy. Thing is I like high pressure loads and they are pretty hard on case's. If you use a 300 mag loaded down to 308, shoot, get a 308! Even if case's cost one dollar each, reload them 5 time's and they cost twenty cent's. Most case's are simply not that expensive! Throw those suspect case's away and get new one's. Been a couple years since I bought new case's. Think they were 6.5x55 and cost me something like $35 fo 50. Load them five time's and the cost would be fourteen cent's a case. By five loading's my primer pocket's were shooting loose. Yea, hot loads, I know!

T. O'Heir · July 29, 2019, 09:39 AM

"...scratches/cracks..." Two very different things. Brass is soft stuff, scratches will happen to matter what you do or how many times a case has been reloaded.
An impending crack is a different critter. Usually starts as looking a bit like a stretch mark.
"...quicker the brass wears out??..." Case life depends entirely on the load used. That isn't necessarily about the amount of powder. It's the pressures the powder generates that matters.
Couldn't tell you how many times my .30-06 cases(or any of my other calibres) have been reloaded. Use the same brass in my M1 Rifle and my '03A4 with different loads. Use 'em until one case mouth/neck cracks, then pitch that one and anneal the rest.
"...CCI 450..." That's a magnum primer. Neither Varget or IMR4064 require a magnum primer. Not a big deal if you do though.
"...Varget 23.4gr up to 25.4gr..." You need to work up the load according to the bullet weight. No ranges of powder weights involved.

Bart B. · July 29, 2019, 01:03 PM

Several dozen reloads per 30-06 or 308 case has been done often with max loads. Full length sizing fired cases setting (bumping, moving, relocating or repositioning) case shoulders back 1 to 2 thousandths. Two dozen with belted cases resized again with the Willis collet die touching the belt. With minimum SAAMI spec chambers.

F. Guffey · July 29, 2019, 02:44 PM

A former member named Watts had thousands upon thousands of cases pass through his hands (by the barrel full). He wanted for nothing when it came to cases. He fired cases 4 times and then started on the next batch. He asked me if I was interested in the cases, most were test fired cases. I had no fear of the test cases and I would be interested if they allowed me to measure the cases before they tested them and again after firing. That did not happen.

I have no interest and or nothing to gain by piling up numbers on fired cases. First it is too easy to exaggerate, and then there is vanity. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel and by some miracle some of my rifles are exempt from the curse of the firing pin driving the case to the shoulder of the chamber. But if that happened I am the only reloader on this forum that can look at or measure the case to determine 'what happened'

.

F. Guffey

ninosdemente · July 29, 2019, 07:02 PM

sparkyv, I honestly have no clue. I don't know if I am doing something wrong during the resizing step.

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hounddawg, thanks for that article... just read it. I did read something regarding a paper clip late last year. Obviously I forgot about that.

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AgedWarrior, I use 69gr Nosler CC (mostly), have tried Barnes MB 69, Hornady Vmax 60gr (no longer use). The powders at charges loaded are from Lyman which I compare with Hornady. Still about 2 grs from max. I haven't done 55gr, but did buy 1,000 to use for casual shooting for friends/family.

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T. O'Heir, the impending scratches you refer to I ran my fingernail across the brass and when I do so, causes my finger to stop at that point. I have done ladder tests that corresponds the projectile weight given in the Lyman book.

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Bart B./F. Guffey, thanks for your reply.

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Will take some pictures and post them.

Bart B. · July 29, 2019, 07:24 PM

Are you measuring case headspace before and after full length sizing to verify shoulder is set back .002 inch?

Good info here...

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cart...guides/223rem/

hounddawg · July 29, 2019, 08:30 PM

Quote:

I did read something regarding a paper clip late last year. Obviously I forgot about that.

it's a good habit to get into after every firing, case separations can do some serious damage to both the rifle and the shooter. I do a full case inspection after depinning, sizing and cleaning. Takes about ten seconds on average per case.

ninosdemente · July 29, 2019, 08:48 PM

Here are some pictures...

There was one in particular that was "worse" than the ones shown. Couldn't find it... could of sworn I had at least two. But in black circle you can see them. The red is the "ghost" ring I mentioned. I did see those marks on the other reloaded brass that has been tumbled. Also, checked the once fired brass and that mark is there as well. Did not take picture of the once fired brass which was also tumbled.

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/106.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/107.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/108.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/109.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/110.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/111.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/112.jpg

ninosdemente · July 29, 2019, 08:51 PM

As mentioned I can run my fingernail and feel it. Now I am just curious as to the same marks that appear on the once fired brass.

Bart B. · July 29, 2019, 09:07 PM

Those marks look like the cases bounced off something after being ejected. Shoot some others in another rifle to see what happens.

sako2 · July 29, 2019, 09:31 PM

A crack would have jagged edges. If you have a ice pick or a dart see if you can push it throw the marks.

ninosdemente · July 29, 2019, 09:32 PM

I have a Savage 12fv 6.5 creedmoor and all 150cases have the same mark after being fired.

Perhaps I was jumping into conclusions??

hounddawg · July 29, 2019, 10:24 PM

all seem to be in the same place. Load some cases without marks and take a sharpie make a mark on each, then load them in the rifle with the mark facing up. After firing see if the scratches appear in the same place, might be a issue with the chamber. Also cycle some fresh case through without firing to see if somehow the ejection cycle is somehow scratching them

Sierra case diagnostics part I

Sierra case diagnostics part II

Bart B. · July 30, 2019, 09:13 AM

hounddawg,

Nice links to Sierra's info on fired cases. Thanks for posting them

F. Guffey · July 30, 2019, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Will take some pictures and post them.

You are welcome; there is one case that has a habit of separating 'about' half way between the shoulder and case head, the cases in the picture with the red markings is not one of them. Unless the case does not lock to the chamber when fired. That would be if the case locked to the front of the chamber but did not lock to the rear of the chamber.

Case head separation happens between the case head and case body 'at the first opportunity'. There are reloaders that can not do anything about 'it'. They are the ones that start with a minimum length/full length sized case in a go-gage length chamber with killer firing pins. Their firing pins are so powerful they shorten the case between the shoulder of the case to the case head .005".

I feel so blessed because I have killer firing pins that do not drive the case, powder and bullet forward to the shoulder of the chamber when the firing pin strikes the primer.

I have one rifle that has .016" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber, when I fire minimum length/full length sized cases in that rifle the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head increases .016" without the case moving.

F. Guffey

ninosdemente · July 30, 2019, 12:18 PM

Bart, thanks for the link. Sure does have a lot of information. No I do not measure for headspace.

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sako2, I tried it and the pick doesn't go through it.

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hounddawg, thanks for those links as well. very informative stuff on the site. will definitely do that on the next loads. Doesn't hurt trying, after all its for my benefit.

cw308 · July 30, 2019, 03:15 PM

nino
Your Savage 12FV in 223 is a nice riifle , bull barrel 1 in 9 twist floating bolt face with a accurtrigger . To me your brass looked pretty rough , are you trimming to the same length ? To test I would pick let's say 50 cases same brand , full length size them measuring first fired size , chamber fired clean case then size down until it chambers without resistance , then size the remaining and testing every few cases . Savage is turning out some accurate rifles so the chanbers should be fed properly sized cases . Clean up those cases being tested even if you have to clean them up with 0000 steel wool , may take some time but may be worth it . All should be sized to the same measurement and trimmed to the same length. It's designed for accuracy , you may have to baby it and feed it quantity reloads . Savage also doesn't have alot of free bore on their varmint and LRP rifles . Keep your chamber clean , how often do you clean your rifle . Cases being tested should be smooth and clean to give a good test with a clean chamber. When you raise the bolt does it feel rough ? If so does it happen from the first round or does it get rougher as time goes on . A shooting friend has a chamber so tight he has to clean every 5 shots .

July 28, 2019, 11:26 PM	#1
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Same brass reloaded X times... I have about 250 Remington brass that I had loaded about 5 times now. On today's range trip I noticed on a few of them that there were some almost ghostly ring in the middle and some had some "scratches/cracks in middle of brass" what to me looked like it was getting read to split open possibly on another load. Those scratches/cracks did not open. I decided to no longer use them and start off with fresh once fired brass that I had bought previously waiting for their turn, which is not much... 250 total and 100 still new in the box. Planning on getting to reach a total of 500 as they are on sale now at Cabelas. I do load for 30-06 but I have only done those twice so far and only have about 100 of those. Curious to see what others use brand/caliber and how many times you have loaded your brass before you no longer used them or still are using them. The more powder, the quicker the brass wears out??

July 29, 2019, 06:45 AM	#6
sparkyv Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2015 Location: Deepinnaheartta,Texas Posts: 318	My 223Rem brass lasts many more than 5x reloads. I shoot mostly heavy pills, mostly over Varget. I should think that you could get more use out of the brass...what else could be going on? __________________ μολὼν λαβέ NRA Life Member

July 29, 2019, 09:39 AM	#10
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...scratches/cracks..." Two very different things. Brass is soft stuff, scratches will happen to matter what you do or how many times a case has been reloaded. An impending crack is a different critter. Usually starts as looking a bit like a stretch mark. "...quicker the brass wears out??..." Case life depends entirely on the load used. That isn't necessarily about the amount of powder. It's the pressures the powder generates that matters. Couldn't tell you how many times my .30-06 cases(or any of my other calibres) have been reloaded. Use the same brass in my M1 Rifle and my '03A4 with different loads. Use 'em until one case mouth/neck cracks, then pitch that one and anneal the rest. "...CCI 450..." That's a magnum primer. Neither Varget or IMR4064 require a magnum primer. Not a big deal if you do though. "...Varget 23.4gr up to 25.4gr..." You need to work up the load according to the bullet weight. No ranges of powder weights involved. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 29, 2019, 02:44 PM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	A former member named Watts had thousands upon thousands of cases pass through his hands (by the barrel full). He wanted for nothing when it came to cases. He fired cases 4 times and then started on the next batch. He asked me if I was interested in the cases, most were test fired cases. I had no fear of the test cases and I would be interested if they allowed me to measure the cases before they tested them and again after firing. That did not happen. I have no interest and or nothing to gain by piling up numbers on fired cases. First it is too easy to exaggerate, and then there is vanity. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel and by some miracle some of my rifles are exempt from the curse of the firing pin driving the case to the shoulder of the chamber. But if that happened I am the only reloader on this forum that can look at or measure the case to determine 'what happened'. F. Guffey

July 29, 2019, 10:24 PM	#21
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	all seem to be in the same place. Load some cases without marks and take a sharpie make a mark on each, then load them in the rifle with the mark facing up. After firing see if the scratches appear in the same place, might be a issue with the chamber. Also cycle some fresh case through without firing to see if somehow the ejection cycle is somehow scratching them Sierra case diagnostics part I Sierra case diagnostics part II __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

July 29, 2019, 12:10 AM	#2
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Some will say we need pictures, but not me. Would help if we knew the caliber, rifle, pistol, powder load, etc. I don't load much rifle but I know they have a limited life span. On the other hand, I have 9mm that I swear have been loaded at least a hundred times. Main problem with 9mm is a flat primer from too much pressure or I stepped on it.

July 29, 2019, 01:47 AM	#3
Unique Member Join Date: May 22, 2017 Location: Central Texas Posts: 67	Never loaded 250 but have 30-06, 270, 223, 22-250 and more. I usually get around 15 or so then primer pockets will get too loose or necks get too thin and brittle and or split. And that number 15 is just around there. Some more some less.

July 29, 2019, 01:52 AM	#4
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Apologies for the typo. It is 250 - .223 Remington

July 29, 2019, 01:58 AM	#5
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	.223 Remington Savage 12FV CCI 450 Varget - 23.4gr up to 25.4gr IMR 4064 - 22.9gr up to 24.9

July 29, 2019, 08:06 AM	#8
AgedWarrior Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2019 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 210	I get a lot of reloads out of .223 brass that is shot out of a bolt action gun; I would think you could too. But it sounds as if your brass is being fatigued a bit premature. I was really wondering about your loads; you do not specify bullet weights, and powder charges alone raise a couple questions in my mind. Your rifle does not have a fast enough twist to effectively shoot bullets heavier than 65 grains without starting to run into stability problems. If you are using bullets from 55 to 65 grains, your charges might be in a good range. If you are shooting small pills (40 to 50) you are off the charts on the low end of most all data I looked at. This is not a good place to be because it can cause problems effectively lighting off the load of powder (really dangerous in bigger rifles!) and thus creating higher pressures than normal because the bullet pushes into the lands and grooves slightly before the main body of powder ignites (all in a split second). This is an abbreviated explanation, but suffice it to say, you should review your load data and insure you stay within published criteria per bullet used.

July 29, 2019, 09:08 AM	#9
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I get about 5 reloads I'm happy. Thing is I like high pressure loads and they are pretty hard on case's. If you use a 300 mag loaded down to 308, shoot, get a 308! Even if case's cost one dollar each, reload them 5 time's and they cost twenty cent's. Most case's are simply not that expensive! Throw those suspect case's away and get new one's. Been a couple years since I bought new case's. Think they were 6.5x55 and cost me something like $35 fo 50. Load them five time's and the cost would be fourteen cent's a case. By five loading's my primer pocket's were shooting loose. Yea, hot loads, I know!

July 29, 2019, 01:03 PM	#11
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Several dozen reloads per 30-06 or 308 case has been done often with max loads. Full length sizing fired cases setting (bumping, moving, relocating or repositioning) case shoulders back 1 to 2 thousandths. Two dozen with belted cases resized again with the Willis collet die touching the belt. With minimum SAAMI spec chambers.

July 29, 2019, 07:02 PM	#13
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	sparkyv, I honestly have no clue. I don't know if I am doing something wrong during the resizing step. ------ hounddawg, thanks for that article... just read it. I did read something regarding a paper clip late last year. Obviously I forgot about that. ------ AgedWarrior, I use 69gr Nosler CC (mostly), have tried Barnes MB 69, Hornady Vmax 60gr (no longer use). The powders at charges loaded are from Lyman which I compare with Hornady. Still about 2 grs from max. I haven't done 55gr, but did buy 1,000 to use for casual shooting for friends/family. ------ T. O'Heir, the impending scratches you refer to I ran my fingernail across the brass and when I do so, causes my finger to stop at that point. I have done ladder tests that corresponds the projectile weight given in the Lyman book. ------ Bart B./F. Guffey, thanks for your reply. ------ Will take some pictures and post them.

July 29, 2019, 07:24 PM	#14
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Are you measuring case headspace before and after full length sizing to verify shoulder is set back .002 inch? Good info here... https://www.accurateshooter.com/cart...guides/223rem/

July 29, 2019, 08:48 PM	#16
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Here are some pictures... There was one in particular that was "worse" than the ones shown. Couldn't find it... could of sworn I had at least two. But in black circle you can see them. The red is the "ghost" ring I mentioned. I did see those marks on the other reloaded brass that has been tumbled. Also, checked the once fired brass and that mark is there as well. Did not take picture of the once fired brass which was also tumbled. http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/106.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/107.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/108.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/109.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/110.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/111.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/112.jpg

July 29, 2019, 08:51 PM	#17
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	As mentioned I can run my fingernail and feel it. Now I am just curious as to the same marks that appear on the once fired brass.

July 29, 2019, 09:07 PM	#18
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Those marks look like the cases bounced off something after being ejected. Shoot some others in another rifle to see what happens.

July 29, 2019, 09:31 PM	#19
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 741	A crack would have jagged edges. If you have a ice pick or a dart see if you can push it throw the marks.

July 29, 2019, 09:32 PM	#20
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I have a Savage 12fv 6.5 creedmoor and all 150cases have the same mark after being fired. Perhaps I was jumping into conclusions??

July 30, 2019, 09:13 AM	#22
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	hounddawg, Nice links to Sierra's info on fired cases. Thanks for posting them

July 30, 2019, 12:18 PM	#24
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Bart, thanks for the link. Sure does have a lot of information. No I do not measure for headspace. ------ sako2, I tried it and the pick doesn't go through it. ------ hounddawg, thanks for those links as well. very informative stuff on the site. will definitely do that on the next loads. Doesn't hurt trying, after all its for my benefit.

July 30, 2019, 03:15 PM	#25
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	nino Your Savage 12FV in 223 is a nice riifle , bull barrel 1 in 9 twist floating bolt face with a accurtrigger . To me your brass looked pretty rough , are you trimming to the same length ? To test I would pick let's say 50 cases same brand , full length size them measuring first fired size , chamber fired clean case then size down until it chambers without resistance , then size the remaining and testing every few cases . Savage is turning out some accurate rifles so the chanbers should be fed properly sized cases . Clean up those cases being tested even if you have to clean them up with 0000 steel wool , may take some time but may be worth it . All should be sized to the same measurement and trimmed to the same length. It's designed for accuracy , you may have to baby it and feed it quantity reloads . Savage also doesn't have alot of free bore on their varmint and LRP rifles . Keep your chamber clean , how often do you clean your rifle . Cases being tested should be smooth and clean to give a good test with a clean chamber. When you raise the bolt does it feel rough ? If so does it happen from the first round or does it get rougher as time goes on . A shooting friend has a chamber so tight he has to clean every 5 shots .