Prepping surface without beadblasting?

Shorts · May 21, 2005, 10:40 PM

I was just curious as to if there was another method to preparing a gun surface for finish without using a beadblaster. Will the old school rub-with-sandpaper method prep the surface enough?

When dad I did built stuff for our trucks, we couldn't always get to the sandblasting machine at the shop, so we just prepped the surface with a good scrubbing of sandpaper and wiped it down, then it was good to go.

Dave Haven · May 21, 2005, 10:46 PM

It depends on the finish you want. Buffing wheels are commonly used with anything from 320 grit to jeweler's rouge. It all depends on how dull or shiny you want it.
This is referring to a blued finish.

Shorts · May 21, 2005, 11:15 PM

Yes, referring to a blued finish after the blueing was stripped with a 50/50 muriatic acid and water.

For a parked surface, is sandpapering also a way to remove the park? The acid/water solution does not removed that from the metal. right?

cntryboy1289 · May 22, 2005, 01:22 PM

For parkerizing, the part needs the surface roughed more than sandpaper normally does. It needs to be blasted. I use aluminum oxide instead of glass beads because I like the finish it leaves better.

**Unclenick** · May 22, 2005, 04:27 PM

Iosso (http://iosso.com/metal.htm) makes a reusable finish remover called Quickstrip (#10403, 28.95/gal) that removes both bluing and Parkerizing. I've used it for both and it works fine.

The best Parkerizing bond comes from abrasive blasting because it creates the greatest surface area for the acid to react with. I've had very good results bead blasting for manganese phosphate Parkerizing, but the traditional zinc phosphate doesn't do as well on a bead blasted surface. For specific abrasives, the pre-finish prep recommendations at tenring.com for their TR Gun Kote spray-on finish are good. They recommend Starblast 80 or Biasil 120 grit.

I don't know of any satisfactory way to prep the metal for Parkerizing without abrasives. An acid pickling etch should work if you get it rinsed and into the Parkerizing tank in a matter of minutes, but you have to be careful with this, especially with the bore, which should not recieve this treatment. One advantage to bluing is that it doesn't bother a bore or other working parts because it is so much thinner than a Parkerized finish. Buffing then polishing for bluing are the usual steps.

Nick

Shorts · May 22, 2005, 07:00 PM

Thanks for the input. I don't have a blast cabinet and as much as I'd probably need or use it, I'm not sure if I could justify the cost to my husband

Hence me asking about alternative methods.

unclenick, thanks for the link for the QuickStrip. Will that work to strip paints, say in automotive-type usage?

Dave Sample · May 23, 2005, 01:06 PM

Shorts: I have two blasters and if I can help you, I will. You can contact me at any of my three websites. www.1911patriotcop.us would work. I am on my summer drive-a-bout right now but will be back home June 2 or 3.

**Unclenick** · May 26, 2005, 08:10 PM

Shorts,

No, the Quickstrip is an acid solution of some sort. No methylene chloride or other solvent for stripping paint. I suppose the acid might strip it anyway, but that's not its intended purpose.

Going back to your original question, I suppose you could try wet/dry papers if you go to 400 grit or so. The issue is whether the surface can be rough enough to develop a thick enough coating of phosphate, yet not be so rough that the finish will "mirror" the direction of your sandpaper strokes on the surface? I suppose you could try to create an intentional pattern of swirls with the paper that looks good to youi, but I would experiment with all this on a sheet of weldable hot-rolled steel from the hardware store first.

You didn't explain whether you were setup for Parkerizing? It's not difficult, but mind the temperature range with a thermometer. It does affect results.

Nick

Shorts · May 26, 2005, 08:52 PM

I don't have my setup for parkerizing. But I'll put one up should I decide to go through with it. From the park projects I've read through, its something I can do here. I have plenty of setup room. On my upcoming project the frame and slide I'm getting will be blued. I prefer park but that isn't an option. No biggie. When I get the pistol running, I was considering stripping the blue and going with park. I was even considering the different shades of park for those nice subtle touches on the frame and controls.

Dave, thank you for the help. I'll need to wait a bit and see how things develop once I get started, then I can decide for sure. I'll keep my progress posted.

**Unclenick** · May 27, 2005, 09:53 PM

You can Parkerize successfully in cookware for pistol size parts. A stainless steel double-boiler works well, as does Pyrex cookware. A double boiler generally lands the solution in about the right temperature range without real effort. I had a stainless tank welded up to handle Garand barrels and op-rods with only a gallon of solution. With a 1/4 inch aluminum spreader plate on the bottom it heats very evenly. That's another consideration.

Different colors usually mean different solution base chemistry. I suppose zinc phosphate parkerizing, being very porous, might be amenable to some dies. It is often used as a paint base (take a look at the multi-color TR Gun Kote finishes (http://tenring.com/trcoating.html)). The black pre-dips cause its crystal structure to change some, so try this kind of stuff, or even diffent brands of solution on test metal first. Also, note that color changes with the hardness of the metal. Manganese phosphate and solutions containing nickel compounds are also dark to black. The manganese is very tough and more rugged than zinc. I've always used the Brownells solutions, but have heard people are very happy with the more expensive, but easier to use Shooter's Solutions parkerizing chemistry. I bought a sample kit from Shooter's solutions of both their chemistries, but haven't had an opportunity to try them yet.

I acquired a small rotocast plastic blast cabinet for about $125. I already had a good size compressor; you need 10-15 SCFM at 90 PSI to keep up with even a small blaster if you don't want to stop and rest a lot. My only complaint about the little cabinet is its gloves come loose easily. I believe Enco carried these at one point.

Nick

Dave Sample · May 28, 2005, 06:37 PM

There is one thing more about good Parkerizing. You should drop it right out of the blaster into the solution if you want the best results. If I need to blast for someone far away, I take the parts right out of the blaster and seal them in plastic Zip-locs for shipping. The person on the recieving end then can drop them in the pot right from the bags. It is a simple finish and fairly easy to do.

Shorts · June 21, 2005, 10:05 PM

Ok guys, my project just changed, now I WILL NEED to refinish the frame once it is up and running. I found an Officer's lower half that will be used instead of a new Commander frame. The blue is pretty worn, and there is a spot of rust I will need to get out. I haven't received the frame yet, but hopefully it'll be arriving this week or next. So, I'm going to Save-a-Gun. I'm pretty excited about this new twist

Oh, I just needed the thread to refresh my thoughts and I must save this to my user console.

May 21, 2005, 10:46 PM	#2
Dave Haven Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2000 Location: near Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 790	It depends on the finish you want. Buffing wheels are commonly used with anything from 320 grit to jeweler's rouge. It all depends on how dull or shiny you want it. This is referring to a blued finish. __________________ NRA Endowment Member FCSA Life Member Subs are cool, but belt-feds RULE!

May 22, 2005, 01:22 PM	#4
cntryboy1289 Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2004 Location: Ms Posts: 1,160	you need to blast the parts For parkerizing, the part needs the surface roughed more than sandpaper normally does. It needs to be blasted. I use aluminum oxide instead of glass beads because I like the finish it leaves better.

May 21, 2005, 10:40 PM	#1
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	Prepping surface without beadblasting? I was just curious as to if there was another method to preparing a gun surface for finish without using a beadblaster. Will the old school rub-with-sandpaper method prep the surface enough? When dad I did built stuff for our trucks, we couldn't always get to the sandblasting machine at the shop, so we just prepped the surface with a good scrubbing of sandpaper and wiped it down, then it was good to go.

May 21, 2005, 11:15 PM	#3
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	Yes, referring to a blued finish after the blueing was stripped with a 50/50 muriatic acid and water. For a parked surface, is sandpapering also a way to remove the park? The acid/water solution does not removed that from the metal. right?

May 22, 2005, 04:27 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,099	Iosso (http://iosso.com/metal.htm) makes a reusable finish remover called Quickstrip (#10403, 28.95/gal) that removes both bluing and Parkerizing. I've used it for both and it works fine. The best Parkerizing bond comes from abrasive blasting because it creates the greatest surface area for the acid to react with. I've had very good results bead blasting for manganese phosphate Parkerizing, but the traditional zinc phosphate doesn't do as well on a bead blasted surface. For specific abrasives, the pre-finish prep recommendations at tenring.com for their TR Gun Kote spray-on finish are good. They recommend Starblast 80 or Biasil 120 grit. I don't know of any satisfactory way to prep the metal for Parkerizing without abrasives. An acid pickling etch should work if you get it rinsed and into the Parkerizing tank in a matter of minutes, but you have to be careful with this, especially with the bore, which should not recieve this treatment. One advantage to bluing is that it doesn't bother a bore or other working parts because it is so much thinner than a Parkerized finish. Buffing then polishing for bluing are the usual steps. Nick

May 22, 2005, 07:00 PM	#6
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	Thanks for the input. I don't have a blast cabinet and as much as I'd probably need or use it, I'm not sure if I could justify the cost to my husband Hence me asking about alternative methods. unclenick, thanks for the link for the QuickStrip. Will that work to strip paints, say in automotive-type usage?

May 23, 2005, 01:06 PM	#7
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	Shorts: I have two blasters and if I can help you, I will. You can contact me at any of my three websites. www.1911patriotcop.us would work. I am on my summer drive-a-bout right now but will be back home June 2 or 3.

May 26, 2005, 08:10 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,099	Shorts, No, the Quickstrip is an acid solution of some sort. No methylene chloride or other solvent for stripping paint. I suppose the acid might strip it anyway, but that's not its intended purpose. Going back to your original question, I suppose you could try wet/dry papers if you go to 400 grit or so. The issue is whether the surface can be rough enough to develop a thick enough coating of phosphate, yet not be so rough that the finish will "mirror" the direction of your sandpaper strokes on the surface? I suppose you could try to create an intentional pattern of swirls with the paper that looks good to youi, but I would experiment with all this on a sheet of weldable hot-rolled steel from the hardware store first. You didn't explain whether you were setup for Parkerizing? It's not difficult, but mind the temperature range with a thermometer. It does affect results. Nick

May 26, 2005, 08:52 PM	#9
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	I don't have my setup for parkerizing. But I'll put one up should I decide to go through with it. From the park projects I've read through, its something I can do here. I have plenty of setup room. On my upcoming project the frame and slide I'm getting will be blued. I prefer park but that isn't an option. No biggie. When I get the pistol running, I was considering stripping the blue and going with park. I was even considering the different shades of park for those nice subtle touches on the frame and controls. Dave, thank you for the help. I'll need to wait a bit and see how things develop once I get started, then I can decide for sure. I'll keep my progress posted.

May 27, 2005, 09:53 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,099	You can Parkerize successfully in cookware for pistol size parts. A stainless steel double-boiler works well, as does Pyrex cookware. A double boiler generally lands the solution in about the right temperature range without real effort. I had a stainless tank welded up to handle Garand barrels and op-rods with only a gallon of solution. With a 1/4 inch aluminum spreader plate on the bottom it heats very evenly. That's another consideration. Different colors usually mean different solution base chemistry. I suppose zinc phosphate parkerizing, being very porous, might be amenable to some dies. It is often used as a paint base (take a look at the multi-color TR Gun Kote finishes (http://tenring.com/trcoating.html)). The black pre-dips cause its crystal structure to change some, so try this kind of stuff, or even diffent brands of solution on test metal first. Also, note that color changes with the hardness of the metal. Manganese phosphate and solutions containing nickel compounds are also dark to black. The manganese is very tough and more rugged than zinc. I've always used the Brownells solutions, but have heard people are very happy with the more expensive, but easier to use Shooter's Solutions parkerizing chemistry. I bought a sample kit from Shooter's solutions of both their chemistries, but haven't had an opportunity to try them yet. I acquired a small rotocast plastic blast cabinet for about $125. I already had a good size compressor; you need 10-15 SCFM at 90 PSI to keep up with even a small blaster if you don't want to stop and rest a lot. My only complaint about the little cabinet is its gloves come loose easily. I believe Enco carried these at one point. Nick

May 28, 2005, 06:37 PM	#11
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	There is one thing more about good Parkerizing. You should drop it right out of the blaster into the solution if you want the best results. If I need to blast for someone far away, I take the parts right out of the blaster and seal them in plastic Zip-locs for shipping. The person on the recieving end then can drop them in the pot right from the bags. It is a simple finish and fairly easy to do.

June 21, 2005, 10:05 PM	#12
Shorts Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,484	Ok guys, my project just changed, now I WILL NEED to refinish the frame once it is up and running. I found an Officer's lower half that will be used instead of a new Commander frame. The blue is pretty worn, and there is a spot of rust I will need to get out. I haven't received the frame yet, but hopefully it'll be arriving this week or next. So, I'm going to Save-a-Gun. I'm pretty excited about this new twist Oh, I just needed the thread to refresh my thoughts and I must save this to my user console.