Reloading Data

Oddjob911 · April 5, 2009, 01:48 PM

Hello, I am a newb to reloading and have a question about reloading data. Should I use the data from the bullet manufacturer or from the powder manufacturer? I bought a Hornady press, and purchased .223, 55g Hornady SP bullets. Several reloading friends suggested either Hodgdon H4198 or BLC2, so I bought H4198, since the sporting goods store was out of the BLC2. However this powder is not listed in the hornady manual, so I went to the hodgdon website and printed off their loading specs for 55g bullets. Also at the suggestion of friends, I purchased Remington 7 1/2 primers but the hornady manual recommends Winchester WSR. I was told that since I will be loading to minimum specs, any small rifle primer would start me off fine. These rounds will be for plinking no more than 200yds, in a couple different AR platforms. Should I just stick with the Hornady manual recommendations for now until I get my feet wet?

Any suggestions or criticisms would help out. Thanks

**Shane Tuttle** · April 5, 2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Should I use the data from the bullet manufacturer or from the powder manufacturer?

This subject is an ongoing debate with many. What I do is take both of their suggested loads and also take a third reference. Lyman's, Speer, etc. have reloading recipes in their books to help give you a starting point. What I normally do is take the average of the three on the lower end and go from there as long as it's about 10% below the average of max. Remember, ALL loading data is a GUIDE, not an absolute. Here's an example. This isn't for any particular cartridge:

Book 1 Book 2 Book 3
Min. 35.0gr 34.0 36

I choose 34gr as the average of the three. I do the same for the upper end. But be careful if you load to that point. Bump your loads up slowly.

Quote:

Also at the suggestion of friends, I purchased Remington 7 1/2 primers but the hornady manual recommends Winchester WSR. I was told that since I will be loading to minimum specs, any small rifle primer would start me off fine.

When switching primers, it's a good idea to start over by backing down 10% from max. Essentially, your friend is correct.

One key item to address: You stated that you're loading for two different rifles? There's two avenues that I'd suggest.

1. Full length size ALL of your brass. If you neck size only after fireforming, one case may not necessarily fit the other rifle. This can lead to some headaches.

2. After fireforming your brass, keep the brass fired from the same rifle separate from the other. Then you can neck size only and your brass will last much longer.

If you have feeding problems by neck sizing your brass, you may have to full length size your brass. It's all going to depend on the loads you work up and the characteristics of the rifle.

ems-1 · April 5, 2009, 03:30 PM

All reloading data no matter where it comes from is just a guide. Which ever data you chose to follow always start 10 % below and work it up from there. Experiment with different powders, primers, and bullets to see what combination works best in your firearm. All firearms are slightly different and what works best in your firearm may not work so good in mine even though they maybe the same firearm. That's part of the fun of reloading.

Above all, always observe all safety rules and follow the directions closely!

Huskerguy · April 5, 2009, 03:49 PM

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat. I am starting to reload some 223 as well. I have started a spread sheet of data obtained from both the powder manufacturer and the bullet manufacturer's web sites. They are pretty consistent so far.

someone suggested keeping brass for each gun separated which must be good advice because everyone tells me the same thing even though I have already done that. It only makes sense that brass from my bolt would be formed to that tight chamber better than the brass in my mini. One issue I did not consider is several people told me that brass spit out of a semi really does weird things since it is not in the chamber while it is hot. It is shot, heated up and ejected allowing the brass to undergo all sorts of expansion and contraction. Not sure how big of a deal that is but several people said the exact same thing to me.

The other question is whether to go with FL or SB dies. Did you get advice on that? It looks like I need FL for my bolt brass and SB for my mini loads.

I have asked and looked at powder and happened across an 8 lb bottle of Varget for 173 bucks this weekend and it was one of the top ones I had been considering for 223 and 06 both. Data is readily available and I like the fact it meters well, is clean and it doesn't take much. Titegroup for pistol and I am all set.

Best of luck and keep me informed - sounds like we will be learning together!

Tuzo · April 5, 2009, 04:39 PM

Brass, when fired, usually does not undergo any "weird things" - it simply expands due to heat, fire forms to whatever chamber it is in, and contracts almost immediately. Brass can be full-length sized regardless of the firearm. Neck sizing is possible with bolt actions and, since less stress is placed on the brass, allows more reloads than full-length sized brass. But only use brass that was fire formed in that individual chamber. It also increases accuracy because the reloaded cartridge fits the chamber with less play than a full-length sized cartridge. Small base sizing places strains brass more than full-length sizing and is usually reserved for machine guns and for overly tight chambers in semi-autos. In a blind comparison my groups were considerably tighter with neck sized brass. As an aside, my friend could not chamber my neck sized .30-06 rounds in two of his .30-06 rifles.

IMR4895, Varget, and Benchmark are used in reloading my various rifle calibers. IMR4895 was developed for the gas operated Garand and I use it for my Mini-14 rounds. Some of my most accurate shooting has been with Varget.

I use RCBS full length and neck sizing dies but have recently purchased a neck sizing Lee collet die for my .223 bolt action. Many shooters have claimed better accuracy and longer brass life due to the Lee collet die. I'll give it a go.

Oddjob911 · April 5, 2009, 06:09 PM

Thanks for the replies. I think I am going to start with the supplies that I already have, load minimum, and start from there.

Huskerguy--Along with what my reloading friends suggested as well as what Tuttle 8 suggests, I am going with FL dies. None of my brass is new and has been previously fired and from various sources.

I am going to try different powders, since the more and more I read, there seems to be alot of little nuances with different powders like slower burning, or how much space is taken up in the case. (Alot of stuff to learn) I think I will load about fifty to a hundred rounds each to see how each works.

I think am going to try Redding and RCBS dies. My reloading friends are split. About half use RCBS and the other use Redding. I am no bench rest shooter, so I think RCBS will be up my alley, (less expensive). Am eventually wanting to reload .30-06, .308, .40, and .45ACP. But for now .223 is where I get my feet wet.

Huskerguy · April 5, 2009, 07:36 PM

Hey Tuzo - thanks for the information. What you are saying about the brass is what everyone is telling me and it makes sense except for not knowing where the hot brass is actually going to land and what will happen to it. Help me out here with your information:

I only need to neck size the brass that was originally shot in my bolt?
Who makes a neck only die? So I take it I need to decap and it sizes the neck only and then I need a bullet seater?

I will need a FL die for the other brass I have - new and once shot in various semi autos and that should be OK?

I currently have all Hornady stuff but have looked at RCBS dies and have heard good things about them. If I don't have to buy SB dies I won't. I just want to make sure it feeds in my mini and my brothers in laws' AR's.

Thanks for the help and BTW, what loads are you using on the Varget?

**Shane Tuttle** · April 5, 2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

I am going to try different powders, since the more and more I read, there seems to be alot of little nuances with different powders like slower burning, or how much space is taken up in the case. (Alot of stuff to learn) I think I will load about fifty to a hundred rounds each to see how each works.

Welcome to the art of reloading.

Don't be overwhelmed. I'd keep with one type of bullet with one type of powder for now. Take notes on EVERYTHING you do. Once you have the tightest group you can get, then move on to either different bullets or powder. If you keep your variables to a minimum while you get the hang of reloading, you'll have more fun and less frustration.

Tuzo · April 5, 2009, 10:05 PM

A common rifle die set comes with either a full-length sizing or a neck sizing die with a decapping pin plus a seater die. Most die manufacturers offer various types of sizing dies. It is recommended that all newly acquired brass be full-length sized prior to reloading and subsequently neck sizing after fire forming in an individual bolt action rifle. Many experienced reloaders will full-length resize after a certain number of reloads or if the neck sized cartridge becomes difficult to chamber. Ultimately the choice is yours. Neck sizing allows more reloads per case because the metal endures less strain.

Full-length size for all semi-autos and lever actions is recommended. Nothing wrong with Hornady but RCBS has an unbeatable lifetime warranty for their equipment that applies to any owner.

I should not and will not recommend any specific reloading combinations. However, I can suggest that you consult a reloading manual such as Lyman, Hornady, or Sierra. These publications have a great deal of information about the reloading process in addition to safe bullet and powder combinations based on shooting under controlled conditions.

Anecdotal Warning: My brother reloaded .30-06 for use in a beautiful FN and partially blew apart the stock behind the receiver group. He did not consult any reloading manual and subsequently loaded some off-the-scale rounds. We removed walnut splinters from his face for a few days. At least he wore eyeglasses so there was no need to remove splinters from his eyeballs. Moral: research and learn as much as you can before you shoot your first reloaded cartridge. Welcome to reloading.

longranger · April 5, 2009, 11:36 PM

Buy the Redding "deluxe" die set, it come with a F/L die and a N/S die as well as the bullet seat die.It'll save you a few dimes.

James R. Burke · April 10, 2009, 11:52 AM

I try to have both manuals, but most of the time go by the maker of the bullets manual. I try to use a mag or reg primer for what the manual calls for. But as far as make goes I use all CCI, and start at the min, and work the load up. The different makes of primers are all really good from what I hear. I started with the CCI-APS Primer stips, and just stuck with them. Never had a fail to fire or any problems with them. For rifle I use all Lapua now, and again I start from the min, and work up. There is alot of great differnt made brass out there, at much better prices that will work just as good. I just got lazy on the prep work. Have fun, and keep it safe!

April 5, 2009, 01:48 PM	#1
Oddjob911 Junior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Location: NE Iowa Posts: 3	Reloading Data Hello, I am a newb to reloading and have a question about reloading data. Should I use the data from the bullet manufacturer or from the powder manufacturer? I bought a Hornady press, and purchased .223, 55g Hornady SP bullets. Several reloading friends suggested either Hodgdon H4198 or BLC2, so I bought H4198, since the sporting goods store was out of the BLC2. However this powder is not listed in the hornady manual, so I went to the hodgdon website and printed off their loading specs for 55g bullets. Also at the suggestion of friends, I purchased Remington 7 1/2 primers but the hornady manual recommends Winchester WSR. I was told that since I will be loading to minimum specs, any small rifle primer would start me off fine. These rounds will be for plinking no more than 200yds, in a couple different AR platforms. Should I just stick with the Hornady manual recommendations for now until I get my feet wet? Any suggestions or criticisms would help out. Thanks

April 5, 2009, 10:05 PM	#9
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	Reply to Husker A common rifle die set comes with either a full-length sizing or a neck sizing die with a decapping pin plus a seater die. Most die manufacturers offer various types of sizing dies. It is recommended that all newly acquired brass be full-length sized prior to reloading and subsequently neck sizing after fire forming in an individual bolt action rifle. Many experienced reloaders will full-length resize after a certain number of reloads or if the neck sized cartridge becomes difficult to chamber. Ultimately the choice is yours. Neck sizing allows more reloads per case because the metal endures less strain. Full-length size for all semi-autos and lever actions is recommended. Nothing wrong with Hornady but RCBS has an unbeatable lifetime warranty for their equipment that applies to any owner. I should not and will not recommend any specific reloading combinations. However, I can suggest that you consult a reloading manual such as Lyman, Hornady, or Sierra. These publications have a great deal of information about the reloading process in addition to safe bullet and powder combinations based on shooting under controlled conditions. Anecdotal Warning: My brother reloaded .30-06 for use in a beautiful FN and partially blew apart the stock behind the receiver group. He did not consult any reloading manual and subsequently loaded some off-the-scale rounds. We removed walnut splinters from his face for a few days. At least he wore eyeglasses so there was no need to remove splinters from his eyeballs. Moral: research and learn as much as you can before you shoot your first reloaded cartridge. Welcome to reloading.

April 5, 2009, 03:30 PM	#3
ems-1 Member Join Date: July 22, 2008 Location: S.C. Posts: 47	All reloading data no matter where it comes from is just a guide. Which ever data you chose to follow always start 10 % below and work it up from there. Experiment with different powders, primers, and bullets to see what combination works best in your firearm. All firearms are slightly different and what works best in your firearm may not work so good in mine even though they maybe the same firearm. That's part of the fun of reloading. Above all, always observe all safety rules and follow the directions closely!

April 5, 2009, 03:49 PM	#4
Huskerguy Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 348	Sounds like you and I are in the same boat. I am starting to reload some 223 as well. I have started a spread sheet of data obtained from both the powder manufacturer and the bullet manufacturer's web sites. They are pretty consistent so far. someone suggested keeping brass for each gun separated which must be good advice because everyone tells me the same thing even though I have already done that. It only makes sense that brass from my bolt would be formed to that tight chamber better than the brass in my mini. One issue I did not consider is several people told me that brass spit out of a semi really does weird things since it is not in the chamber while it is hot. It is shot, heated up and ejected allowing the brass to undergo all sorts of expansion and contraction. Not sure how big of a deal that is but several people said the exact same thing to me. The other question is whether to go with FL or SB dies. Did you get advice on that? It looks like I need FL for my bolt brass and SB for my mini loads. I have asked and looked at powder and happened across an 8 lb bottle of Varget for 173 bucks this weekend and it was one of the top ones I had been considering for 223 and 06 both. Data is readily available and I like the fact it meters well, is clean and it doesn't take much. Titegroup for pistol and I am all set. Best of luck and keep me informed - sounds like we will be learning together!

April 5, 2009, 04:39 PM	#5
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	Brass, when fired, usually does not undergo any "weird things" - it simply expands due to heat, fire forms to whatever chamber it is in, and contracts almost immediately. Brass can be full-length sized regardless of the firearm. Neck sizing is possible with bolt actions and, since less stress is placed on the brass, allows more reloads than full-length sized brass. But only use brass that was fire formed in that individual chamber. It also increases accuracy because the reloaded cartridge fits the chamber with less play than a full-length sized cartridge. Small base sizing places strains brass more than full-length sizing and is usually reserved for machine guns and for overly tight chambers in semi-autos. In a blind comparison my groups were considerably tighter with neck sized brass. As an aside, my friend could not chamber my neck sized .30-06 rounds in two of his .30-06 rifles. IMR4895, Varget, and Benchmark are used in reloading my various rifle calibers. IMR4895 was developed for the gas operated Garand and I use it for my Mini-14 rounds. Some of my most accurate shooting has been with Varget. I use RCBS full length and neck sizing dies but have recently purchased a neck sizing Lee collet die for my .223 bolt action. Many shooters have claimed better accuracy and longer brass life due to the Lee collet die. I'll give it a go.

April 5, 2009, 06:09 PM	#6
Oddjob911 Junior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Location: NE Iowa Posts: 3	Thanks for the replies. I think I am going to start with the supplies that I already have, load minimum, and start from there. Huskerguy--Along with what my reloading friends suggested as well as what Tuttle 8 suggests, I am going with FL dies. None of my brass is new and has been previously fired and from various sources. I am going to try different powders, since the more and more I read, there seems to be alot of little nuances with different powders like slower burning, or how much space is taken up in the case. (Alot of stuff to learn) I think I will load about fifty to a hundred rounds each to see how each works. I think am going to try Redding and RCBS dies. My reloading friends are split. About half use RCBS and the other use Redding. I am no bench rest shooter, so I think RCBS will be up my alley, (less expensive). Am eventually wanting to reload .30-06, .308, .40, and .45ACP. But for now .223 is where I get my feet wet.

April 5, 2009, 07:36 PM	#7
Huskerguy Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 348	Hey Tuzo - thanks for the information. What you are saying about the brass is what everyone is telling me and it makes sense except for not knowing where the hot brass is actually going to land and what will happen to it. Help me out here with your information: I only need to neck size the brass that was originally shot in my bolt? Who makes a neck only die? So I take it I need to decap and it sizes the neck only and then I need a bullet seater? I will need a FL die for the other brass I have - new and once shot in various semi autos and that should be OK? I currently have all Hornady stuff but have looked at RCBS dies and have heard good things about them. If I don't have to buy SB dies I won't. I just want to make sure it feeds in my mini and my brothers in laws' AR's. Thanks for the help and BTW, what loads are you using on the Varget?

April 5, 2009, 11:36 PM	#10
longranger Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2008 Location: Buffalo WY Posts: 1,056	Buy the Redding "deluxe" die set, it come with a F/L die and a N/S die as well as the bullet seat die.It'll save you a few dimes.

April 10, 2009, 11:52 AM	#11
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I try to have both manuals, but most of the time go by the maker of the bullets manual. I try to use a mag or reg primer for what the manual calls for. But as far as make goes I use all CCI, and start at the min, and work the load up. The different makes of primers are all really good from what I hear. I started with the CCI-APS Primer stips, and just stuck with them. Never had a fail to fire or any problems with them. For rifle I use all Lapua now, and again I start from the min, and work up. There is alot of great differnt made brass out there, at much better prices that will work just as good. I just got lazy on the prep work. Have fun, and keep it safe!