HEAD SHOTS vs CENTER MASS

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would disagree, no study or expert will proclaim that the 45 is a guaranteed stop.

[USAF_Vet]

My training taught me three rounds center mass and move on to the next target. Served me well in Iraq. Had I tried for a head shot in that engagement, I'd have either been blasted by an arsehole with an RPG (who died from 3 rnds, COM) or by his buddy with the AK (who shared the same fate).

That was with an M4 at a range of about 80 feet.

My CCW is a S&W Sigma .40, and in most scenarios I may encounter, center mass will be effective enough.

However, at home its the 12 gauge, and again, aiming center mass.

[Hoskins]

USAF VET...agreed...to a point. There are times that the headshot is the only shot that can be taken. Case in point, in the fall offensive of Fallujah, Iraq back in 2004, there were many headshots taken on insurgents just for the simple fact that alot of the times the head was the only target they would present.

Again though, I agree that the center mass shot is the main shot that should be taken. It gives you a much larger target area, which is helpful when firing at a moving target & when your fine motor skills start to become effected by adrenaline, increased heart rate, low visibility, explosions near by, etc...

[USAF_Vet]

Hoskins, I agree that sometimes a headshot is the only target that presents itself. Targets under cover are tricky, and you have to hit whatever you can. Still, as much as it pains me, if some jerk off was hiding behind my recliner, I'm putting as many rounds through my favorite chair into center mass rather than try to pick off a headshot when he peeks around to take a shot. I can always get a new chair

[TylerD45ACP]

I honestly don't think a nice 9mm HP(Speer Gold Dot 115gr.) and a nice 45ACP HP (Speer Gold Dot 230gr.) will be that big of a difference. I think the 45ACP is a better stopper and it creates a larger wound channel. It is not a better stopper by a high margin however. A 9mm and 45 IMHO, will produce similar effects to the human body. I rather have a 45ACP any day because I shoot it best. However, the 9mm is a proven round and gets a bad rep since the 1986 Miami FBI shootout. Of course its the 9mm's fault for not stopping the guy instantly. The 9mm is more than adequate for SD.

[Hoskins]

USAF VET....100% agreed!!!! If the tgt is hiding behind, for lack of better words, a "soft target", I have no problem in firing through it & eating it up.

My refrence to the targets only presenting headshots in Fallujah were hiding behind mud/brick...well you know the structures over there...5.56 will not penetrate through most of that stuff. Behind a chair or couch...then the so called cover will be shot through w/o hesitation.

To put things into prospective. I had to conduct a range study on new ways to perform Escalation of Force for convoy operations. Basically what I mean is how to signal, warn, & keep civilian vehicles away from our convoys while on the Iraqi roadways.

I tested "less-lethal" rounds for warning. Tested bird shot, buckshot, slugs, etc... To make a long story short, I shot a 12 ga slug thru the windshield of an old vehicle we were using for the test. The slug went thru the windshield, through the driverside head rest, through the back seat, through the trunk & out the back. It made a complete pass from front to rear. This shows that sometimes what seems to be solid cver isn't what it seems & that a decent round will rip thru alot of items used for cover.

[USAF_Vet]

I typically take 30 lb cinder blocks out to the range when I demonstrate the difference between various firearms. .22 long rifle, puts a dime sized pit, 5.56 NATO punches a hole clean through. 7.62x54R Mosin-Nagant blows the cinder block to dust. So again, if I'm packing my MN M44, and the bad guy is taking cover behind a brick wall, I may still take my chances in punching through the wall rather than making a clean headshot. There are too many factors to consider in head shot v. center mass to make a consistent clear cut answer.

[ClydeFrog]

Not to nitpick here but to me this topic should be based on real protection related events like a home owner or citizen with a CWP or concealed license.

Military troops and active duty soldiers are under way different conditions than a concealed license holder or property owner in CONUS(USA) that is not a service member. Even a sworn LE officer or reserve/retired LEO is held to a different standard based on dept policy, training standards, weapons, etc.

A soldier or Marine in combat could use headshots and have valid reasons but a citizen with a permit/concealment license would need to use the LEAST amount of force & caution to stop a violent threat. Bar talk or macho BS may sound tough but in the real world, citizens need to explain or be able to meet the requirements of the local/state/federal laws, re; deadly force & guns.
Even in 2010, our US troops must face ROEs(rules of engagement) and UCMJ laws(Uniform Code of Military Justice). I've talked to many US military veterans(OEF-OIF) who know firsthand how complex the offical SOPs can make combat operations.

[USAF_Vet]

Clyde, you make a good point. Those with military training plus combat experience will act in an entirely different manner than will someone without the training or experience. I was Air Force, and because of that I got different training than some of the soldiers I served with. For your typical infantryman, knowing the ins and outs of combat becomes second nature, but for a mechanic like myself, someone who never should have seen combat, not so much. In the end, only a handful of people would have been able to tell the difference between the way I (re)acted in a combat situation and the soldiers I was with on the convoys, but believe me, there was a difference.

The military and law enforcement officers train with their weapons, train for combat, even if it is only an annual qualification and a crash course in weapons and tactics. Military and LEOs get drilled constantly with Rules of Engagement, Codes of conduct, etc. The average citizen with a CCW in a self defense or home defense situation probably knows some of the local laws concerning self defense (they would have to if they have a CCW license), but in a high stress situation, I doubt the majority could recite or even understand those laws. SOPs can and do make combat difficult. I had to face an inquiry because I fired first. My reason, they triggered an IED, killing one soldier and maiming another, and then acted with the threat to do further harm, so in my eyes, they started it. Fortunately, my superiors agreed. Anyway, the average citizen doesn't have rules of engagement, so if they happen to shoot an intruder in the face to ensure their safety or the safety of others, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I know Michigan would pat you on the back and say thankya, other states, not so much.

I think in New Jersey, where my mom lives, if someone breaks into your house, you are legally obligated to give them all your valuables, cook them dinner, offer up your wife and/ or daughter (if she is of age), give them your car keys and promise not to call the cops for at least 15 minutes after they leave. God forbid you actually shoot the sonsabitches. Sure, the burglar might do 2-5 years, but you're in the cell next to 'em for 15-life.


Ultimately, the responsibility to know the law lies with the gun owner. Some states have some very strict laws concerning lethal force and self defense. Thankfully i live in a state where that isn't a big problem. But then again, thankfully I've never had to be in a situation like that. In Iraq, it's expected and you're prepared for it, in the small town where I live, not so much. Had I never served in Iraq, I probably wouldn't be as concerned about home defense as I am. Call me paranoid.

[Hoskins]

Clyde...I know where you are coming from & I agree. The point that I am trying to make is that center mass shots are the shots that should be practiced & should be taken the "majority" of the time.

My refrences to headshots were simply to make the point that center mass shots are not always...100% the feasible to take.

My points were not to make me sound like Hoskins the WarGod or anything, just using previous expirences to get my point accross. Additionally, armed civilians are very restricted & must be careful when they use deadly force. Escalation of Force must be applied, minimum force used, being in fear of your life, etc... Even if all that is met, the Good Guy still has to hope & pray that he/she will not be found guilty of murder.

In refrence to the ROEs & UCMJ...You are 100% correct, we are very restricted now days in Afghanistan, however, we still have the right to self defense & the defense of others. It is sad though just how restrictive some of our ROEs are though. I will not go into details of the ROE restrictions for obvious reasons though on a public forum.

[TylerD45ACP]

I understood your point, Hoskins, and think its a valid one. People can be behind cover and don't present the COM. So in turn whatever they are presenting becomes the COM.

[ClydeFrog]

Thanks for the forum input.
To be clear, I'm not saying that headshots or "rescue shots" are not a practical or tactical method under some limited conditions. They could be required in a CQB or a armed felon behind cover.
I just would not want a new gun owner or entry level tactics student to think headshots are the "best" target all the time in critical incidents.

As highly respected firearms/tactics instructor Duane Dieter, who works with elite units like the Navy SEALs, DEA, USMS-SOG(spec ops), DSS(US State Dept), etc. Dieter's methods are based on restraint and teaching operators/agents to use as little force as required. Many combat spec ops troops and sworn LE agents have praised Duane Dieter's classes and have used them "down range" with much success.

Clyde F

[Hoskins]

Right on Clyde...+1

[JIMSPD9]

Double tap to center mass and a follow up if you need it. You must stop the threat.

A old FBI agent explained this to our Police academy class 40 years ago.

Most people do not understand the dynamics of shooting a human threat. You must cause enough internal trauma to the target to lower his blood pressure causing him to faint thus stopping the threat. The dying comes later depending on how much damage was ultimately done.

JIM S

[TylerD45ACP]

Exactly. A headshot may produce an instant stop but the person could be alive for hours in a hospital. The human body is one tough rugged machine. If I ever have to fight a BG I will realize there is a very good possiblity my 45 could (fail to stop) not have the desired effects. Even with subsequent rounds the threat may just not stop, there is no way to predict any outcome. I am aiming COM and trying a headshot followup if it fails to stop. I will execute that to the best of my ability taking into account different variables. Hopefully, my forethought and training will help save my life.

[Hoskins]

Tyler...if you become a Ranger, you will have some of the best training in the world! They will give you the tools & ability needed. The Failure drills will become second nature.

[TylerD45ACP]

That true Hoskins and I hope to be in soon. I want to finish my associates degree because I know Rangers like people with some college. After that which should be 1yr ( I have already talked to recruiters and started training) I will hopefully be in the military. I cant think of anything else Id rather be a part of more.

[ClydeFrog]

I agree with part of the last few points, but take issue with some of the reasons.
To aim for the "T" zone or the small area from across the eyes down to the upper lip may(and I mean MAY) cause a rapid response from subject since your fired round could shut down the central nervous system.
I watched a cable TV show where a young USMC sniper who served in southwest Asia explained how rifle size calibers were able to stop enemy threats from ranges of 100-900 meters.
Smaller handgun rounds can work in close ranges(under 20ft or so) but that is where training & marksmanship factor into it. FAMs(federal air marshals) are a great example of this point. FAMs must drill a terrorist or subject quickly but avoid any passengers or crew members near or behind the threat.

In closing, I'd add that in a real critical event, I highly doubt a violent subject would "faint" or "pass out" even if you shot them. Many armed felons & violent criminals sworn LE officers face are high on drugs or intoxicated. These threats could also have increased adrenline levels. They will keep fighting or being hyper aggressive until you fully stop them.

[USAF_Vet]

Clyde, if enough damage is done, due to internal bleeding blood pressure drops. When that happens, the heart races to keep blood moving and thus circulate oxygen to the brain. Fainting or passing out doesn't have anything to do with how tough you are, and everything to do with the physiology of the human body. If there simply isn't enough oxygen to support brain function, the body will automatically shut down and go into defense mode to preserve life. Drugs and alcohol intoxication and high adrenaline levels will only make a gun shot victim bleed out more quickly.
And there are plenty of mean nasty aggressive violent bad guys who do faint with pain. Stories of violent and drugged out perps are often vastly exaggerated. Just like the stories of the guy who was shot twenty times and walked out of the hospital a week later, he may have sustained 20 different injuries, not all from bullets, or may have been shot AT 20 times. Media perception is often a foggy version of the truth.

[ClydeFrog]

That is true.

About 5 years ago I worked on an armed security detail with a former small town cop who told our shift officers about a incident his PD had. A couple who had a few bad domestic disputes and calls for service had several police officers go to their home on a 911 call. The male subject, who the local PD officers had many fights & problems with was about 6'06" & 350lbs. They didn't have any more problems with the guy because his girlfriend shot and killed him with 1/one .22short round to the center of his upper chest.
The former LE officer said the man died on the scene and there was little blood or trauma from the gunshot wound.

[LordTio3]

First of all, I'd like to recognize that there is a lot of distinguished service and experience talking in this room and I enjoy seeing that very much. Thank you all for your service and your generosity. It is deeply appreciated.

Secondly, according to the perameters of this thread (HEAD SHOTS VS CENTER MASS), One individual had the absolute perfect statement to all of the inevitable "What if" scenarios; it was Tyler's clarification...

I understood your point, Hoskins, and think its a valid one. People can be behind cover and don't present the COM. So in turn whatever they are presenting becomes the COM.

This statement identifies a misconception that most people seem to be operating from. When you shoot defensively, you do not shoot at the Center of the Mass of the Body. You shoot at the Center of the Mass of the Target; which is the Body most of the time. If you can only see someone's head, or their head is the only safe place to shoot at, then THAT is your target; and the best way to make a hit on that target is to shoot for the COM of that target. So put your front sight on the bridge of their nose.

Really this statement should kill the rest of the tangents on this thread as it can be applied to all of the "What if a head shot is the only shot" arguments. If a head shot is your only option, then their head is your target. Shoot for the center of the mass of your target. Otherwise, as in the vast majority of incindents, the entire person (specifically the vital organs) is your target. Shoot for the center of its mass.

~LT

[TylerD45ACP]

Exactly. Nice post Tio going into depth, that explains it quite well. COM is whatever is presented at the time by the target. Like Tio said usually, the Body. But, if all I can see are elbows then that becomes my COM.

[Hoskins]

+1 for LT & Tyler... you put it into words better than I did!

[ClydeFrog]

A direct center of mass hit is far better than a miss, .

As the old saying goes; speed's fine but accuracy's final.

[TylerD45ACP]

Still all three of us have the right idea I think, Hoskins .