Factory ammo keeps coming up less expensive

[Waldog]

Last time I checked(Last Week), 9mm Win White Box was $21.95 @ 100 at Walmart in San Diego. I can load 9mm, with 125gr lead RN for a little less that $10.00. (Wolf primers, Win 231/HP38, commercial cast lead bullets and "scrounged" range brass)

[Real Gun]

Originally Posted by Waldog

Last time I checked(Last Week), 9mm Win White Box was $21.95 @ 100 at Walmart in San Diego. I can load 9mm, with 125gr lead RN for a little less that $10.00. (Wolf primers, Win 231/HP38, commercial cast lead bullets and "scrounged" range brass)

I have gotten some experience with IDPA, but most of my shooting is indoors, where I am not allowed to use raw lead bullets. Soft bullets like lead and plated sometimes arrive pretty beat up from the trip. I use the cost of FMJ as a given, doing well so far with Zero and Armscor, but open to Montana Gold and Precision Delta in future purchases. I prefer this FMJ ammo and am not trying to win an award for the cheapest recipe.

[Lost Sheep]

I just ran the numbers on reloading costs and found something interesting:

Here are the parameters:

7 grains of powder per shot makes an easy calculation: 1000 shots per
pound. At $25 a pound, that is 2.5 cents per shot.

Primers at $4 per hundred, 4 cents per shot

Copperplated bullets at $75 per 500, 15 cents per shot

Brass at $15 per hundred and assuming 10 uses per case, 1.5 cents per shot

Labor (most reloaders ignore this component, but if you forego the potential of earning $15 per hour to reload, or pay someone 15 to mow your lawn $15 to save the hour you would spend doing it, this is a real cost). At 100 rounds per hour (I just got a turret press and can do a careful 100 per hour), 15 cents per shot.

Labor to prep the cases, tumble, clean, sort, etc. another 15 cents per shot.

Consumable components alone are $10.75 for a box of 50
Consumable components plus brass; $11.50 for a box of 50
Consumable components, brass and my labor; $26.50 for a box of 50

At that rate it's going to take me a long time to amortize the cost of my
new press.

Independence from the ammo manufacturers' processes, priceless. (Though
I am still at the mercy of the primer manufacturers, brass makers and bullet
casters, I find their mercies more palatable.)

Besides, paying $26.50 for a box of 50 45 ACP is a lot better bargain than my salmon. Last year my sport-caught salmon cost me $155 a pound. Whole fish, not fillets. But they were good eating. Both of them.

Lost Sheep

[Real Gun]

There would be some factoring in for labor in some cases, but I think reloaders generally have more time than money, so the cost is more like $10 a box, not $25. That is the actual out-of-pocket expense.

Another comment is that I thought the cost of brass was optimistic, because we don't get 100% of our brass back, certainly not 10 times. That also would vary a lot in the local shooting culture, because the ability to retrieve brass can be different from one match to another. A lot of my brass comes from shagging stuff non-reloaders don't want, becoming a virtual bag lady of the shooting ranges.

I think there will be times when I would buy once-fired stuff but rarely brand new brass.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by Real Gun

There would be some factoring in for labor in some cases, but I think reloaders generally have more time than money, so the cost is more like $10 a box, not $25. That is the actual out-of-pocket expense.

Another comment is that I thought the cost of brass was optimistic, because we don't get 100% of our brass back, certainly not 10 times. That also would vary a lot in the local shooting culture, because the ability to retrieve brass can be different from one match to another. A lot of my brass comes from shagging stuff non-reloaders don't want, becoming a virtual bag lady of the shooting ranges.

I think there will be times when I would buy once-fired stuff but rarely brand new brass.

Most reloaders don't figure in their labor costs, but I thought I would be thorough. If I was going to be REALLY anal about it, I would also figure in the tax effects (remember, you don't pay taxes on wages you pay yourself).

I don't think I have ever bought new brass, either. Most of the brass I use, I bought new as loaded ammunition. I don't shoot at ranges that won't allow me to retrieve my own brass, but if I did, all my semi-automatic shooting would be 22 rimfire and centerfire with revolvers. No way will I make a gift of brass to a range that has such arbitrary and restrictive rules as not retrieving my brass.

I don't load particularly hot, so 10 loads per case is actually conservative (for straight-walled cases - bottlenecked rounds are a different story, though).

Also, don't take the prices I quoted as gospel. They are what I recall from what were on the shelves at local stores and I am in Alaska, where shipping costs force everything up a little.

Lost Sheep

[CrustyFN]

Consumable components alone are $10.75 for a box of 50
Consumable components plus brass; $11.50 for a box of 50
Consumable components, brass and my labor; $26.50 for a box of 50

Lost sheep here is a real eye opener for you. Buy in bulk and you will save quite a bit more. Here is my example. I buy 50,000 primers at a time to max out a hazmat order. I also buy 48 pounds of powder at a time. I usually split that with two friends. I am loading with primers and powder that is almost two years old. The primers were $16 per 1,000 and the powder was around $12 per pound. I have 1,400 pounds of free wheel weights that I have picked up from a couple of local trie shops on my way home from work. I don't include labor because none of this takes time away from my work. With my free cast bullets I am loading 45 auto for my 1911 for $25 per 1,000 rounds.

[Davey]

Wow, thanks for all the input everyone.

After doing my math with the corrected powder numbers I saw the savings on 45. It's come to about about $16-$17 for a box of 50. A store bought box is about $25 + tax. That's definitely worth it to me to invest. Plus I could use a hobby to get me away from the video games.

[m&p45acp10+1]

More recent cost for reloading. I reload for four calibers.
1 .45 acp cost 1 pound of Bull's Eye is about $22 after tax at Cabella's 4.2 grains per shot it comse to about 1 cent per shot
1K CCI large pistol primers about $35 after tax so that is 3.5 cents per shot
by what I pay for the wheel weights for bullets and the solder I use to harden my alloy it comes to about one tenth of a cent.
Brass is free range pick up. I tumble it if it is awful cruddy. Most times I do not bother.
Price is around $55 per thousand (that is a rough cost, if you want to do the math it would not be much less, or more either way)
2. .41 Rem Mag Factory ammo cost around $1 a shot.
I use a few powders for this. I pour the lead. I did have to buy the brass. I have well over 30 firings out of the brass I still have (a few have split) Brass is roughly $25 per 100 for new unfired. Using my lead home cast price per 1K is less than $60
3. .221 Rem Fireball Factory ammo is roughly $1 per shot. (about the only thing they make for it is the premium varmint rounds)
Using Hornady Vmax $14 per 100
AA2015 powder $24 per pound (17.5 grains per round)
Brass is $45 per 100 (I have over 15 firings out of some without having to trim so far) I can also cut down .223 brass and reform it, that brass is free.
Primers $34 per 1K
Rough price is a quarter a round
4 9mm luger Price at Walmart for 115 grain FMJ range fodder is around $10 per 50 that figures to 20 cents per shot
Using range pick up brass. With plated bullets, and Titegroup powder.
Primers $35 per 1K 3.5 cents each
Bullets Berry's Plated 124 grain HP $23 per 250 Roughly 10 cents each. Loading 115 grain plated ball rounds subtract 3 cents per round.
Titegroup $20 per pound using 4.0 grains around 1 cent per shot roughly
Rougly that figures to about 15 cents a shot.
While I do not get dramatic savings with the 9mm it is a little bit less, if I were not shooting a stock G26 I would cast lead cutting that price dramaticly.

[TXGunNut]

Some folks don't figure equipment costs but a high-volume loader like Crusty isn't likely to be using a hand press, likely multiple progressives. Add the cost of casting and smelting equipment and we have a pretty significant outlay of capital. I know this stuff lasts forever but it still costs money and most of us add equipment from time to time. OTOH I suspect we can put Crusty's ammo up against anything you find on the shelf.
Rifle shooters who handload generally buy new brass in large lots and some, like me, only hunt with new brass. Equipment can be simpler as long as you don't buy all the benchrest goodies. Rifle bullets vary from homemade cast bullets from wheelweights to the premium stuff from Nosler, Barnes, et al. Rifles can use 5-10 times as much powder as pistols so the cost per shot for rifle ammo can be anywhere from 25 cents to well over a dollar. My rifle ammo, using new brass, is only a little less than premium commercial ammo but once I have a load figured out it will outperform anything you can buy.
Labor costs? This is entertainment, a bargain compared to some.
I think a high volume pistol shooter (10K +/year) can make a case for savings over commercial ammo but I suspect, all things considered, their true costs are higher than they think.
I got into handloading to facilitate a comp pistol shooting habit but now I generally buy any handgun ammo I need and focus on turning out precision ammo for my rifles and T/C pistols. I buy or cast the best bullets I can find so I'm not saving money and don't really care if I do.
There's more to reloading than saving money.

[Al Norris]

Why do some people continue to push the "cost of labor" when it comes to handloading?

If I figured in the cost of my fishing gear, including all the time (labor) I spend fishing, I would never fish. It costs way too much for the return.

The same thing goes for hunting. We have Elk farms here in Idaho. The cost per pound would be much cheaper, if I didn't hunt. Even less if I just bought Beef instead!

Camping for a week? Stay home and live for three weeks, on the cost of a weeks camping trip.

Take just about any recreational hobby, and it would be cheaper not to engage in the hobby! Drop the "cost of labor" thingy! It is a red herring, used to detract from the satisfaction one gains by engaging in a hobby that both stimulates and relaxes. That is the purpose of recreation, is it not?

[mumbles]...And people think I'm anal...[/mumbles]

[mapsjanhere]

Sorry, I guess I'm one of THOSE people that do factor in the labor. My free time is rather limited, and I'd rather go shooting than loading. Maybe, if my shooting ever gets good enough to require handloads, that will change, but for now I get more fun out of a $20 box of 223 I get to shoot than a $10 box of perfect reloads that have to wait another 2 weeks for my day off to hit the range.

[brickeyee]

.50-70 runs around $4.25 to 4.50 a shot.

Some of the large old express calibers hit $15-25 or more.

[CrustyFN]

Some folks don't figure equipment costs but a high-volume loader like Crusty isn't likely to be using a hand press, likely multiple progressives. Add the cost of casting and smelting equipment and we have a pretty significant outlay of capital.

TX I load on a Lee classic turret. With the press, good scale, four sets of dies and turrets, tumbler, media separator and caliper I'm into it for around $400. I made that up in a few months with the savings. I am into smelting and casting equipment for around $200. I made that up in savings after three casting sessions. You really don't need to spend a fortune to load and cast with good equipment.

There's more to reloading than saving money.

I couldn't agree more. I would still reload and cast if I didn't save a dime because I enjoy it. The savings is a bonus and a means for people to be able to shoot more than they would normally be able to afford.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by Al Norris

Why do some people continue to push the "cost of labor" when it comes to handloading?

I think I was the first in this thread to bring up the cost of labor, I feel compelled to point out that we are "buying" more than just ammunition when we reload. Satisfaction. Independence. Quality. Customization.

Did I mention that my $155 salmon were particularly delicious? Spiced as they were with memories, good company, wood smoke and a few mosquito carcasses.

Like Mapsjanhere, I sometimes buy commercially manufactured ammunition when I have not had the time to load some ready for the range. Sometimes I might even buy a packet of targets if I forgot to print my own.

How you figure costs is up to you and where you spend your hobby time, likewise. I spend some of my hobby time figuring out the costs of things. THAT's a strange hobby if I ever heard of one, but I figure that's just the accountant in me.

There are some things that cannot have price tags, but a good accountant can figure out their costs. It does not matter if the cost is irrelevant.

Lost Sheep

[Davey]

I would look into forging my own bullets as well if the soon to be fiance didn't already give me a resounding HELL NO.

Gonna have to work on that.

[TXGunNut]

Nice setup, Crusty. My mistake, thought I remembered seeing a second press in earlier pics. You're an inspiration to me, Crusty! I'm not near as good as you at finding bargains but I don't care. Sometimes I'd rather spend my time loading or casting than cruising estate and garage sales but I'm going to try that soon. At first I didn't know what I was looking for or at but I'm figuring it out as I go.
Run away, Davey! Run away now!

[Hoosier70]

I reload when the weather doesn't want to cooperate with my plans. Store bought ammo cheaper yes. Doing it your self is priceless.

[TXGunNut]

Dunno, Al. It's a manufacturing process and labor cost is usually considered part of the cost of the product. Equipment should be depreciated and those costs added in as well but figuring out the useful life would be a headache since we all load differing amounts using different equipment. I can see their point but I just don't see it that way.
I see it as cheap entertainment and try to keep costs down by buying bulk components and good equipment. I see it as the only way I'll ever have the best ammo I can have for my rifles. I shudder at the costs of .45-90 BP ammo or even decent 45-70 ammo, especially if my rifle decides it doesn't like it. It's a necessary part of shooting as I know it, I'm glad I enjoy it.

[A_Gamehog]

To the "Bean counters" who answered your post.

It would seem you missed the boat here. I was making and shooting all the ammo at squirrels, P-dogs and Coyotes I wanted to during this last shortage of reloading componets. My friends who "count beans" and said it was too expensive were driving to the local marts or trolled the web looking for factory ammo that was never there. They stayed home or begged me for loads. At one point in time you could not even buy 22LR ammo at any price!

With some money well spent and a good stock of componets you control your hunting destiny not the whims of the government, THAT to me is Priceless.

[noylj]

The attached file show my estimated costs using nothing but top quality components and the most inexpensive ammunition I could easily find.
Here is the messed up version for those without Excel:
Why Reload?

.38 Special 148gn Wadcutter
S&B 148gn L-HBWC $360/1000 36¢/round
Remington virgin brass $302.99/2000 15¢/case
Remington 148gn L-HBWC $114.99/2000 6¢/bullet
Remington 1 1/2 small pistol primer $30.49/1000 3¢/primer
Winchester 231 powder (2.9gn powder) $131.99/8lb 0.71¢/round
Total per virgin round reloaded 24.7¢/round
Total with used brass 10¢/round

9mm Luger 115gn JHP
American Eagle 115gn JHP $289/1000 29¢/round
Brown Bear (steel case) 115gn JHP $94.95/500 19¢/round
Starline virgin brass 129.99/1000 13¢/case
Remington 115gn JHP $191.99/2000 10¢/bullet
Remington 1 1/2 small pistol primer $30.49/1000 3¢/primer
Winchester 231 powder (5.0gn powder) 131.99/8lb 1.2¢/round
Total per virgin round reloaded 27.2¢/round
Total with used brass 14.2¢/round

.45ACP 185gn JHP
Remington 185gn JHP $49.95/50 $1.00/round
Wolf Gold 185gn JHP $26.95/50 54¢/round
Starline virgin brass $159.99/1000 16¢/case
Remington 185gn JHP $366.99/2000 18.4¢/bullet
Remington 2 1/2 large pistol primer $30.49/1000 3¢/primer
Winchester 231 powder (5.5gn powder) 131.99/8lb 1.3¢/round
Total per virgin round reloaded 38.7¢/round
Total with used brass 22.7¢/round

[Waldog]

This makes life a little easier. Check out this on line calculator:

http://10xshooters.com/calculators/H...Calculator.htm

It will also figure in your reloading equipment costs to figure out a "break even" point. The website has calculators for Shotgun, Rifle and Handgun

[Uncle Buck]

I put my primers in while watching TV. I have a RCBS hand primer and I can take my brass in to the living room, watch TV and prime 1000 cases. (I have been loading enough that I can feel if something is wrong.)

I enjoy sitting on my back deck drinking coffee and watching the critters, but if I have to work the shells(deprime and size), I can give up the back deck and do it from my reloading bench.

I don't pay myself, so I can not figure labor costs into what I do. (I guess I could figure what I would have to pay someone else into the equation, but what is the going rate of having someone drink coffee and watching critters or TV?)

When my brass needs cleaning, I put it in the tumbler and leave, or go to bed.

When I shoot the shells I have reloaded, I have no way to figure the cost of that entertainment.

I reload when the weather is too bad for me to be doing other things or at night. It is a way for me to relax. I can not figure out how, or how much, to pay someone else to relax for me.

So cost of labor is a non-factor for me. The only thing I can compare it with is the cost of factory ammunition.

I originally began to reload because I could not afford, nor find, factory ammo.

It has become a hobby that I enjoy and when I have a few extra dollars in my pocket, I pick up extra supplies.

(A friend of mine left some rifles in one of my storage safes and he did not grease them before he left. When he came back there was rust on the guns. He was really disappointed in himself for not storing them properly. I told him to leave them with me and I would clean them up and make them look good again. He knows I would not take any money for cleaning them, so now, every time he comes by the house, he drops off 1 - 2 K primers )

[temmi]

As you progress you will find it not just the cost but the variety and quality (not to mention the fun) you get from hand loading

[BigJimP]

Like others said / issue of labor is more about - do you want to reload / make it part of the hobby. At the same time / a good progressive press like a Dillon 650 will easily turn out 20 boxes of 50 rds in an hour / so time isn't really a factor for me personally...

But in terms of cost:
a. I don't buy brass / I pick lots of it up off range floor...

b. cost of bullets drives the cost. But if you buy in bulk, I pay $ 65.30 per 1,000 for 9mm plated, 124gr RN / and $ 104.60 per 1,000 230gr RN .45 acp plated ...( not jacketed /but good enough for range work) .... so bullets are about $ 0.065 per round in 9mm / and about $ 0.10 per round in .45 acp..

c. powder is around $ 140 for an 8 lb keg ...and using 4.3 - 4.6 gr depending on the load means a little over $ 0.01 per round

so 9mm reloads are $ 5.25 per box of 50
.45 acp reloads are $ 7.25 per box of 50

if you buy in volume ...

[GeauxTide]

With large pistol cartridges and my 2.5" Mag rifle, I'm saving about 60%. In .338-06, even more.