Cases stuck in chamber - Page 2

Captain Hook · April 14, 2010, 07:14 PM

Case lengths S&B =2.497 @ 12.44g vol = 4.57
REM =2.495 @ 12.85g vol = 4.43

greco · April 14, 2010, 07:19 PM

I had the same problems recently with 7.62 nato cases. Cratered primers, hard bolt lift and extraction. I dropped from 42.5 grains of powder to 38, and it fixed the problem. Instead of dropping .5 grains, how about 10%, and working your way back up?? My $.02

Jim243 · April 14, 2010, 07:32 PM

Case length is within spec so it's not the trim (2.494) Interesting the Rem case is the smaller of the two. I like greco's idea it is also the safer one.

Captain Hook · April 14, 2010, 07:38 PM

I rechecked my powder drop with a electronic scale. Weights are still consistent at 47.0g I like the idea of trying lowered charges. If no change might there be a possibility of the brass being too soft?

steve4102 · April 14, 2010, 07:50 PM

Did you Chrony these loads?

Captain Hook · April 14, 2010, 07:51 PM

I don't have one.

Jim243 · April 14, 2010, 08:13 PM

Can not speak to the brass, but it would definitely be something with the powder and load, unless you were using mag primers in stead of LR primers.

What powder are you using and what weight bullet?

Jim

Captain Hook · April 14, 2010, 08:18 PM

Hodgdon H335, 47g, Noslor 150g ballistic tip

steve4102 · April 14, 2010, 08:27 PM

Just by chance did you weigh the bullets, are they as they should be?

Captain Hook · April 14, 2010, 08:35 PM

150.4g

Jim243 · April 14, 2010, 08:39 PM

Ok here is my guess. Some where along the way someone told you not to crimp your cases.

You loaded up four rounds in your rifle and on the forth cartrage this problem happened. If this is the case, your bullet was pushed into the case from the recoil and created a high pressure problem.

You are using the min load for that powder and bullet combination. You should not have a high pressure problem with that load. You also mentioned that a bullet will drop into the fired case.

May I suggest that you take out your Factory Crimp Die and crimp (heavy) those cases. While a lot will tell you it will affect your accuracy, it actually helps your accuracy by letting the powder fully burn.

Hope this helps.

Jim

mrawesome22 · April 14, 2010, 08:42 PM

Classic signs of an over pressure load. Drop the charge by a couple grains and see what happens. This is where a chronograph could really show it's usefulness.

Captain Hook · April 14, 2010, 08:51 PM

I like the theory about the crimps...But I only loaded the rifle 1 cart. at a time.
I'm going to load up some more tomorrow at a 10% reduction and test that. I will also reload the Rem. with the reduced load to compare. I can see how the crony would really help. Will post tomorrow.

Jim243 · April 14, 2010, 09:05 PM

If you loaded them 1 at a time then I would have a concern about your OAL and that it might be too long for the throat of your chamber. Do one case with a heavy crimp and see if your bolt will not close or if it is difficult to close. That would mean that the bullet is being pushed into the lands and groves. This could create a high pressure problem too.

Jim

**Unclenick** · April 14, 2010, 10:14 PM

CH,

The case you measured, was that after firing? At 2.497" it is already 0.003" over maximum for a resized case. Sizing will make it longer. That could be the problem. Normal trim length is 0.010" below maximum, so 2.484", and that trimming is done after sizing because the sizing die squirts the neck forward. An overlong neck will jam into the freebore, preventing the case from letting go of the bullet at normal pressure. A $10 Lee trimmer will fix it. There is no way that light load should be causing excess pressure.

steve4102 · April 15, 2010, 07:19 AM

Good call Nick, His case could be to long causing the high pressure. CH trim those cases and try again.

Captain Hook · April 15, 2010, 04:16 PM

OK so what I did was: Bought new win. primers,
Picked 3 cases #1 fired Rem, #2 fired S&B #3 unfired S&B, Full length sized and deprimed all 3, Trimmed all to 2.490, Primed cases, Charged with 45g of Hodgdon H335 (start load set at 47g), Seated Nosler 30/150 bt, ballistic tip bullets to 3.250" light crimp, (still no crony) Fired #1 (Rem)... primer looks good ejected a little hard.
Fired #2 (fired S&B)... primer flattened more than Rem. a little harder to eject, but not overly
Fired #3( unfired S&B)... primer also flatter than Rem. But ejected nicely. All 3 have powder residue around neck. Case#1 Len.= 2.490 Case #2 Len.= 2.498 Case#3 Len.= 2.500

mrawesome22 · April 15, 2010, 04:37 PM

Sounds and looks like you're doing better. Those cases have a normal amount of residue on the necks.

Is there any way I could talk you into buying some IMR4350 for that combo? H335 is ideally suited to very small cartridges with light bullets. I load 150's for my buddies -06, and 335 wasn't even considered when I started looking at data. I don't even know why they list it. They shouldn't.

Captain Hook · April 15, 2010, 04:52 PM

I actually bought the H335 for loading .223's I am certainly open to other powders.

palabman · April 15, 2010, 05:05 PM

As the previous poster said, I would go to IMR4350 or RL17

Jim243 · April 15, 2010, 08:26 PM

Good results, you trimmed fired cases before loading and the S & B cases still streached. Your soft brass theory may have some merit. Your 98 is beating the daylights out of those S & B rims on the cases.

On heavy bullets I get good results with H4895. But then I use H4895 for almost any caliber. I use H335 only on 50 grain bullets or less in 223.

Good Luck
Jim

brickeyee · April 15, 2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

I'm not resizing because its new brass

Even new brass needs a trip through the resizer for any out of round at the case mouth and manufacturing variation.

Check length after that on every case.

You only need a single over length case to turn a gun into shrapnel.

The NATO symbol is a circle with a plus sign inside.

Military ammunition uses different standards for pressure, and in some cases has thicker case walls to deal withthe pressure.
This reduces the interior volume of the case and raises pressure.

Loading these shells without accounting for the reduced capacity can cause excessive pressure (like the right hand case in your picture).

Since the outside dimensions of the cases are the same, thicker walled cases will weigh more.

You are messing around with 40,000 to 50,000+ PSI.
Mistakes can be anything from hard to open the bolt to death (rarely, but it happens).

**Unclenick** · April 15, 2010, 10:36 PM

Looks certain to me that the S&B is just too soft. Our military had problems with that in WWI. Manufacturers tried to get away with fewer forming operations to save on tooling and machine capacity, but if the brass isn't work-hardened by enough forming steps, it's a problem.

I think the issue is soft brass for two reasons. First is size: the bullet is loose in the S&B neck after firing, but not the Remington; the S&B's grow a lot more in firing. The second reason is the flattened primers. It looks like the brass contains them less well at firing. I expect it's because the shoulders are pushed back further, both when new and after resizing. That creates extra headspace that lets the primer back out into a bigger gap on firing, which lets its head mushroom a little. Winchester primer cups are on the soft side to begin with. I'd guess that this wouldn't happen with a CCI #34. The extra sticking in the chamber would happen, too, because of softness. Like the neck ID's it just doesn't spring back to shape as well as harder brass. That means the chamber can snap back over top of it and trap it after expanding from firing pressure.

zippy13 · April 16, 2010, 02:39 AM

Capt. H, thus far, everyone has been looking at the brass. Obviously there's classic signs of over-pressure. Perhaps it's the rifle. You mentioned it's a sporterized Mauser 98. We're all aware that many such rifles were re-barreled after WW2 -- some of the work being better than others, and a lot can happen in 65-years. May I suggest you have your 98's headspace gauged to eliminate or confirm its part in your problem.

Gunplummer · April 16, 2010, 04:46 AM

I used to load a lot of foreign brass. Norma is usually soft but S&B and Lapua are usually too hard. If the brass is too thick it will choke the bullet at the neck and bump up the pressure. A lot of guys turn the necks on military brass to avoid this. Also the neck where it meets the shoulder does not look right. I made a lot of reamers and the brass looks as if some one tried to redo the neck with a separate reamer. It might be an optical illusion with the photo, but that is the way it looks.

April 14, 2010, 07:19 PM	#27
greco Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 125	I had the same problems recently with 7.62 nato cases. Cratered primers, hard bolt lift and extraction. I dropped from 42.5 grains of powder to 38, and it fixed the problem. Instead of dropping .5 grains, how about 10%, and working your way back up?? My $.02 __________________ NRA Pistol, Shotgun, Rifle Instructor

April 14, 2010, 10:14 PM	#40
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	CH, The case you measured, was that after firing? At 2.497" it is already 0.003" over maximum for a resized case. Sizing will make it longer. That could be the problem. Normal trim length is 0.010" below maximum, so 2.484", and that trimming is done after sizing because the sizing die squirts the neck forward. An overlong neck will jam into the freebore, preventing the case from letting go of the bullet at normal pressure. A $10 Lee trimmer will fix it. There is no way that light load should be causing excess pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; April 15, 2010 at 09:21 AM.

April 15, 2010, 10:36 PM	#48
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Looks certain to me that the S&B is just too soft. Our military had problems with that in WWI. Manufacturers tried to get away with fewer forming operations to save on tooling and machine capacity, but if the brass isn't work-hardened by enough forming steps, it's a problem. I think the issue is soft brass for two reasons. First is size: the bullet is loose in the S&B neck after firing, but not the Remington; the S&B's grow a lot more in firing. The second reason is the flattened primers. It looks like the brass contains them less well at firing. I expect it's because the shoulders are pushed back further, both when new and after resizing. That creates extra headspace that lets the primer back out into a bigger gap on firing, which lets its head mushroom a little. Winchester primer cups are on the soft side to begin with. I'd guess that this wouldn't happen with a CCI #34. The extra sticking in the chamber would happen, too, because of softness. Like the neck ID's it just doesn't spring back to shape as well as harder brass. That means the chamber can snap back over top of it and trap it after expanding from firing pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 14, 2010, 07:14 PM	#26
Captain Hook Member Join Date: April 14, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 19	Case lengths S&B =2.497 @ 12.44g vol = 4.57 REM =2.495 @ 12.85g vol = 4.43

April 14, 2010, 07:32 PM	#28
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Case length is within spec so it's not the trim (2.494) Interesting the Rem case is the smaller of the two. I like greco's idea it is also the safer one.

April 14, 2010, 07:38 PM	#29
Captain Hook Member Join Date: April 14, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 19	I rechecked my powder drop with a electronic scale. Weights are still consistent at 47.0g I like the idea of trying lowered charges. If no change might there be a possibility of the brass being too soft?

April 14, 2010, 07:50 PM	#30
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Did you Chrony these loads?

April 14, 2010, 07:51 PM	#31
Captain Hook Member Join Date: April 14, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 19	I don't have one.

April 14, 2010, 08:13 PM	#32
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Can not speak to the brass, but it would definitely be something with the powder and load, unless you were using mag primers in stead of LR primers. What powder are you using and what weight bullet? Jim

April 14, 2010, 08:18 PM	#33
Captain Hook Member Join Date: April 14, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 19	Hodgdon H335, 47g, Noslor 150g ballistic tip

April 14, 2010, 08:27 PM	#34
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Just by chance did you weigh the bullets, are they as they should be? Last edited by steve4102; April 14, 2010 at 08:32 PM.

April 14, 2010, 08:35 PM	#35
Captain Hook Member Join Date: April 14, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 19	150.4g

April 14, 2010, 08:39 PM	#36
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Ok here is my guess. Some where along the way someone told you not to crimp your cases. You loaded up four rounds in your rifle and on the forth cartrage this problem happened. If this is the case, your bullet was pushed into the case from the recoil and created a high pressure problem. You are using the min load for that powder and bullet combination. You should not have a high pressure problem with that load. You also mentioned that a bullet will drop into the fired case. May I suggest that you take out your Factory Crimp Die and crimp (heavy) those cases. While a lot will tell you it will affect your accuracy, it actually helps your accuracy by letting the powder fully burn. Hope this helps. Jim

April 14, 2010, 08:42 PM	#37
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Classic signs of an over pressure load. Drop the charge by a couple grains and see what happens. This is where a chronograph could really show it's usefulness.

April 14, 2010, 08:51 PM	#38
Captain Hook Member Join Date: April 14, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 19	I like the theory about the crimps...But I only loaded the rifle 1 cart. at a time. I'm going to load up some more tomorrow at a 10% reduction and test that. I will also reload the Rem. with the reduced load to compare. I can see how the crony would really help. Will post tomorrow.

April 14, 2010, 09:05 PM	#39
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	If you loaded them 1 at a time then I would have a concern about your OAL and that it might be too long for the throat of your chamber. Do one case with a heavy crimp and see if your bolt will not close or if it is difficult to close. That would mean that the bullet is being pushed into the lands and groves. This could create a high pressure problem too. Jim

April 15, 2010, 07:19 AM	#41
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Good call Nick, His case could be to long causing the high pressure. CH trim those cases and try again.

April 15, 2010, 04:37 PM	#43
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Sounds and looks like you're doing better. Those cases have a normal amount of residue on the necks. Is there any way I could talk you into buying some IMR4350 for that combo? H335 is ideally suited to very small cartridges with light bullets. I load 150's for my buddies -06, and 335 wasn't even considered when I started looking at data. I don't even know why they list it. They shouldn't.

April 15, 2010, 04:52 PM	#44
Captain Hook Member Join Date: April 14, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 19	I actually bought the H335 for loading .223's I am certainly open to other powders.

April 15, 2010, 05:05 PM	#45
palabman Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: SW PA Posts: 80	As the previous poster said, I would go to IMR4350 or RL17

April 15, 2010, 08:26 PM	#46
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Good results, you trimmed fired cases before loading and the S & B cases still streached. Your soft brass theory may have some merit. Your 98 is beating the daylights out of those S & B rims on the cases. On heavy bullets I get good results with H4895. But then I use H4895 for almost any caliber. I use H335 only on 50 grain bullets or less in 223. Good Luck Jim

April 16, 2010, 02:39 AM	#49
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Capt. H, thus far, everyone has been looking at the brass. Obviously there's classic signs of over-pressure. Perhaps it's the rifle. You mentioned it's a sporterized Mauser 98. We're all aware that many such rifles were re-barreled after WW2 -- some of the work being better than others, and a lot can happen in 65-years. May I suggest you have your 98's headspace gauged to eliminate or confirm its part in your problem.

April 16, 2010, 04:46 AM	#50
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I used to load a lot of foreign brass. Norma is usually soft but S&B and Lapua are usually too hard. If the brass is too thick it will choke the bullet at the neck and bump up the pressure. A lot of guys turn the necks on military brass to avoid this. Also the neck where it meets the shoulder does not look right. I made a lot of reamers and the brass looks as if some one tried to redo the neck with a separate reamer. It might be an optical illusion with the photo, but that is the way it looks.