Which type of holster for training?

[Rangerrich99]

Just curious: for those of you who take training classes, do you typically use your EDC gun/holster (IWB, I assume), or do you use an OWB holster for training purposes?

I just took a class earlier this month and knowing I'd be drawing and re-holstering my weapon several dozen times, I opted to use an OWB holster, just to make things a bit easier.

However, I'm planning on taking a four-day course early next year and it occurred to me that there might be good reason to bring a IWB holster. Or maybe not, depending on what kind of reasons I get from this question.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[Bill West]

You should train the way you intend to fight.

[Deaf Smith]

You should train the way you intend to fight.

Yes.

And you should, "Make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance." -Miyamoto Musashi.

For you fight the way you train.

Deaf

[BlkHawk73]

Yup, what they said! Why train with something other than what you'd be actually using outside of class? If you're to be in a race, would to practice with a different vehicle than what'd you'r drive the race in? If going hunting, would you sight in or practice with a firearm other than what you'd be using in the woods? For these classes you're taking, are you going to use a handgun other than what you'd be carrying?

[T. O'Heir]

You should train with the ammo and kit with which you intend to defend you and your's.

[Rangerrich99]

I was afraid you guys would say that. My EDC currently is a S&W Shield 9mm, so I guess I'm going to get a few more mags and learn to get really good/fast at administrative/tactical reloads.

[pax]

Instead of asking the internet, ask the instructor whose class you intend to take. Different instructors emphasize different things in their classes. That can definitely affect how well students learn when they bring different types of equipment to class. The "right" answer here will very much depend on the class and the priorities your instructor has during class.

***

Now some longer thoughts as a counterpoint to some of the posts above.

Back when I was the editor of Concealed Carry Magazine, Karl Rehn wrote an excellent article titled, “Is a Pocket Gun Enough?” In it, he discussed many of the common experiences people have with little guns and some of the concerns people express about them (caliber, accuracy, capacity, shootability). It’s worth reading in its entirety, but one of the more fascinating things he did was that he ran a bunch of people through the same shooting test. Each person took the test twice: once with a full-size gun, and once with a pocket pistol.

He tested three groups of people:

• new, inexperienced, and untrained shooters
• intermediate shooters who had taken classes
• highly skilled shooters

What Karl found was that shooters who were not highly skilled — this would include long-time shooters who had taken no classes other than the basic carry permit class — gave up a LOT of skill when they moved to smaller guns. He also found that well-trained shooters could move down to the small guns with very little loss of skill. (You can see his data at this link.)

My observation as a long-time instructor (I've been teaching for around 14 years now) squares with Karl's measured data. I've seen that most people learn good gunhandling and shooting skills much quicker and much more easily on mid- to full-size guns. Once they have learned the skills with the "easier" gun, they can then transfer their skills downward to smaller guns. But people who start their serious training with a small gun often do not learn the skills easily at all. They get hit with a double whammy: they must shoot more rounds to achieve the same level of skill, and they struggle with physical fatigue and battering from higher levels of recoil -- which means they need to shoot more, but actually shoot less.

My own recommendation on the gun question would be to bring a mid- or full-size gun to your first class beyond the state-required permit class. After that class and an appropriate amount of practice, you can move down to the smaller gun you carry in daily life. That's likely to be the fastest route to skill development.

That brings us to the holster question. In my own classes, I require people to bring sturdy, non-collapsible holsters to class. Don't have a rule on IWB versus OWB, but I truly don't want people using squishy holsters in class. In some cases, I've gotten pushback from prospective students who don't understand why I would suggest they bring anything but the (generally craptastic) holsters they use in daily life.

The dirty little secret of the defensive firearms training world is that putting a loaded gun into a holster is the single most dangerous thing anyone ever does in a professional firearms training class. That's no exaggeration; ask any serious trainer and they will tell you the same thing. It's rare for someone to shoot themselves during a class, but when they do, it almost always results in either a stripe down the dominant leg (wayward finger + overquick sloppy holstering) or a serious injury to the non-dominant hand (hand steadying a floppy holster + wayward finger + overquick sloppy holstering).

Back to holsters. Every trainer has specific rules about which holsters can come to class. Almost without exception, these rules are designed to reduce the likelihood of a student shooting himself during the class, or (in the worst case) to reduce the seriousness of the injury if he does.

When I teach a class, I want to be sure every student is as safe as I can keep them. So until I have first taught the student how to safely use the holster and have helped them build in some good habits, I have to see what their trigger finger is doing every time they holster the gun. That’s one reason I don’t allow belly bands or purse holsters on the range, because these carry methods hide the students’ trigger fingers and hand placement from my view.

There’s another thing about belly bands and other types of squishy holsters. When students use collapsible holsters, it’s very hard for them to avoid passing the muzzle over the top of the non-shooting hand when they put the gun away. That’s because they’re holding the holster mouth open with the non-shooting hand. (There’s also a non-safety but equally valid concern with squishy holsters in a multi-person class: putting the gun safely back into these types of holsters can be very slow. It can be done safely, and I teach each student how to do it before the class is over. But since we draw and holster repeatedly during the class, students using collapsible holsters really slow down the class for the other students. That’s not fair.)

Our range work begins the process of building in safe behavior related to holsters. By the end of the weekend, the student's trigger finger and gun hand will be quite reliable at working safely around the holster they brought to class. This simple motor program will transfer over to other types of holsters as long as the student practices appropriately after class.

With this in mind, during class I teach students the basic principles of a safe draw. After we've done this, I help each student learn the appropriate draw for their own preferred carry method. So whether it’s a shoulder holster, an ankle holster, a purse or pack or bag, or some other carry method, I can and do show them how to use it safely. Even though we won’t use the alternate carry methods on the range, I do encourage my students to bring their own carry gear -- whatever it is -- so we can demonstrate, discuss, and practice the safest ways to use it. By the time class is over, the student will be able to take their own gear and use it safely, and they will know how to do the same whenever they buy new gear. That's the goal.

Closely related to this, the other reason I like to see students with their own sturdy range holsters is because I do want them to practice on a regular basis. Having that holster opens some doors that would otherwise be closed. For example, many ranges won’t allow people to work from the holster, but of those that do, they all require a belt-carried holster. Formal shooting competitions always require this type of holster. For those who continue learning (as I encourage all my students to do), the advantage of having this type of holster available is that they’re required in almost every other class from reputable trainers. So having a good, sturdy "range holster" lowers the barriers to regular practice and attending other events.

***

But ask your own instructor, and go with what they say. You're paying them for their expertise, so ... use it!

pax

[Nathan]

Asking the instructor is great advice. Asking yourself and thinking deeply about why you are concerned about your CCW'S ability to perform in class might be another thought.

If you are ready to fight with your shield, you should be welcoming the extra reps on reloads you are getting and extra shooting. If you are worried about recoil handling or ability to do extra mag changes, you might want to worry about that in real life too.

[Rangerrich99]

@pax;

Thanks for all the info. Really appreciate it. And the idea of asking my instructor is a great idea. As it concerns the choice of firearm, I did pretty much exactly what you described. My first two training classes (Intro to Handgun Training and Fundamentals of the Defensive Handgun) I took my Ruger GP-100, as it was the handgun I felt the most comfortable with at the time. It had the simplest manual of arms, was the easiest to shoot both accurately and quickly, and was easily the most reliable handgun in my possession at the time. The only drawback to the Ruger was the reloading process. Even with speed loaders it was slow and tedious. After that, I took my Sig P229, another full size weapon but with double the capacity, allowing for less reloading.

Now I feel it might be time to bring the Shield to this class coming up in April, as it's the sidearm I most frequently carry from day-to-day. Unfortunately, the only holster I have for it right now is a collapsible one, which has been great for EDC, but re-holstering is a pain and could be potentially dangerous (I've seen my share of YT vids of people shooting themselves as well). The holster is the main reason I haven't brought the Shield to a class so far.

@Nathan;

While I've never considered myself 'really good' with any of my handguns (I know too many shooters that are far beyond my abilities with a handgun), my regular instructor let me know at our last class that I was "good enough to join his intermediate class." I took that as a big compliment, as he almost never gives me (or anyone else) really positive feedback like that. To be clear, he's never negative with his comments; he's just not effusive with his praise. Usually you get something like, "okay, that's accurate enough, but we need to work more on your time to first shot." Or something similar.

Anyway, I feel pretty comfortable with my Shield at this point (about 800 rounds through it now), in terms of general handling, clearing of malfunctions, accuracy, etc. Definitely could use more work on tactical reloads.

However, my comment above about reloads was more about just the sheer number of reloads I'll have to do with the Shield, as opposed to one of my higher capacity weapons. A practice scenario that would take one or two reloads with my P229 for example, will take at least four or five reloads with my Shield. And consequently the amount of work my thumb will have to do during reloading breaks. This is a real concern for me as I have mild arthritis in both thumbs and shoving hundreds of rounds into those super tight Shield mags is probably going to involve some pain by the end of the weekend.

Anyway, back to the point, I'll ask my instructor about the holster situation at our next meeting. Maybe he'll have some suggestions as to make and model if necessary.

[JohnKSa]

If you feel it's not practical to use a small carry gun for the type of training you have planned, then use a larger gun but try to do the following:

Carry the gun in the same position (body location and holster cant) that you would normally have your carry gun. This way you'll be building muscle memory during the training that will work for your carry gun. There are some minor differences between an OWB and an IWB holster even if the position and cant are the same, but not enough to make a big difference.

Use a larger gun that has an identical manual of arms to your concealed carry gun--or at least as close as possible. In other words, if your carry gun is a "DAO" striker fired pistol with no manual safety, then try to do your training with a "DAO" striker fired full-sized pistol rather than, for example, a single-action only, hammer-fired pistol with a manual safety.

pax's comments on holsters are worth re-reading.

This is a real concern for me as I have mild arthritis in both thumbs and shoving hundreds of rounds into those super tight Shield mags is probably going to involve some pain by the end of the weekend.

Get an UPLULA. I've twice used one of these to load over 1000 rounds into pistol magazines in a single day. No thumb pain and they're faster than thumb loading.

My wife has problems with her hands and until we purchased an UPLULA she left all the magazine loading to me. Now she can load mags just as well as I can.

I heartily recommend them.

[Rangerrich99]

@JohnKSa;

Thanks, I'll look into one of those.

Ideally I'd use my Shield and have 10 mags loaded and ready to go at the beginning of each training day. However, I only have 2 mags, and those things aren't cheap. Getting another 8 mags would cost more than $200 I think. But if that thing you suggested really can help with the thumb issue, maybe I can make it work.

[JohnKSa]

This guy kind of hams it up at the beginning of the video, but it will give you a decent idea of how it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOaqyvd3LS0

[pax]

Sounds like you are well on track. Good on ya!

UpLula loaders are God's gift to serious shooters. No lie. The thing is one of the best investments you can make.

pax

[Rangerrich99]

Found an UpLula for $22 on amazon. Should arrive Wednesday.

[TailGator]

UpLula loaders are God's gift to serious shooters.

Hallelujah! Amen! Preach it, sister!

[FireForged]

You should train with the ammo and kit with which you intend to defend you and your's.

If the idea is to train with premium JHP ammo which is 2 or 3 times more expensive than FMJ simply because its what I intend to defend myself with.. I will strenuously disagree. It simply does not seem reasonable or practical and the difference less than negligible in my estimation.

[Chainsaw.]

Do not worry about speed. Speed effs things up. Worry about doing it smoothly and consistently.

The old adage,
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast,
Rings true.

[849ACSO]

You should train the way you intend to fight.

Words to live by, because other philosophies, folks have died by..........

[snubbyfan]

Still looking for a holster for my fighting gun.

[Rangerrich99]

I normally stick that gun in the back of my jeans, Magnum, P.I.-style.

[Model12Win]

I usually like to use whatever holster I plan to carry the gun in.

For my Makarov PM, it's my IWB holster as it is my carry gun. For my open carry gun, a Webley Mk IV, I use an OWB holster.

You run what ya brung and we train like we fight. And remember, one is none and two is one. And "the gun is the least of it".

[raimius]

Ranger rich, please reconsider. There are many things that can get inside a trigger guard, even through material like denim. With unholstered pants carry, every time you bump or brush something, you are risking a discharge.

...unless you meant the m-134, in which case, carry on!

[fastbolt]

Post #7 by Pax is worth reading and re-reading, to continue absorbing all the good points often glossed over by beginners (and even less experienced instructors, for that matter).

[Rangerrich99]

Ranger rich, please reconsider. There are many things that can get inside a trigger guard, even through material like denim. With unholstered pants carry, every time you bump or brush something, you are risking a discharge.

...unless you meant the m-134, in which case, carry on!

Yah, that's what I meant. Just thought the idea of that terminator gun stuffed in the back of my pants was a funny visual.

Oh, and I received my Uplula Wed. and tried it out yesterday. Verra verra nice. Can't believe I went this long without owning one. Makes both the Shield mags and the 1911 9mm mags a breeze; my thumbs thank you, JohnKSa.

[JohnKSa]

Glad it worked for you. At first glance they seem like another cheesy gadget designed primarily to take your money, but buying one is a pleasant surprise. They are sturdy, well made, and they work very, very well.