Why 8 bullets simply isnt enough...

[JohnH1963]

Many confrontations that occur nowadays happen with more then 1 hostile. There are usually 2 to 3 hostile characters. Some will flee when they see your 1911 while others will stay to fight until you are taken out.

I was thinking of this scenario where you are against 3 hostiles which is not an unusual situation. Your first 3-5 shots will probably miss. No target is ever stationary and when you produce your weapon then the target will start moving in a tactical manner.

8 shots is enough if you are up against just one person, but not enough for more. There is something to be said about "spray and prey". Sometimes its the only method to keep heads down while you make your strategic retreat preventing the hostiles from firing back.

Although spraying isnt the safest for nearby civilians, I believe its a method that will keep you alive.

Im seeing more pistols with higher capacities coming out to address the need that exists. Sig P226s now have a version which carries 15 .40s or 20 9 mms.

20 bullets may seem a little ridiculous, but I can picture a scenario where you are defending your house against 3 armed burglars in a remote rural area and they do not retreat. In that situation, pure firepower in volume is what is needed to drive them back.

Shot placement is a great idea, but try it against 3 mobile targets that are tactically evading you. You wont get a hit...

[alloy]

is this like shooting at folks across the street?

[Hondo11]

Spray and prAy, huh? Let me know how that works out for you.

[rampage841512]

20 bullets may seem a little ridiculous, but I can picture a scenario where you are defending your house against 3 armed burglars in a remote rural area and they do not retreat. In that situation, pure firepower in volume is what is needed to drive them back.

I've got a Mini-14 and 20 guage for defending my home from armed burglars.

I'll take my chances on the street with my 1911.

[anythingshiny]

I have to disagree on many issues...

My first 3-5 shots will NOT miss. Granted its a wild wolly world, but I train for fast AND accurate hits.

"spray and pray" might work in the congo, but if i dont see my front sights AND the target...I will not shoot.

I dont play the firepower vs capacity game. I carry enough of each.

If multiple bad guys are "tactially evading" me, I am shooting/moving and communicating...while "tactically engaging" them.

[nate45]

Well, despite the fact that if I was involved in your scenario at home I would use a shotgun or a rifle. Lets say I only have a single stack semi auto, are you familiar with the concept of reloading? What about the concept of accurate fire? Laying down suppressive fire with a handgun against armed assailants, who at least in your scenario start acting 'tactically' doesn't seem like the best option, no matter what your magazine capacity is.

By the way you got any statistics that support your claim, that it is becoming more and more common for multiple armed assailants, who are well practiced at offensive and defensive tactics, to assault people at their homes?

[ehughes]

you also have to take in the stopping power of the 45 acp, but as posted above, make every shot count

[Wildalaska]

Why 8 bullets simply isnt enough...

First of all they are called rounds. Second of all this is a stupid thread. What is this, video game scenarios?

WildbetoyuarentleeitherAlaska ™

[Bauer]

I did type a very long intelligent response, but I don't think this deserves it.

[Regular Joe]

I'll agree that 8 bullets would be spread thin in the scenario you present, but that's the problem with dreaming up scenarios. It would be most uncommon for any more than one or 2 people who are stupid enough to be gang-bangers and yet smart enough to actually do any training to mess with just one guy, unless you had foiled them in something they were already doing. Much more often, they engage in "training" by playing Nintendo and watching movies, and have no idea of how to actually go about conducting themselves in a fire fight.
I spend a fair amount of time in places where people go shooting, and even among those who think of it as training, there is ALWAYS only one or 2 who really know what they're doing, if any at all, and the rest are very much in the role of following the example of the guy who has a clue, if anyone does.
The fastest way to reduce the number of assailants is to "move fast, but slowly". Deliberately pick a target. Deliberately line up the sites, and blow a really nasty hole in it. The other targets see this, and the majority will know immediately that this is way over their head. If there are any still advancing on you, deliberately pick that TARGET, and repeat.
Take heed of the post by anythingshiny. Your training isn't just about shooting. It's about evasion, composure, and resolve.

[mavracer]

Your first 3-5 shots will probably miss.

yes, you need more ammo without a doubt.
Not to carry to practice. and for the love of bystanders put the carry weapon away til you do.

"spray and prey".

spray and pray your not prey.

[45_Shooter]

I agree; spray and pray is an excellent defensive tactic! That's why the military, law enforcement, firearms instructors, and everyone else who maes their living dealing with real life and death scenarios and situations.............oh wait they say it's an ignorant idea that doesn't work as well as proper training and aimed fire.

[JohnH1963]

Many people automatically assume that I am talking about lighting up the neighborhood of some urban area with a hail of rounds. However, my scenario is something different and probably fits certain people's situations on this website.

Living in a rural part of America, like MN or MT, there is no danger of a round going off to hit someone else. Houses are spread sometimes miles apart in good ole cow country. Sometimes you have to drive for miles to see any civilization.

Out in these rural parts of America, there are some strange characters and you never know their intentions. Many stories are abound of local gangs ans serial killers storming a farmer's house. The police are about an hours drive away.

In these parts of America, you need an assault rifle and high capacity handgun to live. There is no national guard or police in these remote parts of America. Its just you and you defend yourself.

[nate45]

Out in these rural parts of America, there are some strange characters and you never know their intentions. Many stories are abound of local gangs ans serial killers storming a farmer's house. The police are about an hours drive away.

In these parts of America, you need an assault rifle and high capacity handgun to live. There is no national guard or police in these remote parts of America. Its just you and you defend yourself.

You been watching a lot of movies lately?

[Wildalaska]

Many stories are abound of local gangs ans serial killers storming a farmer's house.

I challenge, nay I DEFY you to show us one documented case of an innocent farmer getting stormed by a "gang of serial killers"...unless you live with Night of the Living Dead seared into your consiousness

In these parts of America, you need an assault rifle and high capacity handgun to live. There is no national guard or police in these remote parts of America. Its just you and you defend yourself.

Mods...help. This is insane:barf:

WildthisisanadultboardisntitAlaska TM

[MTMilitiaman]

Spray and pray is never a good idea for a civilian, and rarely a good idea for anyone else.

The only people I see actively pursuing your philosophy is that "army" of disgruntled goat farmers in Iraq right now, and they are getting their butts handed to them every time they face US Army and Marines because of it.

Volume will never be an adequate substitution for accuracy.

A great many law enforcement and military types still favor the 1911, and other single stack .45s, despite the existence of higher capacity autos. In fact, revolvers remain popular in some crowds. And there is a reason for it. You can speak for yourself, but some people prefer to practice to proficiency and rely on tactics and shot placement rather than volume of fire or spray and pray. Spray and pray is not only likely to get you shot (if everybody is spraying and praying and nobody is aiming, everyone is theoretically equally likely to get shot in a one-on-one encounter, and if you're outnumbered, your odds go down), but assuming you survive, you're going to have to account for every single round you fire. You're probably paying for any damaged property, and certainly going to be held accountable for any third party injuries sustained.

I know I am not the best with a handgun, but I just picked up a SIG P220 on election day and prefer it over the larger capacity G20 it replaced. It feels and points better for me, and its shooting characteristics promote better shot placement. So while no one ever lost a gunfight by having a few extra rounds in the magazine, capacity is not the most important factor in a gun fight, and odds almost always favor the one using his sights. So for me, eight rounds is enough. If it isn't, I'll reload. But I figure if I make use of what I got and keep the proper mindset, I should be a step above the panicy spray and pray crowd. If I do that, I should be able to at least fight my way to my M1A. And then the fight is over.

Living in a rural part of America, like MN or MT, there is no danger of a round going off to hit someone else. Houses are spread sometimes miles apart in good ole cow country. Sometimes you have to drive for miles to see any civilization.

Okay, yes, there is always a risk of having an errant round strike an innocent third party. Even in rural MT, where I have spent my entire life.

Yes, help is often farther away for us than in more urbanized areas, and yes, you're probably going to be on your own.

No, you don't need a high capacity handgun and an assault rifle to live. Generations of Montanans have gotten by with nothing more than a .22 and a 12 gauge, or a bolt action .30-06 and a .44, or just a lever action .30-30. How did John Wayne ever survive, I wonder, without an M60?

I am all for upgrading firepower. I love my M1A. But to assume it is necessary, or even beneficial to do so when you handicap yourself with the wrong mindset and tactics is simply wrong.

[JohnH1963]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader

Here is my example Wildalaska and that is the BTK killer who murdered some 10 people randomly over the course of several years. I encourage you to read that article a few times so you can grasp the concept.

Dennis Rader is but one example, I have quite a few others. This link is to Google news which shows over 10000 news articles listed under the search term "home invasion" **for the last month alone**:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=...-8&sa=N&tab=wn

Finally, lets look at this site which lists over 1400 American adults missing:

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/ga...=Adult&alpha=%

Now do you think this topic is so silly? If you ever have any doubts about owning a firearm or thinking you have too many, then just take a look at the missing persons website. Some of those guys on there are pretty bulky, but they disappeared and their bodies were never found.

I dont think this topic is insane. One day you might know one of these people who disappeared and maybe if they had the right firepower then it wouldnt have happened that way. Its a serious topic and not one to lightly jest or mock.

[Brit]

The reason we privileged denizens of the US of A carry pistols, is to shoot people.

The concealed carry of a lethal weapon means you are prepared to fire bullets into the living flesh of an other human being, quite possibly more than one person, and most likely multiple rounds will be expended..

No? that is not why you carry a pistol? Then why do you carry a pistol?

[dogtown tom]

JohnH1963: Many confrontations that occur nowadays happen with more then 1 hostile. There are usually 2 to 3 hostile characters...

Unless your in Iraq, you are wrong. The VAST majority of violent crime is by one assailant.

JohnH1963: ...when you produce your weapon then the target will start moving in a tactical manner.

"Tactical manner"? Like running away? Or do the go stealthly like a ninja? Produce a weapon and very few people will just stand there.

JohnH1963: 8 shots is enough if you are up against just one person, but not enough for more. There is something to be said about "spray and prey".

That something is wasted rounds. A twenty round magazine of misses doesn't matter as much as one hit.

JohnH1963: Sometimes its the only method to keep heads down while you make your strategic retreat preventing the hostiles from firing back.

The only thing that will prevent the "hostiles" from returning fire is if your rounds stop them. Supressive fire works quite well when you have a full automatic weapon with several hundred rounds. It's plain STUPID when you are carrying only a handgun. Unless, of course, it's a movie.

JohnH1963: Although spraying isnt the safest for nearby civilians, I believe its a method that will keep you alive.

No. You die when the bad guy hits you with one aimed round. If you live and bystanders die, you get the needle.

JohnH1963: Im seeing more pistols with higher capacities coming out to address the need that exists. Sig P226s now have a version which carries 15 .40s or 20 9 mms.

Extended magazines have been around for decades. Try concealing one.

JohnH1963: 20 bullets may seem a little ridiculous, but I can picture a scenario where you are defending your house against 3 armed burglars in a remote rural area and they do not retreat. In that situation, pure firepower in volume is what is needed to drive them back.

WRONG. You still don't get the idea that one must actually hit the target to stop a threat. Simply shooting for the sake of scaring them does not stop anything.

JohnH1963: Shot placement is a great idea, but try it against 3 mobile targets that are tactically evading you. You wont get a hit...

Again, WTH do you mean by "tactically evading"? If I can hit a duck in flight with a shotgun from 40yds, I'm sure a tactically evading ninja has no chance.

[Rich Miranda]

20 bullets may seem a little ridiculous, but I can picture a scenario where you are defending your house against 3 armed burglars in a remote rural area and they do not retreat. In that situation, pure firepower in volume is what is needed to drive them back.

Shot placement is a great idea, but try it against 3 mobile targets that are tactically evading you. You wont get a hit...

I agree that it is possible that you may face a "gang" of home invaders. An entire town rising up and coming to your door to kill you is also within the realm of possibility. But the likelihood -of either- is slim. Nevertheless, this is what we home-and self-defenders prepare for, right? So, keep as many magazines at the ready as you need to feel safe with. Period.

Next, with regard to spray and pray. One can go through an awful lot of ammo real quick this way. What if they hunker down while you spray? Then, after you exhaust your 20 magazines, they move in? All that's left to do is pray.

Realistically, most gunfights won't last long after the shots start. You'll be dead, or they will, or they'll decide that your LCD TV isn't worth their life. If they do happen to decide to fight it out, you have the advantage of knowing your property and your home better than they do. You can wait in a tactically superior location (with both cell and landline phones to call LE) and wait for them to come to you. When they do, you kill them. If they take all your stuff while you hide, so be it.

Yes, there may be some occasions where a few 'extra' shots might scare off the baddies. But the odds of you hitting one with spray and pray seems even lower than careful, aimed shots.

[Wildalaska]

Here is my example Wildalaska and that is the BTK killer who murdered some 10 people randomly over the course of several years.

So much for the hordes of Zombies. One serial killer does not the Army of Darkness make.

Dennis Rader is but one example, I have quite a few others. This link is to Google news which shows over 10000 news articles listed under the search term "home invasion" **for the last month alone**:

I'm still waiting for the hordes of zombies, not dopers invading each other for dope

Now do you think this topic is so silly? If you ever have any doubts about owning a firearm or thinking you have too many, then just take a look at the missing persons website. Some of those guys on there are pretty bulky, but they disappeared and their bodies were never found.

Bwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhahahahahahahah...Son I've been up on the Mother Ship getting probed in you know where....all the guns in the world wont help you when Grizhnak Slobberbobber of the Zarkon Federation puts the mind meld on ya and transports ya up for study.....

WildheylookboysandgirlsoutsideoverthererealityAlaska TM

[hillbillyshooter]

JohnH,
You sarted off talking about gangs and such, then travelled into talking about the BTK guy. If you can't hit Dennis Rader (a large fella) with eight shots then you need to practice or shouldn't be shooting. You also started this thread talking about defending in public (or so it seemed) then in your home. If your worried about # or rounds then get a cheap HD shotgun with 00 buck and you will have plenty of projectiles going towards the BG. I think this thread should die about NOW.

[B.A.]

Can't resist replying to this one, since I know someone who was in exactly this type of situation and acted in the way the great majority of posters have recommended above.

It wasn't a home invasion but at a restaurant. Two bad guys came in (a third one was already there acting as look-out and a fourth was in a car outside) and started making a ruckus. My mate stayed calm and quiet until they started shooting at the ceiling, which was when he decided enough was enough. He pulled his 1911 .45, shot the closest target dead and shot big holes in the second target before #2 was helped by target #3, also shot by now, out the door in a hurry at which point my mate reckoned the threat was over and the bad guys drove off.

No spray and pray, no stray bullets. Calm, decisive action taking out one target at a time until the threat was over. The "tactical" movements of the bad guys were to haul a** and get the heck outta there, away from this madman.

I asked him later if he would consider carrying something with a larger capacity after what had happened, but he just smiled and said "No, I reload real fast..."

The only thing I can find on the net corroberating the story is the very cleaned up version at:

http://www.tzaffairs.org/?m=200409

near the bottom, under "crime". In reality, of course, the cops got there after it was all over, although they did chase them across town and into a ditch, as far as I know.

[B.A.]

Addendum:

So, silly as this thread is and unlikely as the scenario may be depending on where you are in the world; according to the only incident I have ever been privy to, the OPs recommendations to maximise capacity and "spray and pray" (or do you "prey" before spraying?) seem NOT to be the conventional wisdom and certainly were not how THIS incident played out with a happy ending for all but the BGs.

Having said that, I carry 14+1, but I don't shoot as well as he does...

[csmsss]

If I'm in the need of suppressing fire, I'm in a world of [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] that no handgun is going to get me out of.