How Not To Get Shot By A Good Guy

threegun · July 2, 2007, 06:14 AM

Say you are holding a perp at gunpoint and a police officer, fellow CCW holder, or off duty cop decides to respond. All they see is a man holding a gun pointing it at another. You may or may not have already fired your gun further raising the responders Adrenalin. How do you prevent them from shooting you before they know who is who?

A friend of mine gave me an idea that I use today and recommend to others. I bought a badge that looks like those carried by police. In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting. I asked close to a dozen Tampa police officers, detectives and HCSO deputies if it would make them pause and they said absolutely followed by good idea. It says CWP permit so you won't get in trouble for impersonating an officer.

Kentucky Deer Hunter · July 2, 2007, 07:23 AM

Perspective #1: CCW holding the perp at bay

Hopefully there would be time to dial 911 first and talk to them or stick it in my pocket while it is still connected. When the cops get there, drop the gun and follow all orders and don't put up a fight. They'll figure it out, there is usually a good guy and a bad guy, shouldn't be too hard.

Perspective #2: CCW holder walking up on the situation

If I arrived into that situation, hopefully I would be a little responsible and dial 911 first. Then take a good look at the situation from good cover. I would never trust anyone who just holds up a badge during a gun fight... What if they are impersonating an officer... then I would be the next victim.

This is a gray area that I believe would come down to actually being in the situation. Now if I had just spoken with 911 and they said that there was an officer on the scene, I would not be as leery. But then this goes back to the previous forum thread about 'Would you help an officer in a gunfight'.

Main thing, stay on your toes and keep an eye on the situation from an advantage point (preferably good cover) and don't jump in too quick.

Just a thought... Criminals do this for a living, do we have to keep giving them good ideas?

Engloid · July 2, 2007, 07:25 AM

I think I'd just put my gun down when the cop got there, and let him sort out who the bad guy was.

ATW525 · July 2, 2007, 07:37 AM

I wouldn't hold a perp at gun point. It's not my job to detain or arrest people, only to stop a threat. So, I'd retreat to safety as soon as possible and then call the police. The exception is inside my home, where the bad guy had better do the retreating if he knows what's good for him or else he gets shot to the ground.

newarcher · July 2, 2007, 08:48 AM

That's the world's dumbest idea...IMHO.

Would that be a CCW badge?

New

CraigJS · July 2, 2007, 08:59 AM

Newarcher, I second that opinion.

Tanzer · July 2, 2007, 09:12 AM

A badge that identifies you as a CWP holder? Why not get a T-shirt with a target on it that reads "shoot me first"? There's a reason why it's a CONCEALED weapon.

ATW525 · July 2, 2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

A badge that identifies you as a CWP holder? Why not get a T-shirt with a target on it that reads "shoot me first"? There's a reason why it's a CONCEALED weapon.

I believe the badge is supposed to be concealed as well, until needed, not pinned on the person's shirt all day. Though that would be rather humorous.

threegun · July 2, 2007, 09:58 AM

Guys you carry the "badge" in your pocket and remove it when you need it.

Quote:

That's the world's dumbest idea...IMHO.

When you get involved in a shoot out and are forced to cover the bad guy it might save your life. Since off duty cops occassionally get shot by the good guys it will make the good guys pause thus giving them time to find out whats going on. Officers from two agencies say it will work on them and its a great idea.

Quote:

I would never trust anyone who just holds up a badge during a gun fight... What if they are impersonating an officer... then I would be the next victim.

But you wouldn't shoot that person without making sure either which is the desired effect.

Quote:

You have a good idea. Unfortunately in my neighborhood they wood arrest me for impersonating.

Sorry to hear that. Here in Tampa, Fl. the officers I talked to said that as long as I don't claim to be a cop I'm good. All I have done is removed and displayed my permit..........alone with the "concealed weapons permit" badge in preparation to show arriving law enforcement.

jfrey123 · July 2, 2007, 10:04 AM

You hold up a badge, especially after detaining someone at gun point, and you're likely to go to jail for Impersonating an Officer. But, if you are comfortable with that risk, you might want to invest in a small blue or red revolving light for your car.

If the situation requires you maintain control of a situation by use of an pointed firearm, I believe you would be just fine with putting your weapon down when police arrive on scene. As long as you don't point at police, they should be fairly gental on you while they figure out what is going on. If they witness you pointing at a perp on the ground, but not firing, that kinda declares your purpose on this scene. Even with that "badge", or any other form of ID, you are probably going to be handcuffed and disarmed while police run through the on scene investigation. LEO's please correct me if I'm wrong.

threegun · July 2, 2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

You hold up a badge, especially after detaining someone at gun point, and you're likely to go to jail for Impersonating an Officer. But, if you are comfortable with that risk, you might want to invest in a small blue or red revolving light for your car.

Jeff, I wasn't comfortable with it until I asked officers, detectives, and deputies from two different agencies. They all said no law was broken and they all thought it was a smart move.

Quote:

If the situation requires you maintain control of a situation by use of an pointed firearm, I believe you would be just fine with putting your weapon down when police arrive on scene. As long as you don't point at police, they should be fairly gental on you while they figure out what is going on.

Have you ever heard of off duty officers getting shot by friendlies? I have. Sometimes for whatever reason they screw up. This badge could prevent this accident. With some of the yahoo's who carry guns with permits that are just itchin to shoot someone........................I think I'll use my badge idea.

Imagine the Utah mall shooting and the chaos with that. It just plain makes sense to carry the badge. After the cops said it was okay it just has no down sides IMO.

CraigJS · July 2, 2007, 10:53 AM

And if you go to trial or are sued for the shooting, I hope your lawyer can explain that you wern't playing cop.. Something that the BG's lawyer will most likely try to push.
You'd be better off having your carry permit and DL in your hand when the PD rolls up. This of course is after you make a 911 call on your cell reporting what happened, along with your description. Or if needed have someone else make the call on your phone.
Be safe.

newarcher · July 2, 2007, 11:43 AM

Revisiting....

If it is abundantly clear that I have a valid reason to subdue someone using my gun I will...assuming I didn't shoot them to begin with. Then it occurs to me (sitting here in my chair) that I am going to do what I have seen the cops do via felony stop procedures....turn them around, on their knees, on their belly, ankles crossed, arms behind their back palms up, faced turned away from me. Then I will take control by putting my knee and all 285 pounds that follow it into their rib cage....perhaps even multiple times depending on the crime. Once I am confident that I have control of them by sitting my knee on their neck, I will re-holster my weapon. When the police arrive, I will keep my knee in his neck while I raise my hands and wait for the police instructions. All this is dependent on the fact that the bad guy is going to follow my unstructions instead of running off (knowing human nature is to avoid shooting at all costs) when I tell him to freeze.

I will not be holding any gun when the police arrive. I respect the hell out of most police but, just like any profession, there are some spark plugs that can't be relied on for reasonableness.

Of course, as the really PROPERLY trained people here....you know them, they have pictures of a famous rock....will undoubtedly point out, I am an untrained cubicle ninja and my opinion has no validity. Our little exercises in what would you do aren't really valid training and thought provolking exercises. Only when you paid a small fortune to take a picture of a rock, roll around in the dirt and the crush and run like a SWAT mole, and shoot at cardboard through poorly designed movie sets are you REALLY qualified to tell us what to do. :barf:

New

1006smith · July 2, 2007, 11:52 AM

Just a question for situations other than your home. You have him at gun point so I "assume" he is now unarmed. If he tries to run are you going to shoot him??? If so, you just shot an unarmed person. I believe it to be a bad idea for a citizen to hold another at gun point. There are far too many things that can go wrong and the gun owner will be held responsible for almost any actions involving his gun. That's one reason police carry handcuffs; to minimize the amount of time a gun is pointed at a suspect.

I may be wrong here but it sounds like someone is trying setting up a stage to be a hero. Another option would be to ask other citizens to assist in detaining the suspect, put away the gun, and wait for the police. You can explain everything to the police when they arrive and still be the hero.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 2, 2007, 12:07 PM

In an NTI FOF, I had shot the BG as the cops arrived. I threw my hands in the air and yelled: GOOD GUY repeatedly and loudly. Then I followed instructions.

I have no desire to hold some at gun point or go digging through my wallet in the middle of a fight.

You need to clearly communicate that you are not the threat and follow orders. You are the victim.

ATW525 · July 2, 2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Just a question for situations other than your home. You have him at gun point so I "assume" he is now unarmed. If he tries to run are you going to shoot him???

Exactly. Once the threat has stopped the firearm in your hand is nothing more than an empty threat unless you want to serve prison time. Are you going to shoot the guy if he procedes to call your mother names after dropping his weapon? What if his response to your commands to turn around and get on down his knees is to tell you to go have sex with yourself? He could spit on you, he could urinate on you... heck... he could probably even deck you with his bare fist and you still might go to prison for pulling the trigger.

newarcher · July 2, 2007, 12:48 PM

If he is just being rude, I might wing him

If he is leaving, I will let him go.

My feeling is that if he is disarmed and staying and the weapon is near, it is still a threat. We all know how quickly someone can close distances. I would probably never have given him a chance to disarm if he is in my house or had actually threatened me with the gun in public. My home is my castle and I will iflict grave bodily harm on anyone who enters it with malice on their minds....also certain inlaws.

New

gvf · July 2, 2007, 12:54 PM

A CCW gives you no special powers to hold suspects.

threegun · July 2, 2007, 02:46 PM

Glenn, You are dead on and I would do as instructed immediately. What I feel the badge does is cause a delay in getting shot by friendlies until they are in control of the situation.

You other guys can do what you want. I was just offering something different. If you are concerned that simply explaining that you didn't want the cops to think that you were the bad guy and shoot you before having the chance to explain so, then don't use the idea. If you think it will cause you to wanna play cop then don't use the idea. If you think it will cause you to murder a fleeing suspect then don't use the idea. Jeez you guys are a trip.

If like me and many law officers you feel it will reduce the chance of getting shot by a friendly then use it.

armedandsafe · July 2, 2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

A CCW gives you no special powers to hold suspects.

True. However, many states do give residents and citizens that power under certain circumstances. Read the law before you need to use it.

Pops

Redneckrepairs · July 2, 2007, 03:01 PM

Pretty simple actualy with a couple of rules .

1. dont hold anyone at gunpoint .

2. dont have a gun in hand when LE shows up have it visible on the floor /ground between your feet , and back off as commanded .

threegun · July 2, 2007, 03:14 PM

You absolutely have the right to hold a person who just attempted a forcable felony on you.

Since I am not LE I don't care if bad guy runs when I take command of the situation. Once the threat is over if the bad guy gets on the ground very good if he runs away very good. I win either way. My job is to insure my safety and my families safety. This includes not getting shot by a LE officer or CCP holder that have itchy trigger fingers.

Microgunner · July 2, 2007, 04:01 PM

Sorry Threegun, but I think it's a dumb idea also and have told you so on several occasions. Ditch the badge and lay your weapon down upon the arrival of the authorities. But I must say, it's a nice shiny badge though.

Hemicuda · July 2, 2007, 07:18 PM

Wow, Threegun... I have (as a keepsake) my mother's first badge... she was county prosecutor here for years... MAYBE I oughtta use the 1977 CLEO badge... since it ain't 1977, anymore, it isn't impersonating an officer...

BAD idea... (but so is pulling a gun to "detain" someone...)

David Armstrong · July 2, 2007, 07:29 PM

Detaining BG at gunpoint----Bad idea.
Waving around a badge if you aren't a LEO---Bad idea.
Having a gun in your hands when the LEOs respond to a "man with a gun" call----Bad idea.

Starting to see a pattern here??

July 2, 2007, 11:43 AM	#13
newarcher Junior member Join Date: May 19, 2007 Posts: 108	Revisiting.... If it is abundantly clear that I have a valid reason to subdue someone using my gun I will...assuming I didn't shoot them to begin with. Then it occurs to me (sitting here in my chair) that I am going to do what I have seen the cops do via felony stop procedures....turn them around, on their knees, on their belly, ankles crossed, arms behind their back palms up, faced turned away from me. Then I will take control by putting my knee and all 285 pounds that follow it into their rib cage....perhaps even multiple times depending on the crime. Once I am confident that I have control of them by sitting my knee on their neck, I will re-holster my weapon. When the police arrive, I will keep my knee in his neck while I raise my hands and wait for the police instructions. All this is dependent on the fact that the bad guy is going to follow my unstructions instead of running off (knowing human nature is to avoid shooting at all costs) when I tell him to freeze. I will not be holding any gun when the police arrive. I respect the hell out of most police but, just like any profession, there are some spark plugs that can't be relied on for reasonableness. Of course, as the really PROPERLY trained people here....you know them, they have pictures of a famous rock....will undoubtedly point out, I am an untrained cubicle ninja and my opinion has no validity. Our little exercises in what would you do aren't really valid training and thought provolking exercises. Only when you paid a small fortune to take a picture of a rock, roll around in the dirt and the crush and run like a SWAT mole, and shoot at cardboard through poorly designed movie sets are you REALLY qualified to tell us what to do. :barf: New Last edited by newarcher; July 2, 2007 at 12:20 PM.

July 2, 2007, 12:07 PM	#15
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	In an NTI FOF, I had shot the BG as the cops arrived. I threw my hands in the air and yelled: GOOD GUY repeatedly and loudly. Then I followed instructions. I have no desire to hold some at gun point or go digging through my wallet in the middle of a fight. You need to clearly communicate that you are not the threat and follow orders. You are the victim. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 2, 2007, 06:14 AM	#1
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	How Not To Get Shot By A Good Guy Say you are holding a perp at gunpoint and a police officer, fellow CCW holder, or off duty cop decides to respond. All they see is a man holding a gun pointing it at another. You may or may not have already fired your gun further raising the responders Adrenalin. How do you prevent them from shooting you before they know who is who? A friend of mine gave me an idea that I use today and recommend to others. I bought a badge that looks like those carried by police. In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting. I asked close to a dozen Tampa police officers, detectives and HCSO deputies if it would make them pause and they said absolutely followed by good idea. It says CWP permit so you won't get in trouble for impersonating an officer.

July 2, 2007, 07:23 AM	#2
Kentucky Deer Hunter Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2006 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 110	Perspective #1: CCW holding the perp at bay Hopefully there would be time to dial 911 first and talk to them or stick it in my pocket while it is still connected. When the cops get there, drop the gun and follow all orders and don't put up a fight. They'll figure it out, there is usually a good guy and a bad guy, shouldn't be too hard. Perspective #2: CCW holder walking up on the situation If I arrived into that situation, hopefully I would be a little responsible and dial 911 first. Then take a good look at the situation from good cover. I would never trust anyone who just holds up a badge during a gun fight... What if they are impersonating an officer... then I would be the next victim. This is a gray area that I believe would come down to actually being in the situation. Now if I had just spoken with 911 and they said that there was an officer on the scene, I would not be as leery. But then this goes back to the previous forum thread about 'Would you help an officer in a gunfight'. Main thing, stay on your toes and keep an eye on the situation from an advantage point (preferably good cover) and don't jump in too quick. Just a thought... Criminals do this for a living, do we have to keep giving them good ideas? Last edited by Kentucky Deer Hunter; July 2, 2007 at 07:32 AM. Reason: Added a 2nd perspective of the situation

July 2, 2007, 07:25 AM	#3
Engloid Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Posts: 36	I think I'd just put my gun down when the cop got there, and let him sort out who the bad guy was.

July 2, 2007, 07:37 AM	#4
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	I wouldn't hold a perp at gun point. It's not my job to detain or arrest people, only to stop a threat. So, I'd retreat to safety as soon as possible and then call the police. The exception is inside my home, where the bad guy had better do the retreating if he knows what's good for him or else he gets shot to the ground.

July 2, 2007, 08:48 AM	#5
newarcher Junior member Join Date: May 19, 2007 Posts: 108	That's the world's dumbest idea...IMHO. Would that be a CCW badge? New

July 2, 2007, 08:59 AM	#6
CraigJS Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 372	Newarcher, I second that opinion.

July 2, 2007, 09:12 AM	#7
Tanzer Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Posts: 884	A badge that identifies you as a CWP holder? Why not get a T-shirt with a target on it that reads "shoot me first"? There's a reason why it's a CONCEALED weapon.

July 2, 2007, 10:04 AM	#10
jfrey123 Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2006 Location: Reno, NV. Posts: 1,026	You hold up a badge, especially after detaining someone at gun point, and you're likely to go to jail for Impersonating an Officer. But, if you are comfortable with that risk, you might want to invest in a small blue or red revolving light for your car. If the situation requires you maintain control of a situation by use of an pointed firearm, I believe you would be just fine with putting your weapon down when police arrive on scene. As long as you don't point at police, they should be fairly gental on you while they figure out what is going on. If they witness you pointing at a perp on the ground, but not firing, that kinda declares your purpose on this scene. Even with that "badge", or any other form of ID, you are probably going to be handcuffed and disarmed while police run through the on scene investigation. LEO's please correct me if I'm wrong.

July 2, 2007, 10:53 AM	#12
CraigJS Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 372	And if you go to trial or are sued for the shooting, I hope your lawyer can explain that you wern't playing cop.. Something that the BG's lawyer will most likely try to push. You'd be better off having your carry permit and DL in your hand when the PD rolls up. This of course is after you make a 911 call on your cell reporting what happened, along with your description. Or if needed have someone else make the call on your phone. Be safe.

July 2, 2007, 11:52 AM	#14
1006smith Member Join Date: November 17, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 75	Just a question for situations other than your home. You have him at gun point so I "assume" he is now unarmed. If he tries to run are you going to shoot him??? If so, you just shot an unarmed person. I believe it to be a bad idea for a citizen to hold another at gun point. There are far too many things that can go wrong and the gun owner will be held responsible for almost any actions involving his gun. That's one reason police carry handcuffs; to minimize the amount of time a gun is pointed at a suspect. I may be wrong here but it sounds like someone is trying setting up a stage to be a hero. Another option would be to ask other citizens to assist in detaining the suspect, put away the gun, and wait for the police. You can explain everything to the police when they arrive and still be the hero.

July 2, 2007, 12:48 PM	#17
newarcher Junior member Join Date: May 19, 2007 Posts: 108	If he is just being rude, I might wing him If he is leaving, I will let him go. My feeling is that if he is disarmed and staying and the weapon is near, it is still a threat. We all know how quickly someone can close distances. I would probably never have given him a chance to disarm if he is in my house or had actually threatened me with the gun in public. My home is my castle and I will iflict grave bodily harm on anyone who enters it with malice on their minds....also certain inlaws. New

July 2, 2007, 12:54 PM	#18
gvf Junior member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 1,226	A CCW gives you no special powers to hold suspects.

July 2, 2007, 02:46 PM	#19
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Glenn, You are dead on and I would do as instructed immediately. What I feel the badge does is cause a delay in getting shot by friendlies until they are in control of the situation. You other guys can do what you want. I was just offering something different. If you are concerned that simply explaining that you didn't want the cops to think that you were the bad guy and shoot you before having the chance to explain so, then don't use the idea. If you think it will cause you to wanna play cop then don't use the idea. If you think it will cause you to murder a fleeing suspect then don't use the idea. Jeez you guys are a trip. If like me and many law officers you feel it will reduce the chance of getting shot by a friendly then use it.

July 2, 2007, 03:01 PM	#21
Redneckrepairs Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 666	Pretty simple actualy with a couple of rules . 1. dont hold anyone at gunpoint . 2. dont have a gun in hand when LE shows up have it visible on the floor /ground between your feet , and back off as commanded .

July 2, 2007, 03:14 PM	#22
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	You absolutely have the right to hold a person who just attempted a forcable felony on you. Since I am not LE I don't care if bad guy runs when I take command of the situation. Once the threat is over if the bad guy gets on the ground very good if he runs away very good. I win either way. My job is to insure my safety and my families safety. This includes not getting shot by a LE officer or CCP holder that have itchy trigger fingers.

July 2, 2007, 04:01 PM	#23
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	Sorry Threegun, but I think it's a dumb idea also and have told you so on several occasions. Ditch the badge and lay your weapon down upon the arrival of the authorities. But I must say, it's a nice shiny badge though.

July 2, 2007, 07:18 PM	#24
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	Wow, Threegun... I have (as a keepsake) my mother's first badge... she was county prosecutor here for years... MAYBE I oughtta use the 1977 CLEO badge... since it ain't 1977, anymore, it isn't impersonating an officer... BAD idea... (but so is pulling a gun to "detain" someone...)

July 2, 2007, 07:29 PM	#25
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	Detaining BG at gunpoint----Bad idea. Waving around a badge if you aren't a LEO---Bad idea. Having a gun in your hands when the LEOs respond to a "man with a gun" call----Bad idea. Starting to see a pattern here??