Help me pick a low light scope - Page 2

Dranrab · December 15, 2017, 07:28 PM

Objective diameter and exit pupil are but part of the equation. Coatings count for a lot. It's a pretty long read, but worthwhile, particularly near the end. The author wrote this freelance and does not take money from any advertisers.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/

Mobuck · December 16, 2017, 07:28 AM

"Something no one has mentioned yet is stalking closer to your prey."

Most hunters in my area don't "stalk" anything except their deer blind. The OP is wanting a "magical optic" that will make the last 5 minutes of shooting light usable.
My suggestion is to ditch the 6-18X optic and get something in the 3-9 or 4-12 range with a 40mm front lens in order to get as much light gathering capability as possible w/o encumbering himself with such an obnoxious scope as he's currently using.
I shoot right up to the "30 minutes past sundown" quite often with 3-9x40 and 2-7x32 scopes w/o much problems.

BBarn · December 16, 2017, 07:51 AM

The OP has a good 6-18x40 now. He says it's bright enough at 6X, but not powerful enough at 6X to see the rack. At 18X he can see the racks in daylight, but it's too dim near quitin' time. He doesn't say whether he's tried an intermediate powers between 6X and 18X. If he has tried other “between” settings and they don't work, buying a 3-9X40 or 4-12X40 isn't likely to get him much since the objective diameter (40mm) is the biggest limiting factor.

The VX-2 scopes have good optics/coatings, but not the best. He may gain a little with 40mm objective scope with “better” optics/coatings, but I wouldn't advise that approach as one you could count on.

THE · December 16, 2017, 08:13 AM

You guys are right about lower power scopes. I have low power scopes on all of my hunting rifles ( 2X7`s and 3X9`s Leupold. The VX 2 is an excellent scope and can be had sometimes for $230. In my neck of the woods shots are rarely over 60 yards so the lower power scopes are the ticket, but being closer to your prey helps in those low light situations.

jmr40 · December 16, 2017, 09:16 AM

Objective size and magnification go hand in hand in low light. Divide the front objective size by the magnification you are using to determine the diameter of the light beam exiting the rear of the scope. Around 5mm is optimal. Any less and you don't have enough light. For most people they can't use any more.

Your current scope when set on 8X should be the optimal setting for low light use. Going up to a 50mm scope will only allow you to move up to 9X and get more light than you can get with your 40mm scope. The 50mm scope will allow exactly the same amount of light at 10X as your 40mm scope will at 8X. The 50mm lense will allow more light through at lower magnifications than the 40mm scope. But your eyes can't use it.

But this only measures the size of the light beam, not how much light is getting through. Budget scopes selling under $300 typically allow 85%-90% of the light entering the front objective to exit the rear. The mid range $300-$1000 scopes are in the 90%-95% range. Above $1000 and you get light transmissions at 95%+

A Leupold VX-2 or 3 is going to be very near 95% light transmission and even with a 40mm objective will leave PLENTY of light for shooting during legal times. I took a buck a couple of weeks 5 minutes after legal shooting time, still 25 minutes before sunrise, with a 1-4X20 scope set on 4X. It wouldn't have been legal, but I could have made that shot 15 minutes earlier.

Dranrab · December 16, 2017, 09:28 AM

Outlaws around here moonlight. They hunt a bright moon at all hours of the night. Even as little as a bright quarter moon can give enough light to identify and accurately shoot a good buck. When I hunt in the early morning or late evening, I can always make the shot at the ranges I hunt at during the legal shooting hours. That's with 3-9x40 scopes. But the OP is talking about extended ranges. I don't have those opportunities.

misterE · December 16, 2017, 10:51 AM

Didn’t realize a 6-18 was “obnoxious” for deer hunting. I only use this rifle/scope setup out of 2 box stands that have 300 yard+ shots. I like the high magnification for identifying deer. Hard to tell some times if it’s a doe or buttonhead out past 200 sometimes. Or a 5-1/2 year old 8pt or 3-1/2. Rest of my rifle hunting is done out of a climber with a rem700 308bdl with a 2.5-8x36 scope and yes I’ve killed plenty of deer with it right up to dark. As far as stalking- I am an avid bow hunter so I totally get people saying just move closer. Gets hard to do late season like this when there’s no cover.

I realize I’m asking for opinions for maybe a magical cure to a minuscule problem. Only reason I even brought this up is cause this buck I’m hunting is a 6-1/2 year old 8pt me and my cousin have been trying to kill for 3 years. He’s totally nocturnal until here lately he’s been coming out on that one food plot right at dark about 250 yards from the stand. Coming out of a bedding area and usually there’s already 10-15 deer that have come out which is why I really don’t want to try and get closer. Tomorrow is the last day of gun season so I wouldn’t be using this new scope til next year anyways. Hell I started rifle hunting with a 270 with a 4power Tasco scope on it and killled plenty of deer with it. I just happen to be at a point financially where I can afford a nicer scope so I figured I’d pick y’all a brains.

Definitely appreciate all the comments though. I’ve learned a couple things from y’all. Keep them coming

mellow_c · December 16, 2017, 05:04 PM

This is a big scope, and it would probably be a little much in a lot if ways, but I love the idea of it and just wish I had something to put one on!

Trijicon Accupower 2.5-10x56

Now THAT would be a pretty neat low light scope! Huge objective, good glass, and reliable battery powered illuminated reticle.

OzeanJaeger · December 16, 2017, 05:22 PM

Quote:

But your eyes can't use it.

This keeps being repeated and is a misunderstanding of the article and the function of the iris and pupil in your eye.

Yes, when too much light enters your eye your iris contracts and closes down your pupil so that too much light doesn’t hit your retina and it isn’t dammaged. Big objective lenses will overload your eye in full sunlight and your iris will compensate and your pupil will shrink to a dot. This DOES NOT HAPPEN till full light. When it’s dark and you’re looking through a dark scope your iris is holding your pupil wide open, and it will stay that way till it has full light. Adding light in the dark is NOT going to make your iris contract, period. It may allow you to see though when it’s too dark to see with the naked eye.

Great if 40mm is plenty for you. Everyone’s eyes are not the same. I prefer a brighter scope at twilight. Maybe your eyes are better than mine. Good for you. Count your blessings. I would hunt a 1-9X60 if they made one, because I have found myself on a cloudy morning or afternoon at twilight bringing the rifle up on a deer, and not taking the shot because it was too dark, and I was not 100% on the deer with a 40mm scope.

May this never happen to you, and may peace be upon your head! However, in low light your eye is not going to shut out light because it comes from a scope with a larger objective. Almost all my hunting scopes are 3-9x40 SFP, which are generally ideal...but not always.

603Country · December 16, 2017, 06:12 PM

Divide the magnification setting into the exit bell size, such as 4 into 40. Naturally, that gives you a 10, which in theory is great. Unfortunately, depending on your age, you can’t use all of that anyway. Everybody’s eyes are different, but about 5 is all you can utilize, and at my age maybe 4. Play with the scope a bit and you will be able to find where your brightest magnification setting will be.

Saltydog235 · December 16, 2017, 10:47 PM

Quality of glass also enters into the equation. A 40mm of one scope in a certain price range may not have the quality of coatings for LT that another has. For instance a Leupold VX3 doesn’t compare to a Trijicon or Meopta per se.

Also, you ever wonder why you don’t see too many S&B, Ziess, NF, Leica 40’s compared to the 50-56 offerings? And, many manufacturers use their own LT formulas to cook their numbers. For instance Nikon claims something like 98% LT in a Prostaff yet my Leica and S&B claim 90-92%. Which do you think are better in low light? I can tell you it isn’t the Nikon, I’m still sitting and seeing while that fellow is eating dinner at home.

If you’re hiking and stalking, smaller and lighter and slimmer is better. If you’re in a stand and looking over a beanfield or down a dark tunnel of trees or firebreak, mounting a Hubble on top of your rifle isn’t a bad idea. I personally don’t hunt a rifle in the evenings with less than a 50 on it. My Leica and S&B are 56’s. I can guarantee you, I’ll be in the stand and IDing deer long after you’re done with your 40. Or lower end 50’s.

OzeanJaeger · December 17, 2017, 12:22 AM

True dat.

Mobuck · December 17, 2017, 07:30 AM

"Didn’t realize a 6-18 was “obnoxious” for deer hunting."

A matter of perception. A hunter does not have to "see every hair" on the game to make his shot and often too much magnification is a hindrance rather than an advantage.

Dranrab · December 17, 2017, 08:51 AM

No such thing as too much magnification when you can dial it down to a point that it's not too much magnification.

bungiex88 · December 17, 2017, 12:37 PM

I have that same vx3 scope you are considering and it is amazing for low light. Mines the 30mm tube though.

Don Fischer · December 17, 2017, 12:43 PM

I have never shot one of my 3-9x on 9x. But if 9x won't let you see well enough, you are likely to far away to make the shot in the first place. If it is the last moment's of shooting light you can probably see well at 3x but probably can't see antler's all that far off. But if you like your super huge scope, a 6-24x I think it was, use it! Your gonna have limitation's no matter what you use, either on the high side or low side!

misterE · December 17, 2017, 04:59 PM

Just ordered a Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x56mm. This will be my only rifle with a 40+ objective, but I just figured why not since I only use this long heavy rifle out of the 2 box stands I have with long shots. Figure I can get a cheek pad if necessary. It was between that and a Leica can’t remember the model but it also had a 56mm objective. Came down to the Leupold was about $500 cheaper and has the fire dot reticle. Never had an illuminated reticle and I think that will be very handy also. Thanks for all the input folks! I’ll let y’all know how it does.

NHSHOOTER · December 17, 2017, 07:24 PM

misterE I think you made a great choice. I know we wont know how well it works out until next season but be sure to let us know, that may well be a scope in my future. I too hunt box stands in SC and I know just what your talking about..

Dranrab · December 17, 2017, 07:39 PM

I think you got a good one. Let us know how it works.

Saltydog235 · December 17, 2017, 08:29 PM

Heard good things about the VX-5 HD but never looked through one. I have looked through the VX-6 and while good, it doesn't hold a candle to the Leica. My Leica is and ER5 and isn't one of the ERi or Magnus high end models but it's glass isn't very far off from my S&B Stratos.

Troy800 · December 17, 2017, 08:49 PM

You will need a high quality scope to see clear at that magnification. Simply going fro 40 to 50 mm objective will not be enough. Will also need some quality glass.

I use 50 mm scopes on my hunting rifles with no issues. Were i hunt we are not allowed to shoot within 200 yards of a feed plot so getting closer may not be an option. I use Zeiss conquest and have no issues at dusk but i rarely hunt at higher magnification.

December 16, 2017, 08:13 AM	#29
THE Member Join Date: November 6, 2017 Posts: 35	You guys are right about lower power scopes. I have low power scopes on all of my hunting rifles ( 2X7`s and 3X9`s Leupold. The VX 2 is an excellent scope and can be had sometimes for $230. In my neck of the woods shots are rarely over 60 yards so the lower power scopes are the ticket, but being closer to your prey helps in those low light situations. Last edited by THE; December 16, 2017 at 08:21 AM.

December 16, 2017, 09:16 AM	#30
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,820	Objective size and magnification go hand in hand in low light. Divide the front objective size by the magnification you are using to determine the diameter of the light beam exiting the rear of the scope. Around 5mm is optimal. Any less and you don't have enough light. For most people they can't use any more. Your current scope when set on 8X should be the optimal setting for low light use. Going up to a 50mm scope will only allow you to move up to 9X and get more light than you can get with your 40mm scope. The 50mm scope will allow exactly the same amount of light at 10X as your 40mm scope will at 8X. The 50mm lense will allow more light through at lower magnifications than the 40mm scope. But your eyes can't use it. But this only measures the size of the light beam, not how much light is getting through. Budget scopes selling under $300 typically allow 85%-90% of the light entering the front objective to exit the rear. The mid range $300-$1000 scopes are in the 90%-95% range. Above $1000 and you get light transmissions at 95%+ A Leupold VX-2 or 3 is going to be very near 95% light transmission and even with a 40mm objective will leave PLENTY of light for shooting during legal times. I took a buck a couple of weeks 5 minutes after legal shooting time, still 25 minutes before sunrise, with a 1-4X20 scope set on 4X. It wouldn't have been legal, but I could have made that shot 15 minutes earlier. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

December 17, 2017, 12:37 PM	#40
bungiex88 Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2015 Location: central pa Posts: 264	I have that same vx3 scope you are considering and it is amazing for low light. Mines the 30mm tube though. __________________ Life is to short to give a darn

December 15, 2017, 07:28 PM	#26
Dranrab Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Location: NOLA Posts: 203	Objective diameter and exit pupil are but part of the equation. Coatings count for a lot. It's a pretty long read, but worthwhile, particularly near the end. The author wrote this freelance and does not take money from any advertisers. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/

December 16, 2017, 07:28 AM	#27
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Something no one has mentioned yet is stalking closer to your prey." Most hunters in my area don't "stalk" anything except their deer blind. The OP is wanting a "magical optic" that will make the last 5 minutes of shooting light usable. My suggestion is to ditch the 6-18X optic and get something in the 3-9 or 4-12 range with a 40mm front lens in order to get as much light gathering capability as possible w/o encumbering himself with such an obnoxious scope as he's currently using. I shoot right up to the "30 minutes past sundown" quite often with 3-9x40 and 2-7x32 scopes w/o much problems.

December 16, 2017, 07:51 AM	#28
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	The OP has a good 6-18x40 now. He says it's bright enough at 6X, but not powerful enough at 6X to see the rack. At 18X he can see the racks in daylight, but it's too dim near quitin' time. He doesn't say whether he's tried an intermediate powers between 6X and 18X. If he has tried other “between” settings and they don't work, buying a 3-9X40 or 4-12X40 isn't likely to get him much since the objective diameter (40mm) is the biggest limiting factor. The VX-2 scopes have good optics/coatings, but not the best. He may gain a little with 40mm objective scope with “better” optics/coatings, but I wouldn't advise that approach as one you could count on.

December 16, 2017, 09:28 AM	#31
Dranrab Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Location: NOLA Posts: 203	Outlaws around here moonlight. They hunt a bright moon at all hours of the night. Even as little as a bright quarter moon can give enough light to identify and accurately shoot a good buck. When I hunt in the early morning or late evening, I can always make the shot at the ranges I hunt at during the legal shooting hours. That's with 3-9x40 scopes. But the OP is talking about extended ranges. I don't have those opportunities.

December 16, 2017, 10:51 AM	#32
misterE Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2009 Location: Benton, Arkansas Posts: 196	Didn’t realize a 6-18 was “obnoxious” for deer hunting. I only use this rifle/scope setup out of 2 box stands that have 300 yard+ shots. I like the high magnification for identifying deer. Hard to tell some times if it’s a doe or buttonhead out past 200 sometimes. Or a 5-1/2 year old 8pt or 3-1/2. Rest of my rifle hunting is done out of a climber with a rem700 308bdl with a 2.5-8x36 scope and yes I’ve killed plenty of deer with it right up to dark. As far as stalking- I am an avid bow hunter so I totally get people saying just move closer. Gets hard to do late season like this when there’s no cover. I realize I’m asking for opinions for maybe a magical cure to a minuscule problem. Only reason I even brought this up is cause this buck I’m hunting is a 6-1/2 year old 8pt me and my cousin have been trying to kill for 3 years. He’s totally nocturnal until here lately he’s been coming out on that one food plot right at dark about 250 yards from the stand. Coming out of a bedding area and usually there’s already 10-15 deer that have come out which is why I really don’t want to try and get closer. Tomorrow is the last day of gun season so I wouldn’t be using this new scope til next year anyways. Hell I started rifle hunting with a 270 with a 4power Tasco scope on it and killled plenty of deer with it. I just happen to be at a point financially where I can afford a nicer scope so I figured I’d pick y’all a brains. Definitely appreciate all the comments though. I’ve learned a couple things from y’all. Keep them coming

December 16, 2017, 05:04 PM	#33
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	This is a big scope, and it would probably be a little much in a lot if ways, but I love the idea of it and just wish I had something to put one on! Trijicon Accupower 2.5-10x56 Now THAT would be a pretty neat low light scope! Huge objective, good glass, and reliable battery powered illuminated reticle.

December 16, 2017, 06:12 PM	#35
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 4,000	Divide the magnification setting into the exit bell size, such as 4 into 40. Naturally, that gives you a 10, which in theory is great. Unfortunately, depending on your age, you can’t use all of that anyway. Everybody’s eyes are different, but about 5 is all you can utilize, and at my age maybe 4. Play with the scope a bit and you will be able to find where your brightest magnification setting will be.

December 16, 2017, 10:47 PM	#36
Saltydog235 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2010 Location: Pawleys Island Posts: 1,563	Quality of glass also enters into the equation. A 40mm of one scope in a certain price range may not have the quality of coatings for LT that another has. For instance a Leupold VX3 doesn’t compare to a Trijicon or Meopta per se. Also, you ever wonder why you don’t see too many S&B, Ziess, NF, Leica 40’s compared to the 50-56 offerings? And, many manufacturers use their own LT formulas to cook their numbers. For instance Nikon claims something like 98% LT in a Prostaff yet my Leica and S&B claim 90-92%. Which do you think are better in low light? I can tell you it isn’t the Nikon, I’m still sitting and seeing while that fellow is eating dinner at home. If you’re hiking and stalking, smaller and lighter and slimmer is better. If you’re in a stand and looking over a beanfield or down a dark tunnel of trees or firebreak, mounting a Hubble on top of your rifle isn’t a bad idea. I personally don’t hunt a rifle in the evenings with less than a 50 on it. My Leica and S&B are 56’s. I can guarantee you, I’ll be in the stand and IDing deer long after you’re done with your 40. Or lower end 50’s.

December 17, 2017, 12:22 AM	#37
OzeanJaeger Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2014 Posts: 301	True dat.

December 17, 2017, 07:30 AM	#38
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Didn’t realize a 6-18 was “obnoxious” for deer hunting." A matter of perception. A hunter does not have to "see every hair" on the game to make his shot and often too much magnification is a hindrance rather than an advantage.

December 17, 2017, 08:51 AM	#39
Dranrab Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Location: NOLA Posts: 203	No such thing as too much magnification when you can dial it down to a point that it's not too much magnification.

December 17, 2017, 12:43 PM	#41
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I have never shot one of my 3-9x on 9x. But if 9x won't let you see well enough, you are likely to far away to make the shot in the first place. If it is the last moment's of shooting light you can probably see well at 3x but probably can't see antler's all that far off. But if you like your super huge scope, a 6-24x I think it was, use it! Your gonna have limitation's no matter what you use, either on the high side or low side!

December 17, 2017, 04:59 PM	#42
misterE Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2009 Location: Benton, Arkansas Posts: 196	Just ordered a Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x56mm. This will be my only rifle with a 40+ objective, but I just figured why not since I only use this long heavy rifle out of the 2 box stands I have with long shots. Figure I can get a cheek pad if necessary. It was between that and a Leica can’t remember the model but it also had a 56mm objective. Came down to the Leupold was about $500 cheaper and has the fire dot reticle. Never had an illuminated reticle and I think that will be very handy also. Thanks for all the input folks! I’ll let y’all know how it does.

December 17, 2017, 07:24 PM	#43
NHSHOOTER Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2012 Location: Concord NH Posts: 1,002	misterE I think you made a great choice. I know we wont know how well it works out until next season but be sure to let us know, that may well be a scope in my future. I too hunt box stands in SC and I know just what your talking about..

December 17, 2017, 07:39 PM	#44
Dranrab Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Location: NOLA Posts: 203	I think you got a good one. Let us know how it works.

December 17, 2017, 08:29 PM	#45
Saltydog235 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2010 Location: Pawleys Island Posts: 1,563	Heard good things about the VX-5 HD but never looked through one. I have looked through the VX-6 and while good, it doesn't hold a candle to the Leica. My Leica is and ER5 and isn't one of the ERi or Magnus high end models but it's glass isn't very far off from my S&B Stratos.

December 17, 2017, 08:49 PM	#46
Troy800 Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2015 Posts: 118	You will need a high quality scope to see clear at that magnification. Simply going fro 40 to 50 mm objective will not be enough. Will also need some quality glass. I use 50 mm scopes on my hunting rifles with no issues. Were i hunt we are not allowed to shoot within 200 yards of a feed plot so getting closer may not be an option. I use Zeiss conquest and have no issues at dusk but i rarely hunt at higher magnification.