FFL who abused your held gun. What to do?

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by AustinTX

You should avoid extrapolating from your own particular experience to form assumptions about what works or does not work for all other business, and you should avoid assuming that your particular set of experiences allows you such piercing insight into what anyone else here has or has not done. Evidently this policy would have been a nightmare where you worked. That doesn't mean that would be the case everywhere else.

You're absolutely right: I've worked at two LGSs and helped a friend out at a third, but my experience is far from all-encompassing. I should amend my statement by saying that no one should expect a normal high-volume LGS to conduct business this way. If they want a specialty shop that is willing to spend the extra time, effort, and money to do this, then they should find a shop like the one you mentioned.

But expecting all shops to work this way is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Theohazard

You're absolutely right: I've worked at two LGSs and helped a friend out at a third, but my experience is far from all-encompassing. I should amend my statement by saying that no one should expect a normal high-volume LGS to conduct business this way. If they want a specialty shop that is willing to spend the extra time, effort, and money to do this, then they should find a shop like the one you mentioned. ....

I'm glad that's settled.

The law is what it is. If someone has been able to make an arrangement with a dealer that both satisfies his expectations and permits the dealer to comply with legal requirement, swell.

On the other hand, no one should expect any businessman to skirt legal requirements and put his continued existence in business in jeopardy.

[AustinTX]

But expecting all shops to work this way is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

On the other hand, no one should expect any businessman to skirt legal requirements and put his continued existence in business in jeopardy.

Totally agree with these statements.

[Mike Irwin]

"I never said that it wasn't the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. What I'm saying is that it's not possible to guarantee anyone else's behavior, even if you subjected them to assiduous evaluation prior to hiring them."

Well, then, you're in sort of an interesting conundrum. You can either find a single-employee FFL, find one who's willing to bend the law (or break it), or buy your guns at gunshows.

If your FFL is as great as you say he is, then you shouldn't have any problem with him making a bad situation right if one of his employees does something he shouldn't.

Let's face it, though, anytime you purchase a gun in a manner that requires it to be shipped, you're putting your property in the hands of a large number of unknown people who you hope will perform their jobs in such a way that it won't damage your property.

"I said I appreciate a shop that will leave the package unopened as long as legally possible..."

I'm sure all of us do. In a low-volume gun shop that might be a reasonable request to make. But in some gunshops that deal in dozens, or hundreds, or guns a day, it's simply not feasible. Too much tracking, and far too much potential for innocently violating the letter of the law.

"You make far too many unfounded assumptions."

And I'm sorry, but I have to counter that (I know you weren't talking to me directly) that you're really working under a set of unrealistic expectations, especially given the hostile enforcement climate that BATFE has built.

[AustinTX]

I think you're misunderstanding me. If you read what I've said, you'll see that it's not my "expectation" for any business to conduct itself this way. It's simply something I greatly appreciate, and it's a definite point in favor of any shop that does. If it simply weren't available to me, I'd definitely deal -- just like I did during the years before I found this shop. But now that I've found my current dealer, I don't have to use anyone else.

If your FFL is as great as you say he is, then you shouldn't have any problem with him making a bad situation right if one of his employees does something he shouldn't.

I guess? He runs his business how he sees fit. I'm not going to ask him to start opening boxes as soon as they come in and take then take care of any problems his very few employees might someday create -- just like I didn't ask him not to open the boxes in the first place.

Let's face it, though, anytime you purchase a gun in a manner that requires it to be shipped, you're putting your property in the hands of a large number of unknown people who you hope will perform their jobs in such a way that it won't damage your property.

I certainly agree with that. I'm relying on the multiple FedEx/UPS/USPS employees who handle the box not to be incompetent, negligent, or malicious with my particular package (and not to be thieves, which happened with packages involving a bunch of gun shops in the Austin area a few years ago). But eliminating one possible node where problems could arise -- one that frankly is not a terribly uncommon source of complaint on gun forums -- where someone else besides the seller can physically handle the actual gun I'm buying before I see it is something I regard as a plus. That's all. I don't "expect" it of anyone. But if I were considering two similar businesses as receiving dealers, and one has the policy while the other does not, it would certainly be a point in favor of the former.

In a low-volume gun shop that might be a reasonable request to make. But in some gunshops that deal in dozens, or hundreds, or guns a day, it's simply not feasible. Too much tracking, and far too much potential for innocently violating the letter of the law.

I'm not arguing against that either. In fact, I agreed with this in the very first sentence I wrote in this thread.

And, personally, it's not even something I'd feel comfortable requesting. Like I said, I didn't have to ask for it. My dealer evidently understands that some people appreciate his having this policy, and he has evidently calculated that the costs of implementing it are outweighed by the trust, goodwill, etc. that it generates for him and his business.

[chexmix]

If this was going to be a carry gun I would not really have a problem with minor scratches, the gun is gonna get em anyways. If it was going to be a safe queen I would not take it.

Guns in my mind are meant to be used, keep em clean but don't baby them.

[natman]

At that particular point of time, can you still reject the gun and ask the original shop who sold it to take it back and refund you, or the gun has become yours the second you signed the background check form two days earlier?

Like it or not, the gun is yours at this point, ethically if not legally as well. If the gun arrived in excellent condition but is now so damaged that you don't want it, what makes you think the seller is now going to take it back after (from his perspective) you damaged it?

Work it out with the FFL. The seller sold it in excellent condition, he packed it so it arrived in excellent condition. There's no reason he should have to deal with it now.

[Venom1956]

We had a gun shop like this in town. He's now out of business (not surprising) and it always felt to me that we were helping him with his hobby not the other way around. ordering guns for the store that he wanted and selling them after he grew tired of them as NIB, I was gonna order a 5.45 from him but after him bragging about running to cans of 7n6 thru a different gun on the rack over the weekend I thought better of it.

Sounds like you are kinda SOL but I would hash it out with the owner a civilly as possible and find yourself another FFL to do business with.

[RodTheWrench]

I don't suppose the FFL has cameras and video footage of what went on with your gun?

[Snyper]

Seriously, why must you open the box before the customer gets there?
It's not like you're not going to catch the wrong serial-numbered guns by waiting, is it? That way, you BOTH get to see it at the same time. Especially if ATF isn't going to bop you for it. I know all about being busy and needing to get things done, but c'mon folks!

If you're the dealer doing the transfer, it's legally "your " gun until the customer completes the paperwork and a transfer is approved, and therefore needs to be logged in.

No one puts all the info on the outside of the box, and quite often any "packng list is IN the box.

If you want to take chances with YOUR license, that's your choice.

Most dealers open boxes as they come in due to lack of room and to save confusion as to "what's in that box again?"

[dogtown tom]

Yesterday I received twelve firearms:
-Eight had invoices, packing slips or receipts INSIDE the box with no customer name on the outside.
-Two (both from Bud's) had a packing slip on the outside with the buyers name and phone#.
-One (from a large Sig dealer) had an invoice...........but it didn't have any information on the customer....just my name and address....I have no idea who bought this gun.
-One had no information at all. No FFL. No buyers name. Nothing. Fortunately it's a pretty odd gun and I was able to run down the buyer in about five minutes.

Guess how many boxes didn't need to be opened?

[Tom Servo]

One had no information at all. No FFL. No buyers name. Nothing. Fortunately it's a pretty odd gun and I was able to run down the buyer in about five minutes.

Ah, mystery guns. How I detest them. I've had guns show up with no documentation other than "Bob Smith, [illegible scrawl], [maybe "Dalls?"], TX" scrawled in the return address field. I can't even properly log that onto the books, nor do I have any way of contacting the sender.

(This is why many dealers refuse shipment from unlicensed individuals.)

As for Bud's, I had a Ruger rifle shipped in last week that was labeled .308 on the box but actually turned out to be chambered in 7mm-08. I've had two instances in the last six months from them in which the serial number on the invoice was incorrect.

CDNN has sent invoices that have nothing in common with the contents of the box.

Those situations are actually real problems for a dealer from a record-keeping standpoint.

[carguychris]

Just out of curiosity, what does a dealer do from a record-keeping standpoint if the sender CANNOT be identified?

[dogtown tom]

Tom Servo ....(This is why many dealers refuse shipment from unlicensed individuals.)

99% of my mystery guns come from FFL's.

carguychris Just out of curiosity, what does a dealer do from a record-keeping standpoint if the sender CANNOT be identified?

I don't transfer the firearm. (the buyer knows who he bought it from)

I've had a gun sit in my safe for a month because there was no buyer information in the box. I Googled the pawnshop that shipped the gun and guess what............phone was disconnected. Yelp showed them to be out of business. I wonder why.

[armoredman]

I worked two FFLs, one low volume, one not so much. Anything that came in was opened and logged in, no exceptions. ATFE has NO sense of humor.
To the OP - the guns on the shelf/in the back room were not to be played with in any way shape or form. Guns ON the shelf could be handled to demonstrate to a potential customer, but guns in the back were not if the customer liked what he saw, but wanted one that hand't been handled. Guns owned by a customer at the store were NOT to be touched by any employee except the gunsmith or the manager. In the situation you describe, "Delay", the firearm in question would have been placed back into it's box, sealed with a copy of the receipt attached, in the back on the "Customer Shelf"...and there it would have stayed for the three day time limit. I would never ever use that shop again, and if the owner doesn't make it right, let us know who it was. Very sorry this happened to you, hope it all works out for the best.

[Tom Servo]

99% of my mystery guns come from FFL's.

Huh. I'm the opposite. I suppose it depends on market.

I have had to do the whole Sherlock Holmes thing with unprofessional dealers. Apparently, it's the 8th labor of Hercules to drop a receipt and copy of an FFL in the box. I do so love it when I call them and get a message saying they're only open from 1-2 PM every third Thursday. Even better are the ones who don't even have voicemail, email, or fax. It's 2014, folks!

(The absolute worst trouble I've had with this has been with machine guns. The small dealers are often woefully clueless and difficult to reach.)

Just out of curiosity, what does a dealer do from a record-keeping standpoint if the sender CANNOT be identified?

There's not much. I put a note on it indicating the situation in case of an audit, but I can't transfer it out if I can't log it in. Usually, the purchaser will get incensed enough to contact the sender.

In other cases, I've threatened to turn the guns over to local law enforcement, in which case they're pretty much gone. That seems to get people on the stick.

[zach_]

After reading through this, was the buyer able to refuse the gun?

Is there a point in the paperwork to stop before actually taking possession that protects you? I have never had a problem, but I was always shown the gun I was buying and it didn't leave my sight through the rest of the process. The store employees seemed to make an effort not to touch the guns.

This is why I don't buy things over the internet unless there is no other option.