Forward Assist - Why Everyone NEEDS Them...

[Shadow9mm]

By forward assist, do you mean the sniper button?

[FrankenMauser]

I think you mean turbo button.

It says a lot about the thought that went into each design, that AKs only have the power level selector part way down the barrel, but (most) ARs have a conveniently located turbo button.

[44 AMP]

Not being up on current slang, I'm unsure what the turbo or sniper button could be, but I don't see how the forward assist could be either of those.

The first M16A1 I was issued had the "teardrop" forward assist button, and that was the friendliest feature I've ever experienced on a fire arm. I mean that sucker would reach out and hold on to EVERYTHING. Sticks, stems, leaves, even my web gear and clothes. And, don't even think about being able to move underneath a camo net!

100% of my use of the forward assist was getting it unhooked from what it got snagged on. And, I'm serious, 100%. I never used it as a forward assist.

My second M16A1 was newer and had the round button. Reduced the snag factor about 90% and got the same amount of use as a forward assist as the previous rifle did.

I did use the FA on a civilian gun, got a batch of poorly sized ammo, and used the forward assist to ensure complete chambering. One time, it did. The next 4 times, (because I was stupidly stubborn) it did not fully chamber the bad rounds, it jammed the gun up so tight you could not open it with the charging handle, and I had to disassemble the gun to clear it.

For comparison, I was also shooting a Mini 14 at the time, and the bad ammo only failed to chamber about 1/4 as often as the AR jammed and a rap on the back of the op rod handle always locked the gun shut, and it fired.

The Forward assist was a "solution" to the design having a charging handle that only worked in one direction. I've had HKs, FALs and many others, and for me having a large, STEEL charging handle that moves the bolt back when pulled back and moves it forward when pushed forward is the superior system.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The Forward assist was a "solution" to the design having a charging handle that only worked in one direction. I've had HKs, FALs and many others, and for me having a large, STEEL charging handle that moves the bolt back when pulled bad and moves it forward when pushed forward is the superior system.

Side charger. But like FA, people don't care about it either. The handle could nag too.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

Anything that sticks out from the rifle can snag, and I put up with that for things that actually DO things. The FA does nothing, unless there is a malfunction and then MAYBE it will work, maybe not.

There are quite a few firearms that were not designed by people with experience using firearms in combat. Some of those designs were outstanding in their day, some, not so much.

Engineers often look at the world differently than operators. The original AR 15 wasn't a bad rifle, but some of its features proved less than the best as a military combat weapon.

Awkward charging handle only working one way, and made of thin aluminum, the "wait a minute" 3 prong flash suppressor, the relatively fragile handguards, the "not needed" then "needed" forward assist assembly are case(s) in point.

When you have a weapon with larger moving parts, or that doesn't lock up the way the AR does forward assists that aren't part of the standard charging handle are pretty rare. Simply because there is little or no recognized need.

[rickyrick]

I bet this feature gets discussed way more often than actual events lead up to its actual use. At least in civilian context.

It does have a military use, and it’s been called in some above posts, “turbo button” etc.
But when needed in a firefight, it’s probably thought of as the “help me (deity of choice)!! button” or the “ oh (insert profanity here )!! button”

[Forte S+W]

While the forward assist is known to have been a government mandated feature which wasn't approved of by Eugene Stoner and is functional detrimental in the case of a failure to feed because it's more likely to result in a stuck case, folks clearly want the forward assist on the AR-15 as evidenced by the fact that it's a standard feature on practically every AR Upper.

Heck, I even recall that back in the day when Smith & Wesson first introduced the original M&P15 Sport sans Forward Assist, it gained a surprising amount of criticism for the omission of such a feature with some even going so far as to say that the Forward Assist was "vital" to the reliability of the AR-15, so when Smith & Wesson released the M&P15 Sport II they added a Forward Assist.

Personally, I'm fine with the presence of the Forward Assist on my M&P15X, as it's part of the whole iconic M4A1 SOPMOD Block 1 appearance of the carbine, and although I'll most likely never use it since I'd be more apt to simply eject a round which failed to feed by pulling back the charging handle as Eugene Stoner intended, it is a comfort to know that it's there in case I should ever find myself in the unlikely self-defense scenario in which a round fails to feed and I don't have the luxury of manually cycling the action.

[44 AMP]

with some even going so far as to say that the Forward Assist was "vital" to the reliability of the AR-15, ..

Some people told me voting for Hillary was vital to our nation. They were also wrong.

Clearly its not vital, the AR-15 was designed and ran reliably without one.

One might make the case it is useful for the M16 family of military arms, but I think "vital" is overstressing the point, considerably.

I can only think of one situation where the forward assist reliably performs an important task, and its NOT getting a stuck round into the chamber and locking the bolt shut. While that is the stated purpose of the FA, it only does it some of the time, and its a 50/50 chance on every time it is used for that.

Meaning, it either works or it doesn't. If it works, fine. If it doesn't, you may have jammed the gun so that it takes disassembly to clear the stuck round. I've done it /had it happen to me, it IS a real thing.

The one place I know of where the FA has a valid use and does work reliably is its role in returning the rifle to service after it gets submerged.

Since I no longer low crawl through rice paddies, roll in the mud or cross rivers and streams on foot, the odds of my rifle getting dunked are slim and none, and slim left town a while back.

[Crankylove]

2 of my 3 AR’s have them, but only to fill the hole in the upper.

I’ve never really been a fan of jamming a problem round ever harder into the bore.

My SP1 doesn’t have one, and it’s been going fine since ‘73.

[Screwball]

I have some with… some without.

Main ones without are 9mms and retro.

9mm bolts aren’t cut for them, and no point having a receiver with one that cannot work. There was a meltdown video of a Stern upper that the assist claw came off and jammed up the gun. Yet, Stern still sells uppers with forward assists. I switched to a slick side upper sometime before the pistol was SBRed. Other 9mm I have is a DOE clone, which I just got my stamp back (six days, crossing over Christmas… pretty impressive).

Retro… comes down to my H&R 604. I liked the original concept of the AR-15, and that is a lightweight 20” rifle. I really didn’t care about the forward assist… but it is the option that was available from PSA. I put in a chromed BCG, but I am happy with it.

I do have a rifle built on a KE Arms polymer lower, and that doesn’t have a forward assist. Not because I had to have the gun without it… just the parts I had for the build.

I have plenty of ARs with forward assists. Colt 6920, 20” NM upper and even my original DPMS build. The one I really want a forward assist on… .22 upper. I use the CMMG bolt with a Spikes dedicated upper. The forward assist block helps with any issues.

[44 AMP]

The pistol caliber and .22LR ARs are blowback actions. They don't lock shut. The standard forward assist (and the slots on the bolt carrier where the pawl engages) is there to force the bolt carrier forward until the bolt locks shut so the weapon can fire.

Such a system would be of little use on a blowback action.

[NEPrepper]

i like them. if for nothing else i'm used to them after 6 years using an m16/m4 as an infantryman

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Such a system would be of little use on a blowback action.

Works well for me when I have a dirty rifle that has issue chambering a round…

[44 AMP]

You have a blow back action that has a functional forward assist??

(the charging handle does not count as a forward assist)

[DaleA]

the "wait a minute" 3 prong flash suppressor,

I'm familiar with the 3 prong flash suppressor and stories of soldiers (mis) using it to break the band on a case of c-rations but I've never heard the phrase 'the "wait a minute" 3 prong flash suppressor'. I'd be interested/grateful for an explanation.

[44 AMP]

The "wait a minute" slang came out of Vietnam. The three prong open ended flash suppressor was VERY prone to catching on, or being tangled in vegetation.

Nothing says "wait a minute" like having your rifle snagged in the jungle (vines are a real treat for that), where you have to unsnag your rifle, and then make sure there isn't stuff in the suppressor before you could move or worse, shoot.

Supplies delivered by chopper were nearly always banded to their pallets with metal "banding straps" and yes, despite standing orders NOT TO DO IT, GIs often used their rifle barrels as prybars.

This came to light as a result of analyzing repair requests and finding an unexplainably high number of bent barrels. The "solution" of standing orders not to do it, was, of course, not completely effective.

Colt's "solution" was the H-Bar configuration. H-bar is supposed to stand for "heavy barrel" but the H-bar barrel isn't a true heavy barrel profile. What Colt did was increase the barrel thickness (making it less likely to get bent) in front of the handguards. Underneath the handguards, all the way back to the upper receiver, the barrel kept the same contour it always had.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

You have a blow back action that has a functional forward assist??

(the charging handle does not count as a forward assist)

https://cmmg.com/forward-assist-adapter-kit-22arc

[44 AMP]

so, an adapter piece for a conversion kit, made to convert a standard CF AR rifle to be able to use the forward assist the gun was made with.

Not the same in my book as a blow back action designed from the ground up to be a blow back action, but close enough to answer my question.

[Screwball]

As mentioned earlier, I use a CMMG bolt in a Spikes dedicated upper. The block came with the bolt when I ordered it to swap my Spikes assembly.

In any event, my comment still stands…

.22 rimfire is dirty. The forward assist in that setup does keep the shooter shooting instead of clearing jams left/right.

[DaleA]

Thanks 44 AMP. Much appreciated.

[radom]

Here I like the forward ass deal, can close the bolt with out that loud clack when a deer is in range.

[davidsog]

It is hard to see the value of a FA in a rifle that gets pulled out of the safe to run a couple of hundred rounds thru it every so often.

However, When you are in the ORP or LCC performing a press check, it is essential.

It is also essential in prolonged firefights were multiple combat loads are used up without an opportunity to clean the rifle. I used it multiple times in a 43 hour continuous firefight and it kept me going until a lull allowed the CLP bottle to come out. Many times in my Army career, you could tap the FA when reloading and feel/see the bolt go into battery such that a misfire would have occurred without it.

It wasn't a feature on the rifle until after the Army gained experience with the rifle at the edges of its design operating parameters.

[tangolima]

Good point about press check. Now I recall having to use the FA myself for the same purpose.

I wonder how the Germans do it on their G3 or mp5, or the Brits on FAL.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[davidsog]

I wonder how the Germans do it on their G3 or mp5, or the Brits on FAL.

I think it has to do with the differences in European Military philosophy on Infantry employment vs US Doctrine at the time.

When those rifles were on the drawing board....

In European Armies the prevalent thinking was Officers control when the men lock and load much more tightly than US Doctrine. In US Doctrine, you lock and load when leaving the wire. Europe simply does not have the gun culture the United States has and most Europeans never held a weapon until they were in military service. Consequently much of these theories became a solution looking for a problem. It is just not that hard to teach gun safety. As far as weapon design it is kind of like the "cock on close vs cock on opening" debate when Military Bolt Action rifles became a thing. If your not familar, many military theorist thought the ROF increase and general filth of the modern battlefield could cause bolt action rifles to become so fouled that the soldier would be unable to unlock the action to cycle the bolt. Cock on Close was a way to mitigate this risk. World War I proved it was a solution looking for a problem as the pre war fears were found to be unjustified.

European Military doctrine, you lock and load upon command when the Officer believes enemy contract is imminent. That is why you see things taken to the extreme in no safeties at all on some of the French Military rifles such as the MAS 36. You can see this design philosophy with the Standard Infantry Rifles of the European Powers in World War II. None of them have a safety that can be operated by the firing hand with the weapon shouldered.
Only the US M1 Garand had such a safety.

It is also why when European Military small arms began to incorporate a manual safety, it was designed to be operated with the non-firing hand. That was to prevent Joe Snuffy from having an AD by accidently taking his weapon off safe. That is why both the FN-FAL and G3 are difficult to operate with the firing hand thumb. Snuffy was instructed to not take his weapon off safe without the express order from an Officer.

Were these concerns valid? Probably not and time has shifted European doctrine to be more standardized across NATO. There is even some validity to the thought as for example, the 7th ID during the Invasion of Panama got their bullets taken away just 5 days into the Invasion because their accident rate had surpassed the PDF's ability to create casualties rate. Live rounds were issued as needed per order of the Officers.

[rickyrick]

I don’t think anyone is asserting that there’s not a military or police use for the FA. Like mentioned above it’s for people that may need to use it when the gun has gotten too fouled to function properly or those who must roll in the mud and dirt.

With a recreational rifle, I see no “need” for the FA except for some SHTF fantasies that some people have.
If your rifle fails to go into battery on its own, you need to stop and investigate the situation.
I’m also not a proponent of riding the charging handle, i.e hunting; the round needs to be chambered long before quiet-time. Semiautomatic rifles should be chambered with the full force of the action.
Press checks, that’s a maybe. I feel that failure to strip and chamber a round is a malfunction, need to be investigated as well. I also feel the piece of mind is just as important, maybe even more important.
That being said, as a civilian:
Have I used the FA when an AR failed to fire? yup
Have I rode the the charging handle and then used the FA? Yup
Have I done a press check and used the FA? Yup