Why would you use rubber buckshot for home defense? - Page 3

highvel · March 26, 2011, 12:45 PM

Like I have said before, using deadly force is THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION YOU WILL EVER MAKE at least on earth anyway.

ANYONE who doesn't understand that, or realize how important that is,shouldn't be allowed around items that can inflict that force!

Macho has it's place, but it is far from consideration when you make a decision on whether you can shoot someone or not!

2damnold4this · March 26, 2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

the first round being less-than-lethal

A beanbag round is not "less-than-lethal." It's "less lethal."

ripnbst · March 26, 2011, 01:37 PM

Putting a less-than-lethal round into the shotgun could help you out in the event of legal proceedings following an incident.

Even if you have it in the tube, just to shuck it out, you could use that as a defense that while you never even shot it. You had the state of mind to consider the option of not ending someone's life from the point of making the decision to keep a gun in your home.

Then again as others have mentioned these situations have the potential to be highly dynamic and when seconds count racking the action a second time is racking the action a second time. Your call, I keep mine loaded to the hilt with the real deal.

TheKlawMan · March 26, 2011, 05:20 PM

ripnbst, Depending on your state's laws, using a less than lethal can backfire in the courtroom, where the jury is instructed that you are only justified in using deadly force if you used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against the danger. See California Crim Instruction 506 here http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/cri...im_juryins.pdf

Consider if you have the option of firing a bean bag round but you stop the intruder with 00 buck. You might end up having to convince a jury why the bean bag was not all that was reasonably necessary, but if you didn't have any no one would question the use of buck.

JNewell · March 26, 2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

A beanbag round is not "less-than-lethal." It's "less lethal."

Right you are...should be labeled "less likely to be lethal."

Murphy's gonna getcha coming and going on this one. Let the hammer down on one of those things and one of two things will happen: either (1) the attacker really was trying to kill you and isn't slowed down at all by your LL load and proceeds to accomplish his goal unimpeded, or (2) it didn't turn out to be a good deadly force shoot and you will fork over everything you own or ever will own the the perp and you'll get an extended chance to think about how much fun he's having with your property while you cool your jets in the state pen.

Stevie-Ray · March 26, 2011, 08:36 PM

I fired some once at a rubber buck. Just bounced off.

Not for me, thanks. I'll stick to good ol lead #4 buck. Barring that, 00

TheKlawMan · March 27, 2011, 01:50 PM

Of course it bounced off. Even a furinur knows rubber pellets are for rubber duckies.

Webleymkv · March 27, 2011, 04:47 PM

While I don't use rubber ammo of any kind nor do I plan to (I prefer #4 Buck in my HD shotgun), I think maybe I can play devil's advocate on this one. I can see three possible reasons that someone might consider rubber buckshot.

1. The person has an extremely difficult time grappling with the thought of taking a human life regardless of the circumstances. Said person loads the first shell in their shotgun with rubber buckshot in order to give an attacker every possible chance to give up before resorting to more lethal means of defense (such a person is likely to get a rude awakening if he or she has to find out just how lethal rubber buckshot can be).

2. I suppose it might be argued in a courtroom that if you shot an attacker with rubber buckshot and then had to progress to more lethal ammunition in order to end the attack that you exhausted every possible option before resorting to lethal force (yes, I know this is probably a somewhat weak defense but I am trying to play devil's advocate)

3. (This is the most legitimate use for rubber buckshot that I can think of) You live in a rural area and your HD shotgun serves double duty for chasing pesky critters like skunks, opossums, raccoon, coyotes, and stray dogs out of your yard. You don't want to have to kill these animals if you don't have to so you keep your shotgun loaded with a shell of rubber buckshot for use at fairly long distance to chase the critters away and the rest of the magazine with regular shells in case you're accosted by a two-legged animal (I suppose this might work, but a cheap BB gun or airsoft gun by the back door would seem to be a better solution).

Honestly, the problem I have with rubber buckshot is the same problem that I have with most other "non-lethal" self-defense tools and that is the fact that they can very easily be very lethal particularly in untrained hands. As was mentioned already, rubber buckshot was designed for a very specific purpose for LE and requires pretty intensive training to work as designed. Joe Sixpack or Suzy Homemaker isn't all that likely to have been trained in the proper use of such ammo and thus is fairly likely to unintentionally kill the goblin crawling through the window.

jackpine · March 27, 2011, 05:23 PM

Short answer: use a "less lethal" round and you will kill or maim the SOB. You will be charged with manslaughter and you will go to jail.

Firearms are not tools of modulating force. Col. Rex Applegate

Bucks Gun Shop · April 11, 2011, 07:54 PM

If I am going to pull the trigger -- I want them DEAD...

egor20 · April 11, 2011, 08:07 PM

Why would you use rubber buckshot for home defense?

When Gumby attacks, Pokeys gotta die also..... He's a witness

Terry A · April 11, 2011, 10:56 PM

"Why would you use rubber buckshot for home defense? " I never would.

There is no good reason to. If you need to brandish a firearm in your home, then something real serious is going on. Why take the chance that "rubber" will stop "whomever" from killing you? Does anyone think robbers, home invaders or other criminals are loading THEIR weapons with "rubber" bullets???

texasgrillchef · July 10, 2015, 11:58 AM

I would like to make several points in regards to using "Non-Lethal" ammo for the purpose of Personal protection of self, family and personal property.

1. Threats to your property or to your life don't always come from other humans. It also comes from wildlife. Now those living in major cities probably won't have this issue. Those living in the backcountry of say Texas, Alaska, Colorado, etc... DO have issues with wild animals, Rattle Snakes, Bears, Moose, Wolves, Coyotes, the list can go on. Actual studies have shown that various forms of non-lethal ammo can be & are effective in scaring away wild animals with little to no physical harm to the animal. Preventing a death of much needed and animal. Besides rubber bullets, Rubber shot, & there is pepper spray ammo, as well as flash bang ammo that creates a very very loud noise and bright flash of light. The Pepper spray ammo and Flash Bang Ammo have been shown to be really effective in scaring away bears. Especially when used in combination. I have personally used Rubber shot & Pepper Spray ammo to scare away Deer, and Coyotes here in Texas. I do have a problem with wild animals on my property in Texas.

2. In regards to potential lawsuits, (being sued) by a criminal whom you shot with non-lethal ammo. At least here in Texas, You could & can still be sued by the criminal even if you used lethal ammo and ended up only injuring him. In fact even if you did manage to kill the criminal, You could still be sued by the surviving family. Even if your successful in winning the case, It will still cost a big chunk of change to defend yourself in court. However, personally I would much rather be alive, and well in court defending myself, then be dead, or have my wife &/or kids killed or raped.

3. Long story short.... I have been shot with rubber shot before. It is NOT a fun experience. It's a very painful one. So yes, I suppose if I was a criminal, and got shot with rubber shot/bullets... I could just shoot to kill you anyways. However, I would suspect that MOST criminals, would flee and run after being shot with rubber shot/bullets. Especially if you fired off in quick succession 2-4 rounds of rubber shots/bullets. Being hit by Rubber shot, will stun the criminal long enough for you to reach for another weapon with lethal ammo if needed.
In addition rubber shot/bullets CAN be lethal at a close range. If I end up needing to actually use lethal force.... Then I would use it at close range right to the face. Problem solved.

I did a little research... I was unable to find any actual case accounts where a home defender used rubber shot/bullets against a criminal and the home defender was then killed by the invading criminal. All of the ones I found in Texas where someone defending themselves with rubber shot/bullets successfully subdued the criminal and as a result, the criminal was arrested.

Summary....

So is using non-lethal ammo a good idea or bad? IMHO that's like asking the question which is the best gun to use for self/home protection.

YOU as a gun owner should decide on your own, if for YOU in your situation if non-lethal ammo is right for you, and which type of non-lethal ammo to use.

Just like the best gun to use for home protection depends on the person using the gun, and what purpose & how they wish to use a gun. Why else do we have so many different guns to choose from as well as caliber of bullets etc...

Personally....
I have a 12 gage pump action shotgun, magazine loaded with alternating flash bang & pepper spray shells, and the last shell in the mag a rubber shot.
Another 12 gage semi-auto shotgun magazine loaded slugs when I am in Bear country. Otherwise it loaded with Rock Salt Buckshot.
I don't use rubber bullets in any of my pistols.

Anyways this is just my personal opinion... I still believe that ever situation is different. Non-Lethal Ammo ISN'T for everyone or for every situation either, as there is always an exception to every rule.

TexasGrillChef

**44 AMP** · July 11, 2015, 02:23 PM

Zombie thread, 4 years dead.
Old school: performs Voodoo exorcism
Night of the Living Dead school: shoots zombie in brain
either way, this one is done, back in the box, zombie.

Closed.

Feel free to start a new thread on the subject!

March 26, 2011, 12:45 PM	#51
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	Like I have said before, using deadly force is THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION YOU WILL EVER MAKE at least on earth anyway. ANYONE who doesn't understand that, or realize how important that is,shouldn't be allowed around items that can inflict that force! Macho has it's place, but it is far from consideration when you make a decision on whether you can shoot someone or not! __________________ Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.--Mark Twain "I have opinions of my own 'strong opinions' but I don't always agree with them."--George Bush Last edited by highvel; March 26, 2011 at 01:02 PM.

March 26, 2011, 08:36 PM	#56
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	I fired some once at a rubber buck. Just bounced off. Not for me, thanks. I'll stick to good ol lead #4 buck. Barring that, 00 __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

April 11, 2011, 07:54 PM	#60
Bucks Gun Shop Member Join Date: April 11, 2011 Posts: 75	If I am going to pull the trigger -- I want them DEAD... __________________ "Like" us on Facebook at Buck's Gun Shop for regular specials and other savings. www.Bucks-Gun-Shop.com [email protected]

April 11, 2011, 08:07 PM	#61
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,824	*Why would you use rubber buckshot for home defense?* When Gumby attacks, Pokeys gotta die also..... He's a witness __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

April 11, 2011, 10:56 PM	#62
Terry A Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Location: Washington, Pa Posts: 764	I wouldn't. "Why would you use rubber buckshot for home defense? " I never would. There is no good reason to. If you need to brandish a firearm in your home, then something real serious is going on. Why take the chance that "rubber" will stop "whomever" from killing you? Does anyone think robbers, home invaders or other criminals are loading THEIR weapons with "rubber" bullets??? __________________ 2 Thes 3:16 "Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! "

March 26, 2011, 01:37 PM	#53
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	Putting a less-than-lethal round into the shotgun could help you out in the event of legal proceedings following an incident. Even if you have it in the tube, just to shuck it out, you could use that as a defense that while you never even shot it. You had the state of mind to consider the option of not ending someone's life from the point of making the decision to keep a gun in your home. Then again as others have mentioned these situations have the potential to be highly dynamic and when seconds count racking the action a second time is racking the action a second time. Your call, I keep mine loaded to the hilt with the real deal.

March 26, 2011, 05:20 PM	#54
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	ripnbst, Depending on your state's laws, using a less than lethal can backfire in the courtroom, where the jury is instructed that you are only justified in using deadly force if you used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against the danger. See California Crim Instruction 506 here http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/cri...im_juryins.pdf Consider if you have the option of firing a bean bag round but you stop the intruder with 00 buck. You might end up having to convince a jury why the bean bag was not all that was reasonably necessary, but if you didn't have any no one would question the use of buck.

March 27, 2011, 01:50 PM	#57
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Of course it bounced off. Even a furinur knows rubber pellets are for rubber duckies.

March 27, 2011, 04:47 PM	#58
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	While I don't use rubber ammo of any kind nor do I plan to (I prefer #4 Buck in my HD shotgun), I think maybe I can play devil's advocate on this one. I can see three possible reasons that someone might consider rubber buckshot. 1. The person has an extremely difficult time grappling with the thought of taking a human life regardless of the circumstances. Said person loads the first shell in their shotgun with rubber buckshot in order to give an attacker every possible chance to give up before resorting to more lethal means of defense (such a person is likely to get a rude awakening if he or she has to find out just how lethal rubber buckshot can be). 2. I suppose it might be argued in a courtroom that if you shot an attacker with rubber buckshot and then had to progress to more lethal ammunition in order to end the attack that you exhausted every possible option before resorting to lethal force (yes, I know this is probably a somewhat weak defense but I am trying to play devil's advocate) 3. (This is the most legitimate use for rubber buckshot that I can think of) You live in a rural area and your HD shotgun serves double duty for chasing pesky critters like skunks, opossums, raccoon, coyotes, and stray dogs out of your yard. You don't want to have to kill these animals if you don't have to so you keep your shotgun loaded with a shell of rubber buckshot for use at fairly long distance to chase the critters away and the rest of the magazine with regular shells in case you're accosted by a two-legged animal (I suppose this might work, but a cheap BB gun or airsoft gun by the back door would seem to be a better solution). Honestly, the problem I have with rubber buckshot is the same problem that I have with most other "non-lethal" self-defense tools and that is the fact that they can very easily be very lethal particularly in untrained hands. As was mentioned already, rubber buckshot was designed for a very specific purpose for LE and requires pretty intensive training to work as designed. Joe Sixpack or Suzy Homemaker isn't all that likely to have been trained in the proper use of such ammo and thus is fairly likely to unintentionally kill the goblin crawling through the window.

March 27, 2011, 05:23 PM	#59
jackpine Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Posts: 351	Short answer: use a "less lethal" round and you will kill or maim the SOB. You will be charged with manslaughter and you will go to jail. Firearms are not tools of modulating force. Col. Rex Applegate

July 10, 2015, 11:58 AM	#63
texasgrillchef Junior Member Join Date: July 6, 2015 Posts: 1	I would like to make several points in regards to using "Non-Lethal" ammo for the purpose of Personal protection of self, family and personal property. 1. Threats to your property or to your life don't always come from other humans. It also comes from wildlife. Now those living in major cities probably won't have this issue. Those living in the backcountry of say Texas, Alaska, Colorado, etc... DO have issues with wild animals, Rattle Snakes, Bears, Moose, Wolves, Coyotes, the list can go on. Actual studies have shown that various forms of non-lethal ammo can be & are effective in scaring away wild animals with little to no physical harm to the animal. Preventing a death of much needed and animal. Besides rubber bullets, Rubber shot, & there is pepper spray ammo, as well as flash bang ammo that creates a very very loud noise and bright flash of light. The Pepper spray ammo and Flash Bang Ammo have been shown to be really effective in scaring away bears. Especially when used in combination. I have personally used Rubber shot & Pepper Spray ammo to scare away Deer, and Coyotes here in Texas. I do have a problem with wild animals on my property in Texas. 2. In regards to potential lawsuits, (being sued) by a criminal whom you shot with non-lethal ammo. At least here in Texas, You could & can still be sued by the criminal even if you used lethal ammo and ended up only injuring him. In fact even if you did manage to kill the criminal, You could still be sued by the surviving family. Even if your successful in winning the case, It will still cost a big chunk of change to defend yourself in court. However, personally I would much rather be alive, and well in court defending myself, then be dead, or have my wife &/or kids killed or raped. 3. Long story short.... I have been shot with rubber shot before. It is NOT a fun experience. It's a very painful one. So yes, I suppose if I was a criminal, and got shot with rubber shot/bullets... I could just shoot to kill you anyways. However, I would suspect that MOST criminals, would flee and run after being shot with rubber shot/bullets. Especially if you fired off in quick succession 2-4 rounds of rubber shots/bullets. Being hit by Rubber shot, will stun the criminal long enough for you to reach for another weapon with lethal ammo if needed. In addition rubber shot/bullets CAN be lethal at a close range. If I end up needing to actually use lethal force.... Then I would use it at close range right to the face. Problem solved. I did a little research... I was unable to find any actual case accounts where a home defender used rubber shot/bullets against a criminal and the home defender was then killed by the invading criminal. All of the ones I found in Texas where someone defending themselves with rubber shot/bullets successfully subdued the criminal and as a result, the criminal was arrested. Summary.... So is using non-lethal ammo a good idea or bad? IMHO that's like asking the question which is the best gun to use for self/home protection. YOU as a gun owner should decide on your own, if for YOU in your situation if non-lethal ammo is right for you, and which type of non-lethal ammo to use. Just like the best gun to use for home protection depends on the person using the gun, and what purpose & how they wish to use a gun. Why else do we have so many different guns to choose from as well as caliber of bullets etc... Personally.... I have a 12 gage pump action shotgun, magazine loaded with alternating flash bang & pepper spray shells, and the last shell in the mag a rubber shot. Another 12 gage semi-auto shotgun magazine loaded slugs when I am in Bear country. Otherwise it loaded with Rock Salt Buckshot. I don't use rubber bullets in any of my pistols. Anyways this is just my personal opinion... I still believe that ever situation is different. Non-Lethal Ammo ISN'T for everyone or for every situation either, as there is always an exception to every rule. TexasGrillChef

July 11, 2015, 02:23 PM	#64
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,871	Zombie thread, 4 years dead. Old school: performs Voodoo exorcism Night of the Living Dead school: shoots zombie in brain either way, this one is done, back in the box, zombie. Closed. Feel free to start a new thread on the subject! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.