Shooting a Springfield Model 1873

RiponP90 · January 17, 2016, 10:18 AM

So I have a beautiful Springfield Model 1873 that has been in the family for probably 70 some odd years now. The story behind it is that my grandfather went to a rummage sale once and bought it when he was 11 (I know right?) with the intent of turning it into a lamp. Thank God he didn't. It has been hanging over my entryway now for years.

My question is that do you think it would be right to take it to a gunsmith to have it looked over to see if it is safe to shoot? If it is do you think I should enjoy a part of history by putting a few 45-70 rounds through it or should I enjoy it from afar and preserve its beauty?

I'm not a C&R collector so I'm looking to you guys for advice that know more about this.

EDIT: Pictures

Tidewater_Kid · January 17, 2016, 12:31 PM

Pictures would help us to judge condition. You can have it checked by a gunsmith. Remington makes a load for these old rifles, but they use a jacketed bullet which is not good for the barrel. A few rounds will not hurt it and that's how I got my first brass to reload. I don't shoot anything in mine now but lead bullets and black powder. They are fun rifles to shoot and I think you would enjoy it.

TK

gtodan · January 17, 2016, 12:52 PM

By all means get it checked out and shoot it.

There is loaded ammo out there for it. Lead bullets, brass, blackpowder/GOEX.

I bought a handloader rig for mine. Can load rounds at the range.

I prefer the 600 grain lead bullets. The 405 grain was used in the carbine.

I read some test data when the rifle was first released. Used a thousand yard range setup on a beach on the east coast. Routinely shot 600 yards with it.

Send me a PM with an email and I will send you some links.

This thread is worthless without pics!

kilimanjaro · January 17, 2016, 12:56 PM

By all means take it to a competent gunsmith for inspection.

As far as firing it goes, get it looked at first. The smith may be able to supply you with a few light loads.

As an aside, your rifle is an antique. Treat it like one. Using commercial loads in them is alright, but consistent firing does work things loose or break parts, they may be expensive to locate and replace.

So do use light handloads. You can buy a Lee loader kit for about $25 and load up your own shells for a song.

T. O'Heir · January 17, 2016, 02:13 PM

Had an original TD Carbine about 35 years ago. Shot it without fuss in my Great BP Cartridge Experiment(no internet for research in those days. Not many books either.). Traded it to a buddy and he was shooting it with smokeless loads with no fuss.
"...The 405 grain was used in the carbine..." Yep. And the rifle. Absolutely not 70 grains of BP in a Carbine though. Carbines used 55 grains of BP.

RiponP90 · January 17, 2016, 04:41 PM

Sorry haha I should have uploaded pics! I'll update with pics soon! I wasn't thinking. I really do think it would be fun to shoot which is why I had to ask but I didn't want to be the guy that has an original coke bottle and opens it to drink it just for fun so to speak.

kilimanjaro · January 17, 2016, 05:34 PM

When you take it in for inspection, have the smith give it a good cleaning and lubrication, looks like it needs it. Appears to have a pin missing from the right hand sideplate, be sure to mention that to the smith.

Don't sand the wood or anything.

Wipe the metal down with a gun rag.

gyvel · January 17, 2016, 05:47 PM

While we're on the subject, my local pawn shop has an M1868 .50-70 trapdoor for sale. If anyone is interested, PM me and I will give you contact info.

RiponP90 · January 17, 2016, 06:06 PM

Don't tempt me haha. If only I had the money for that right now.

l.cutler · January 18, 2016, 05:41 AM

The hole in the lockplate is where the mainspring pivots, the spring pivot pin should be visible in the hole. Definitely have it looked at and see what is wrong, may be nothing, may need to be repaired.

RiponP90 · January 18, 2016, 02:28 PM

Thanks for the input guys. The shop is open tomorrow so I'll take it in then. It will probably take a week or two but I'll let you know what they say. If it is good to shoot I'll try to get a video and post it!

sgms · January 18, 2016, 09:35 PM

Check www.trapdoorcollector.com and go to the shooter page and do a bit of reading. some good info. there.

Slamfire · January 18, 2016, 09:56 PM

I don't have a picture of mine to show. As long as the action, barrel, are not rusted through, not been exposed to extreme heat, part numbers match up between breech block and barrel, a first order examination would indicate that it ought to be OK with black powder equivalent loads.

I ran a test of greased bullets to test the veracity of the US Army claims that grease pinches the bullet, dangerously raises pressures, and dangerously raises bolt thrust. I found all the claims to be totally unsupported and have concluded, the claims are false, are an example of Army incompetence, and a coverup of Army incompetence. This is the results of shooting my M1873 trapdoor with greased bullets. These 45/70 cases were heavily greased well below the bullet by dipping and twisting in a can of lubriplate AA130.

The first cartridge to be fired is in the left picture, and a greased, fired case is in the right. Notice how much grease is in the action after a number of these heavily greased rounds have been fired. Instead of grease pinching the bullet, it migrates back into the action. This is a primary claim by the US Army, that grease pinches the bullet and raises pressure. Grease may be incompressible, but it is not immovable, and it flows under pressure. Given the taper of the cartridge and the difference in thickness of the case, grease moves up the throat, and out the back of the action, showing that this Army claim is false and unsupportable in the real world. Grease also lubricates the bullet and I experienced zero bullet leading in this barrel with greased bullets.

A tray of fired, ungreased 45-70’s on right, greased fired 45-70 on left.

Ungreased on left, greased on right

I did not use blackpowder, I used AA5744, which is a powder the manufacture claims is safe, at these loads, in this blackpowder action. Accuracy with my loads was horrible. The bullets are not matched to the groove depth. The rifle shot way high at 100 yards, and after looking at ballistic tables, it should shoot way high at 100 yards with the original sight settings.

Code:

M1873 Springfield Trapdoor 1884 rebuild
							
27" sight radius 						
							
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"		
							
14 Aug  2014 T =  78 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	1302			 	 		
Std Dev =	11			 	 		
ES =	26			 	 		
High =	1315			 	 		
Low =	1289			 	 		
N =	5						
							
First round 15.5" high, rest, 19.5 to 23" high at 100 yards		
							
Ballistic calculator: 100 yd zero, 25" drop at 200 yds, 82" drop at 300 yds	
							
							
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"		
							
Heavily greased with Lubriplate 130A 				
							
14 Aug  2014 T =  78 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	1346			 	 		
Std Dev =	15			 	 		
ES =	38			 	 		
High =	1371			 	 		
Low =	1333			 	 		
N =	5						
							
At lowest rear sight setting, two bullets 22", one @ 24", one @ 26.5", one @ 30.15" 
at 100 yards

Do not ever shoot jacketed bullets in a 19th century barrel. The barrel steel, might not be steel, might be wrought iron, regardless, if it is steel, it is dead soft and jacketed loads will wash out the rifling.

Hawg · January 18, 2016, 10:02 PM

If it's a model 1873 do not shoot smokeless out of it. Only use black powder and lead bullets. If it's an 1884 it will handle smokeless ok but still needs lead bullets.

Slamfire · January 18, 2016, 10:10 PM

Quote:

If it's a model 1873 do not shoot smokeless out of it. Only use black powder and lead bullets. If it's an 1884 it will handle smokeless ok but still needs lead bullets.

That is an interesting claim. What is the difference in materials between an M1873 and a 1884 rebuild? Why did my action stay in one piece and why would a M1873 come apart?

gtodan · January 20, 2016, 08:07 PM

While at the gunsmith, have him slug the barrel. This will establish your bore diameter. Then you can purchase the right size boolets for your bore size. Clean and check the breech block assy and chamber for cracks also.

James K · January 20, 2016, 09:17 PM

I also question the 1873/1884 point. I have a fair amount of info on those rifles and I have seen nothing on any material or structural change that would seem relevant. The breechblock was changed earlier (c. 1877) but not, apparently, due to any weakness.

Frankford Arsenal began loading smokeless powder in the .45 rifle cartridge in early 1898 (30.5 grains of DuPont No. 4 - maybe it became the .45-30.5 instead of .45-70), but in 1899, it was ordered that no issue carbine cartridges were to be loaded with smokeless powder. I don't know the reason.

Certainly commercial .45-70 ammo was loaded with smokeless powder from the early years of the 20th century, and millions of such rounds have been fired in those rifles and carbines. I have not heard of any significant numbers of failures, or any attributed specifically to the use of proper loads of smokeless powder.

Jim

Jim Watson · January 20, 2016, 09:53 PM

I have read somewhere or another - maybe the Wolf book - that the armory smokeless load was very stout.

Hawg · January 20, 2016, 11:33 PM

I shot a lot of Winchester smokeless rounds out of my 84 carbine made in 89. Guess I was wrong. Sorry for any misinformation.

James K · January 21, 2016, 12:59 AM

That load gave a 500 grain bullet a m.v. of 1428 fps at 18,000 psi pressure. That was about 75 fps greater m.v. with 1000 psi LESS pressure than the black powder load. So it might have been seen (or rather felt) as a "stout"" load.

Jim

Old Stony · January 21, 2016, 04:53 AM

I've been shooting a smokeless load for years out of my carbine...shoots good and lots of fun. I use a 405 gr. lead with 34 gr. of Imr3031. While mild, it shoots good out of a couple of Sharps I have too with mild recoil and a guy can shoot them all day.

Jim Watson · January 21, 2016, 11:14 AM

Quote:

That load gave a 500 grain bullet a m.v. of 1428 fps at 18,000 psi pressure. That was about 75 fps greater m.v. with 1000 psi LESS pressure than the black powder load.

Need to find a carload of that powder stored in Alaska for the past 100 years.

SIGSHR · January 21, 2016, 03:56 PM

I firmly believe in black powder only out of those old guns, Colt didn't guarantee the SAA for smokeless until 1896. And that big cloud of white smoke brings back memories-San Juan Hill, 1898

Hawg · January 21, 2016, 04:30 PM

Quote:

And that big cloud of white smoke brings back memories-San Juan Hill, 1898

Remember that do ya?

Jim Watson · January 21, 2016, 04:47 PM

I think the main memory would be the 7mms cracking past and wondering why I was stuck with an antique.

January 17, 2016, 10:18 AM	#1
RiponP90 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2016 Posts: 190	Shooting a Springfield Model 1873 So I have a beautiful Springfield Model 1873 that has been in the family for probably 70 some odd years now. The story behind it is that my grandfather went to a rummage sale once and bought it when he was 11 (I know right?) with the intent of turning it into a lamp. Thank God he didn't. It has been hanging over my entryway now for years. My question is that do you think it would be right to take it to a gunsmith to have it looked over to see if it is safe to shoot? If it is do you think I should enjoy a part of history by putting a few 45-70 rounds through it or should I enjoy it from afar and preserve its beauty? I'm not a C&R collector so I'm looking to you guys for advice that know more about this. EDIT: Pictures __________________ Proud PS90 SBR and SPAS 12 Owner www.plinkersclub.com Your source for target, hunting and self defense ammunition. Last edited by RiponP90; January 17, 2016 at 05:19 PM.

January 17, 2016, 02:13 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Had an original TD Carbine about 35 years ago. Shot it without fuss in my Great BP Cartridge Experiment(no internet for research in those days. Not many books either.). Traded it to a buddy and he was shooting it with smokeless loads with no fuss. "...The 405 grain was used in the carbine..." Yep. And the rifle. Absolutely not 70 grains of BP in a Carbine though. Carbines used 55 grains of BP. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 17, 2016, 04:41 PM	#6
RiponP90 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2016 Posts: 190	Sorry haha I should have uploaded pics! I'll update with pics soon! I wasn't thinking. I really do think it would be fun to shoot which is why I had to ask but I didn't want to be the guy that has an original coke bottle and opens it to drink it just for fun so to speak. __________________ Proud PS90 SBR and SPAS 12 Owner www.plinkersclub.com Your source for target, hunting and self defense ammunition.

January 17, 2016, 05:47 PM	#8
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	While we're on the subject, my local pawn shop has an M1868 .50-70 trapdoor for sale. If anyone is interested, PM me and I will give you contact info. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

January 17, 2016, 06:06 PM	#9
RiponP90 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2016 Posts: 190	Don't tempt me haha. If only I had the money for that right now. __________________ Proud PS90 SBR and SPAS 12 Owner www.plinkersclub.com Your source for target, hunting and self defense ammunition.

January 17, 2016, 12:31 PM	#2
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	Pictures would help us to judge condition. You can have it checked by a gunsmith. Remington makes a load for these old rifles, but they use a jacketed bullet which is not good for the barrel. A few rounds will not hurt it and that's how I got my first brass to reload. I don't shoot anything in mine now but lead bullets and black powder. They are fun rifles to shoot and I think you would enjoy it. TK

January 17, 2016, 12:52 PM	#3
gtodan Member Join Date: September 1, 2004 Posts: 34	By all means get it checked out and shoot it. There is loaded ammo out there for it. Lead bullets, brass, blackpowder/GOEX. I bought a handloader rig for mine. Can load rounds at the range. I prefer the 600 grain lead bullets. The 405 grain was used in the carbine. I read some test data when the rifle was first released. Used a thousand yard range setup on a beach on the east coast. Routinely shot 600 yards with it. Send me a PM with an email and I will send you some links. This thread is worthless without pics!

January 17, 2016, 12:56 PM	#4
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	By all means take it to a competent gunsmith for inspection. As far as firing it goes, get it looked at first. The smith may be able to supply you with a few light loads. As an aside, your rifle is an antique. Treat it like one. Using commercial loads in them is alright, but consistent firing does work things loose or break parts, they may be expensive to locate and replace. So do use light handloads. You can buy a Lee loader kit for about $25 and load up your own shells for a song.

January 17, 2016, 05:34 PM	#7
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	When you take it in for inspection, have the smith give it a good cleaning and lubrication, looks like it needs it. Appears to have a pin missing from the right hand sideplate, be sure to mention that to the smith. Don't sand the wood or anything. Wipe the metal down with a gun rag.

January 18, 2016, 05:41 AM	#10
l.cutler Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2005 Posts: 275	The hole in the lockplate is where the mainspring pivots, the spring pivot pin should be visible in the hole. Definitely have it looked at and see what is wrong, may be nothing, may need to be repaired.

January 18, 2016, 02:28 PM	#11
RiponP90 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2016 Posts: 190	Thanks for the input guys. The shop is open tomorrow so I'll take it in then. It will probably take a week or two but I'll let you know what they say. If it is good to shoot I'll try to get a video and post it! __________________ Proud PS90 SBR and SPAS 12 Owner www.plinkersclub.com Your source for target, hunting and self defense ammunition.

January 18, 2016, 09:35 PM	#12
sgms Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Arizona or Ohio depending Posts: 1,021	Check www.trapdoorcollector.com and go to the shooter page and do a bit of reading. some good info. there.

January 18, 2016, 09:56 PM	#13
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I don't have a picture of mine to show. As long as the action, barrel, are not rusted through, not been exposed to extreme heat, part numbers match up between breech block and barrel, a first order examination would indicate that it ought to be OK with black powder equivalent loads. I ran a test of greased bullets to test the veracity of the US Army claims that grease pinches the bullet, dangerously raises pressures, and dangerously raises bolt thrust. I found all the claims to be totally unsupported and have concluded, the claims are false, are an example of Army incompetence, and a coverup of Army incompetence. This is the results of shooting my M1873 trapdoor with greased bullets. These 45/70 cases were heavily greased well below the bullet by dipping and twisting in a can of lubriplate AA130. The first cartridge to be fired is in the left picture, and a greased, fired case is in the right. Notice how much grease is in the action after a number of these heavily greased rounds have been fired. Instead of grease pinching the bullet, it migrates back into the action. This is a primary claim by the US Army, that grease pinches the bullet and raises pressure. Grease may be incompressible, but it is not immovable, and it flows under pressure. Given the taper of the cartridge and the difference in thickness of the case, grease moves up the throat, and out the back of the action, showing that this Army claim is false and unsupportable in the real world. Grease also lubricates the bullet and I experienced zero bullet leading in this barrel with greased bullets. A tray of fired, ungreased 45-70’s on right, greased fired 45-70 on left. Ungreased on left, greased on right I did not use blackpowder, I used AA5744, which is a powder the manufacture claims is safe, at these loads, in this blackpowder action. Accuracy with my loads was horrible. The bullets are not matched to the groove depth. The rifle shot way high at 100 yards, and after looking at ballistic tables, it should shoot way high at 100 yards with the original sight settings. Code: M1873 Springfield Trapdoor 1884 rebuild 27" sight radius 405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085" 14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F Ave Vel = 1302 Std Dev = 11 ES = 26 High = 1315 Low = 1289 N = 5 First round 15.5" high, rest, 19.5 to 23" high at 100 yards Ballistic calculator: 100 yd zero, 25" drop at 200 yds, 82" drop at 300 yds 405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085" Heavily greased with Lubriplate 130A 14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F Ave Vel = 1346 Std Dev = 15 ES = 38 High = 1371 Low = 1333 N = 5 At lowest rear sight setting, two bullets 22", one @ 24", one @ 26.5", one @ 30.15" at 100 yards Do not ever shoot jacketed bullets in a 19th century barrel. The barrel steel, might not be steel, might be wrought iron, regardless, if it is steel, it is dead soft and jacketed loads will wash out the rifling. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

January 18, 2016, 10:02 PM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	If it's a model 1873 do not shoot smokeless out of it. Only use black powder and lead bullets. If it's an 1884 it will handle smokeless ok but still needs lead bullets.

January 20, 2016, 08:07 PM	#16
gtodan Member Join Date: September 1, 2004 Posts: 34	While at the gunsmith, have him slug the barrel. This will establish your bore diameter. Then you can purchase the right size boolets for your bore size. Clean and check the breech block assy and chamber for cracks also.

January 20, 2016, 09:17 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I also question the 1873/1884 point. I have a fair amount of info on those rifles and I have seen nothing on any material or structural change that would seem relevant. The breechblock was changed earlier (c. 1877) but not, apparently, due to any weakness. Frankford Arsenal began loading smokeless powder in the .45 rifle cartridge in early 1898 (30.5 grains of DuPont No. 4 - maybe it became the .45-30.5 instead of .45-70), but in 1899, it was ordered that no issue carbine cartridges were to be loaded with smokeless powder. I don't know the reason. Certainly commercial .45-70 ammo was loaded with smokeless powder from the early years of the 20th century, and millions of such rounds have been fired in those rifles and carbines. I have not heard of any significant numbers of failures, or any attributed specifically to the use of proper loads of smokeless powder. Jim

January 20, 2016, 09:53 PM	#18
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	I have read somewhere or another - maybe the Wolf book - that the armory smokeless load was very stout.

January 20, 2016, 11:33 PM	#19
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I shot a lot of Winchester smokeless rounds out of my 84 carbine made in 89. Guess I was wrong. Sorry for any misinformation.

January 21, 2016, 12:59 AM	#20
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That load gave a 500 grain bullet a m.v. of 1428 fps at 18,000 psi pressure. That was about 75 fps greater m.v. with 1000 psi LESS pressure than the black powder load. So it might have been seen (or rather felt) as a "stout"" load. Jim

January 21, 2016, 04:53 AM	#21
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I've been shooting a smokeless load for years out of my carbine...shoots good and lots of fun. I use a 405 gr. lead with 34 gr. of Imr3031. While mild, it shoots good out of a couple of Sharps I have too with mild recoil and a guy can shoot them all day.

January 21, 2016, 03:56 PM	#23
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I firmly believe in black powder only out of those old guns, Colt didn't guarantee the SAA for smokeless until 1896. And that big cloud of white smoke brings back memories-San Juan Hill, 1898

January 21, 2016, 04:47 PM	#25
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	I think the main memory would be the 7mms cracking past and wondering why I was stuck with an antique.