Problem with bullet size?

maillemaker · February 16, 2011, 09:26 PM

OK, so last weekend I went and shot some of my reloads made using bullets I cast myself using the Lee 230 grain RN tumble groove mold.

I had several failures to extract. The case rim on the extracting cartridge would either catch on the case mouth of the next cartridge in the magazine, or, more usually, it would catch on the "bulge" in the case at the bottom of the seated bullet.

Today I received my Lee FCD and I have run all my cartridges through it. Most of them gave good resistance as they went through the die, telling me that they did need some sizing. Hopefully this will fix the "bulge" problem.

But then I got to looking at the case mouths. Now I've crimped everything to .468 - this is what my Winchester White Box factory ammo measures with 230 grain FMJ round nose bullets.

But I noticed that with the factory ammo there is very little step from the base of the bullet ogive to the OD of the case mouth. This is not surprising since, being a jacketed bullet, there is no shoulder.

But then I looked at the Oregon Trail laser-cast bullets I loaded. They have a much wider base of the bullet ogive diameter than the bullets I cast using the Lee mold. The Lee bullets and the Oregon Trail bullets both have a base of .452" diameter. But the Oregon Trail has a base of ogive that is .437", while my self-case Lee bullets have a base of ogive that is .420" in diameter. This means that the Oregon Trail bullets only have a shoulder step of .008", while my lee bullets have a shoulder step of .016"! When you factor in the case mouth diameter of .468, this means that the Oregon Trail bullets have a step of .016, while my Lee bullets have a step of .024".

Could this step be what is causing my extracted cases to hang up on the case mouths of bullets in the magazine?

Now a user here on this forum was kind enough to call me on the phone and said he had seen this exact same problem, and he felt that the problem was the extracted case rims were digging in on the soft lead of the top bullet in the magazine and slowing down enough to drag along the cartridge, catching on the case mouth and/or case bulge. His proposed solution is to alter the magazine feed lips to try and duck the top bullet down a hair so that the extracting round doesn't catch on it.

I'm going to test that theory if the Lee FCD doesn't solve the problem. But I wanted to know what you guys thought of the differences in shoulder height?

Write up with pictures here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...lems/sizes.htm

maillemaker · February 17, 2011, 11:24 AM

No one?

I think the shoulder on my Lee cast bullet is too big?

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...s/P1010001.JPG

maillemaker · February 17, 2011, 11:25 AM

For that matter, why do cast bullets have a shoulder at all? Why doesn't the bullet ogive base blend right to the .452 diameter of the base of the bullet?

Steve

brickeyee · February 17, 2011, 11:35 AM

Cast bullets are normally 0.001 larger than jacketed bullets.

It sounds like the alloy you are using is shrinking excessively.

Do you know its composition?

Pure lead needs some tin added usually to help fill out the mold.

If an extracted shell is catching on the next round in the magazine the magazine is letting putting the next round to high.

The slide should be holding the round down until the shell has ejected, then it starts to rise in front of the breech face as the slide continues back and no longer holds it down.

Is your ejector broken?

This is .45 ACP, correct?

maillemaker · February 17, 2011, 02:40 PM

Yes, it is .45 ACP.

I looked at the ejector last night, it looked fine to me. I will post some pictures of it.

The gun (Ruger P90) shoots factory ammo and Oregon Trace reloads just fine.

Steve

maillemaker · February 17, 2011, 04:49 PM

Also, I don't think I have a shrinkage problem. The bullets are supposed to measure .452 at the base, and they do.

The problem is the base diameter of the bullet ogive is .420. This is a difference of .032, which means there is a shoulder of .016" all around the base of the bullet nose. Put .01" of brass on top of that, and you have a shoulder around the bullet nose that stands proud .026".

Steve

bigwrench · February 17, 2011, 09:10 PM

sounds like your casting an SWC type bullet? The "shoulder on that bullet is designed to cut clean holes in paper targets, and the button nose on the SWC(semi wad cutter) is there to assist feeding in semi auto pistols. If you are cycling problems with this bullet try changing to the TC(truncated cone) or RN mould that is not a SWC.

hk33ka1 · February 17, 2011, 09:47 PM

There is a step on the Lee TL452-230-2R mold. I load mine unsized (.452-453") and use a taper crimp die (all Lee dies). I do NOT use my FCD anymore for this round. All rounds FCD or not have cycled fine in Glock 21 and Springfield 1911-A1.

maillemaker · February 18, 2011, 02:56 PM

I just received a reply from Lee.

They asked if I had tried seating the bullet slightly deeper in the case, so that when the case mouth was crimped it rolled over the shoulder of the bullet slightly, easing the transition from bullet nose to case mouth.

They warned that this might cause increased pressures from deeper seating, but I'm also worried about increased pressure by rolling the brass over the shoulder of the bullet.

What do you think?

This is for .45 ACP

Steve

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 18, 2011, 03:56 PM

You may need a different profile bullet.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b...php?entryID=29

DaleA · February 18, 2011, 04:14 PM

I kind of like the idea of the feed lips on the magazine giving you the solution to your problem.

That said, since your Ruger P90 runs fine on factory ammo it would be a little frustrating to think you have to mess around with the magazines to make it shoot your round nose cast bullets.

The Lee folk must know the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth. I’m assuming they think just a little tiny bit of an increase in the crimp might solve the problem without creating headspace problems. Although you say you’ve only been reloading a short time, your other posts (IMhO) demonstrate you know what you’re doing and that you know the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth. Did the Lee folk think getting their factory crimp die would solve the problem?

FWIW, I’ve shot lots of SWC lead through my 1911 style .45 ACP without problems. I use RCBS dies and a taper crimp.

Please keep us informed. I’d be really interested in how this plays out.

maillemaker · February 18, 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

You may need a different profile bullet.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b...php?entryID=29

I considered that, especially since the Oregon Trail bullets I purchased seem to work much better - and this is not surprising now since their shoulder is half the height I am getting out of the Lee mold.

Those Lyman molds are expensive, though! Also, is that mold for use with tumble lube, or would I have to have a sizer/luber setup? I think the Lee Alox Lube says it works on all lead bullets but works best on those with tumble lube grooves.

Quote:

I kind of like the idea of the feed lips on the magazine giving you the solution to your problem.

That said, since your Ruger P90 runs fine on factory ammo it would be a little frustrating to think you have to mess around with the magazines to make it shoot your round nose cast bullets.

The Lee folks did not recommend modifying the firearm to accommodate the bullets.

Quote:

Did the Lee folk think getting their factory crimp die would solve the problem?

They did not comment on that. I just mentioned in my email that I was getting some hang-ups on the bulge, and that I had bought the FCD, and I ran all my ammo through it. They did not comment on that in their response, probably since that avenue has now been explored.

Quote:

Please keep us informed. I’d be really interested in how this plays out.

Will do. I'm going to the range again this weekend and will see what affect, if any, the FCD had on the ammo.

Steve

February 16, 2011, 09:26 PM	#1
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Problem with bullet size? OK, so last weekend I went and shot some of my reloads made using bullets I cast myself using the Lee 230 grain RN tumble groove mold. I had several failures to extract. The case rim on the extracting cartridge would either catch on the case mouth of the next cartridge in the magazine, or, more usually, it would catch on the "bulge" in the case at the bottom of the seated bullet. Today I received my Lee FCD and I have run all my cartridges through it. Most of them gave good resistance as they went through the die, telling me that they did need some sizing. Hopefully this will fix the "bulge" problem. But then I got to looking at the case mouths. Now I've crimped everything to .468 - this is what my Winchester White Box factory ammo measures with 230 grain FMJ round nose bullets. But I noticed that with the factory ammo there is very little step from the base of the bullet ogive to the OD of the case mouth. This is not surprising since, being a jacketed bullet, there is no shoulder. But then I looked at the Oregon Trail laser-cast bullets I loaded. They have a much wider base of the bullet ogive diameter than the bullets I cast using the Lee mold. The Lee bullets and the Oregon Trail bullets both have a base of .452" diameter. But the Oregon Trail has a base of ogive that is .437", while my self-case Lee bullets have a base of ogive that is .420" in diameter. This means that the Oregon Trail bullets only have a shoulder step of .008", while my lee bullets have a shoulder step of .016"! When you factor in the case mouth diameter of .468, this means that the Oregon Trail bullets have a step of .016, while my Lee bullets have a step of .024". Could this step be what is causing my extracted cases to hang up on the case mouths of bullets in the magazine? Now a user here on this forum was kind enough to call me on the phone and said he had seen this exact same problem, and he felt that the problem was the extracted case rims were digging in on the soft lead of the top bullet in the magazine and slowing down enough to drag along the cartridge, catching on the case mouth and/or case bulge. His proposed solution is to alter the magazine feed lips to try and duck the top bullet down a hair so that the extracting round doesn't catch on it. I'm going to test that theory if the Lee FCD doesn't solve the problem. But I wanted to know what you guys thought of the differences in shoulder height? Write up with pictures here: http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...lems/sizes.htm

February 18, 2011, 03:56 PM	#10
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	You may need a different profile bullet. http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b...php?entryID=29 __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

February 17, 2011, 11:24 AM	#2
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	No one? I think the shoulder on my Lee cast bullet is too big? http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...s/P1010001.JPG

February 17, 2011, 11:25 AM	#3
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	For that matter, why do cast bullets have a shoulder at all? Why doesn't the bullet ogive base blend right to the .452 diameter of the base of the bullet? Steve

February 17, 2011, 11:35 AM	#4
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Cast bullets are normally 0.001 larger than jacketed bullets. It sounds like the alloy you are using is shrinking excessively. Do you know its composition? Pure lead needs some tin added usually to help fill out the mold. If an extracted shell is catching on the next round in the magazine the magazine is letting putting the next round to high. The slide should be holding the round down until the shell has ejected, then it starts to rise in front of the breech face as the slide continues back and no longer holds it down. Is your ejector broken? This is .45 ACP, correct?

February 17, 2011, 02:40 PM	#5
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Yes, it is .45 ACP. I looked at the ejector last night, it looked fine to me. I will post some pictures of it. The gun (Ruger P90) shoots factory ammo and Oregon Trace reloads just fine. Steve

February 17, 2011, 04:49 PM	#6
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Also, I don't think I have a shrinkage problem. The bullets are supposed to measure .452 at the base, and they do. The problem is the base diameter of the bullet ogive is .420. This is a difference of .032, which means there is a shoulder of .016" all around the base of the bullet nose. Put .01" of brass on top of that, and you have a shoulder around the bullet nose that stands proud .026". Steve

February 17, 2011, 09:10 PM	#7
bigwrench Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Location: foot of the uintas Posts: 148	sounds like your casting an SWC type bullet? The "shoulder on that bullet is designed to cut clean holes in paper targets, and the button nose on the SWC(semi wad cutter) is there to assist feeding in semi auto pistols. If you are cycling problems with this bullet try changing to the TC(truncated cone) or RN mould that is not a SWC.

February 17, 2011, 09:47 PM	#8
hk33ka1 Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2010 Posts: 275	There is a step on the Lee TL452-230-2R mold. I load mine unsized (.452-453") and use a taper crimp die (all Lee dies). I do NOT use my FCD anymore for this round. All rounds FCD or not have cycled fine in Glock 21 and Springfield 1911-A1.

February 18, 2011, 02:56 PM	#9
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I just received a reply from Lee. They asked if I had tried seating the bullet slightly deeper in the case, so that when the case mouth was crimped it rolled over the shoulder of the bullet slightly, easing the transition from bullet nose to case mouth. They warned that this might cause increased pressures from deeper seating, but I'm also worried about increased pressure by rolling the brass over the shoulder of the bullet. What do you think? This is for .45 ACP Steve

February 18, 2011, 04:14 PM	#11
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,317	I kind of like the idea of the feed lips on the magazine giving you the solution to your problem. That said, since your Ruger P90 runs fine on factory ammo it would be a little frustrating to think you have to mess around with the magazines to make it shoot your round nose cast bullets. The Lee folk must know the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth. I’m assuming they think just a little tiny bit of an increase in the crimp might solve the problem without creating headspace problems. Although you say you’ve only been reloading a short time, your other posts (IMhO) demonstrate you know what you’re doing and that you know the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth. Did the Lee folk think getting their factory crimp die would solve the problem? FWIW, I’ve shot lots of SWC lead through my 1911 style .45 ACP without problems. I use RCBS dies and a taper crimp. Please keep us informed. I’d be really interested in how this plays out.