1" groups at 250yds. - Page 2

floydster · November 17, 2010, 04:15 PM

This is a hilarious thread--- by the way, Special Forces are looking for a few good snipers, some of you guys could qualify for sure

higgite · November 17, 2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

I live near Seattle and shoot at a range that opens at noon and usually has at least 6mph wind.

He lives in rural Montana. He gets up at sunrise and if there is no wind at all, he goes shooting.

The best group I have got is .45" 5 shots 100 meters.
The best group he has got is .3" 5 shots 100 yards.

Well now, there's your problem. You're sleeping too late and not standing close enough.

SL1 · November 17, 2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

by the way, Special Forces are looking for a few good snipers, some of you guys could qualify for sure.

Well, maybe not, since groups tend to enlarge when the targets are shooting back! And, it doesn't help much when the "bench" is the deck of a boat at sea, or a pile of gravel in Afghanistan.

I have a LOT of admiration for Special Forces snipers!

SL1

Doodlebugger45 · November 18, 2010, 01:40 AM

Quote:

This is a hilarious thread--- by the way, Special Forces are looking for a few good snipers, some of you guys could qualify for sure

Yeah... well you know how it goes... between all the important stuff I do like reading the newspaper, buying groceries, pondering politics, and watching TV, I really don't think I have time enough to be a sniper in Afghanistan most days. I'll call the army guys though if I think I have some free time to help them out one of these months if I'm not too busy saving the world from other threats.

Ackley · February 15, 2011, 12:18 PM

Hi guys
Iam from the UK and have joined this site to appologise for Robbobsam's behaviour,as this link has been posted on one of our UK shooting forums.
Fortunatley most UK shooters/hunters are not like this guy,just a little background into him,the guy came onto out sites only a few months ago when he first got his centre fire rifle,what he wasnt going to do with it wasnt worth talking about,he has gone from site to site asking the same old questions and posting his amazing stories,unfortunatley he upset most people and got banned from just about every popular UK shooting forum.
Anyway thats just about sums him up,I think hes harmless but gets a little over excited.
Theres some pretty good UK sites if you guys feel the need for a change or a little entertainment espeically the stalking directory,but what ever you do,dont talk about long range deer shooting on that forum
they think anything past 200 yards is not acceptable

mattlago · February 15, 2011, 02:32 PM

No need to apologize for him.

I shoot about the same accuracy at the same distance with my 1911 on the regular. Of course, unlike that guy, I will admit that I use a benchrest if I am using the factory iron sights.

Anything past 300 yards and I grab my glock

Rifleman1776 · February 15, 2011, 04:08 PM

I'm also wondering how many shots in that group.
But, mostly I am amazed by a group that small at that range with a tiny 80 gr. pill. Looking at it crosseyed could blow it off course. I lived three years in the U.K. and know they have wind. Very amazing.

highvel · February 15, 2011, 09:35 PM

I have shot many .2" one shot groups with my .204 at 500 yards.

Brian Pfleuger · February 15, 2011, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highvel

I have shot many .2" one shot groups with my .204 at 500 yards.

Technically, the standard for measuring groups is to subtract one bullet diameter from the largest measurement of the group.... that means all one shot groups are always an unbeatable "0" inches!

However, it's always much more impressive if you report at least 3 shots. In order to guarantee an impressive number, simply continuing shooting until you have at least 3-5 shots in a very small area... for instance, you might fire 20, 25 shots at 500 yards. There's a good chance that 3 of them will be near touching. Simply discount the rest as "flyers", and you've got an group in the 1/4, maybe 1/2", realm at 500 yards!

**Unclenick** · February 16, 2011, 10:52 AM

I think that's why he had the grinning smile at the end of that one-shot gag line.

I confess I am a little bit puzzled by all the skepticism over the 100 yard groups. In the 80's I shot many 3/8" CTC five shot groups from my Remington 600 in .222 Rem at 100 yards just using a Lee loader and its scoop powder measure with IMR4198 and Hornady 50 grain flat base soft points. It sported an early inexpensive 3×9 Weaver scope that sometimes took a bit of straining to see through (but my eyes were younger then). For whatever reason of good fortune, that scoop load just turned out to be right on a sweet spot for that rifle. Anyway, It's good grouping, but it's just not miraculous to my mind. Benchrest record are in the ballpark of five times smaller.

1" at 250 is tougher and is better shooting. That number appears to be a simple mathematical extrapolation of 100 yard moa to 250 yards, which, we all know, is not how it normally works out. Bryan Litz points out that perturbations of the flight that occur at the muzzle, such as bullet jump, will affect POI in proportion to the transit times to different ranges. For the flat base Berger 80 grain varmint bullet with 0.301 G1 BC, this suggests a 0.4" 100 yard group should grow to about 1.1" at 250 if fired in still air conditions with perfectly identical loads and firing conditions.

Of course, real loads and conditions have additional problems as range increases. Looking at the difference between real transit time and transit time in a vacuum, with the above BC, wind will have 6.8 times the effect on the 250 yard shot that it does at 100, and not just 2.5 times as the range ratio would suggest. A 20 fps muzzle velocity variation that only has about 0.03" of effect on vertical POI at 100 yards will cause 0.28" of vertical stringing at 250 yards with the Berger BC and the 3100 fps MV given.

Without knowing wind conditions and having no chronograph data for the gun, you can't really estimate what a realistic difference in the groups would be. I'll guess, in still air, I would expect a group of 0.4" at 100 yards to be in the ballpark of of 1.4" in still air at 250 yards, assuming the MV extreme spread is 20 fps.

GWS · February 16, 2011, 11:27 AM

Maybe his bullet went in sideways!

Ackley · February 16, 2011, 01:57 PM

heres 2 4 shot groups i shot at 500 yards fireingforming to AI using an 80gr fowler
the group on the right was shot before adjusting for wind,both groups were 1.5 inch

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 16, 2011, 02:21 PM

Nice groups.

**Mal H** · February 16, 2011, 04:14 PM

Fabulous groups, almost too good to believe. 500 yards with an 80 grain bullet - really? Which rifle and scope are you using? Which AI caliber?

However, I have to question your group measuring method. The shot at the lower left is clearly further from the right hole than the one you are using to measure the 1.5" group. I estimate that the group is 1.8", not 1.5". Nonetheless, both group sizes are, again, fabulous.

Ackley · February 16, 2011, 04:58 PM

Hi mate
no the mesurement was correct,as I tried all ways,
the rifle is a 243 AI,270 tight neck built by Nesika 12 twist 25 inch barrel,the scope is a 5.5-22x56 Nightforce (I have a matching rifle in 7mm WSM)
the 80gr Fowlers I used were just thrown togeather to finish fireforming new brass,I use at the moment 74gr precission ballistic bullets running at 3774 FPS quite nice at 600 yards
I would like to get hold of some more 80gr Fowlers but he wont send them to the UK as it seems your goverment is trying to close the doors on exporting by charging stupid money for export permits

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 16, 2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

The shot at the lower left is clearly further from the right hole than the one you are using to measure the 1.5" group.

Unfortunately, this is right. Fortunately, those are still great groups. Measure from the lower left hole to the farthest right hole and see what that measurement is.

Ackley · February 16, 2011, 05:19 PM

matters not mate,there just a couple of groups I shot,Iam sure with a really good man behind the butt it would do better
anyway heres couple of pic of my rifles if anyone is interested

Brian Pfleuger · February 16, 2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal H

The shot at the lower left is clearly further from the right hole than the one you are using to measure the 1.5" group. I estimate that the group is 1.8", not 1.5". Nonetheless, both group sizes are, again, fabulous.

Yes indeed. I measure OP indicated group as 2.43", indicating a scale of 1.589:1. The distance to the lower left hole measures approximately 2.885 inches, indicating a group size of 1.81"

**Unclenick** · February 18, 2011, 01:33 PM

Ackley,

I resolved the issue with On-Target which is free online download. It automatically finds the two most distant holes and marks them with a line between them. I used the caliper jaws to set the scale to match the caliper readout. It gives 1.837", but that is still excellent shooting.

The black circle and short line from the center of the target mark the groups mean center (where the sights are actually putting the group). Not enough error to matter there.

langenc · February 18, 2011, 02:39 PM

One might ask-who measured the 250 yards??

Around here many 250-300 yard deer shots work out to be about 120 yards.

**44 AMP** · February 18, 2011, 02:41 PM

But don't proove anything to the sceptic. After all, we have to take you at your word that you fired them at xxx range, now don't we?

I've got a nice two hole three shot group fired with a Ruger N0.3 .45-70 and a 2.5x post/crosswire Weaver scope. I actually did it at 100 yds, from a bench. I'm real happy with that group, because usually I can only shoot that well at 50yds. But if I posted it and said I did it at 300yds, well, its my word against yours, and I was there!

Claim anything you want, its the Internet, after all. I'll believe what I see happen in front of me, or info from people I know, and trust. (not always the same thing

)

Reagan said "trust, but verify", and it works for me.

DaleA · February 18, 2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

One might ask-who measured the 250 yards??

Not 250 yards, langenc. This was at 500 yards!

(At least if you're referring to Ackley and not the original poster.)

**Unclenick** · February 18, 2011, 05:07 PM

250 refers to the thread title and the OP.

Ackley · February 19, 2011, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Ackley,

I resolved the issue with On-Target which is free online download. It automatically finds the two most distant holes and marks them with a line between them. I used the caliper jaws to set the scale to match the caliper readout. It gives 1.837", but that is still excellent shooting.

The black circle and short line from the center of the target mark the groups mean center (where the sights are actually putting the group). Not enough error to matter there.

thanks for that,I will have to use that programme for future measurements,could you kindly measure the other group to the right hand side please

**JohnKSa** · February 19, 2011, 05:28 AM

The group to the right measures about 1.53 inches.

February 15, 2011, 09:35 PM	#33
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	I have shot many .2" one shot groups with my .204 at 500 yards. __________________ Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.--Mark Twain "I have opinions of my own 'strong opinions' but I don't always agree with them."--George Bush

February 16, 2011, 10:52 AM	#35
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I think that's why he had the grinning smile at the end of that one-shot gag line. I confess I am a little bit puzzled by all the skepticism over the 100 yard groups. In the 80's I shot many 3/8" CTC five shot groups from my Remington 600 in .222 Rem at 100 yards just using a Lee loader and its scoop powder measure with IMR4198 and Hornady 50 grain flat base soft points. It sported an early inexpensive 3×9 Weaver scope that sometimes took a bit of straining to see through (but my eyes were younger then). For whatever reason of good fortune, that scoop load just turned out to be right on a sweet spot for that rifle. Anyway, It's good grouping, but it's just not miraculous to my mind. Benchrest record are in the ballpark of five times smaller. 1" at 250 is tougher and is better shooting. That number appears to be a simple mathematical extrapolation of 100 yard moa to 250 yards, which, we all know, is not how it normally works out. Bryan Litz points out that perturbations of the flight that occur at the muzzle, such as bullet jump, will affect POI in proportion to the transit times to different ranges. For the flat base Berger 80 grain varmint bullet with 0.301 G1 BC, this suggests a 0.4" 100 yard group should grow to about 1.1" at 250 if fired in still air conditions with perfectly identical loads and firing conditions. Of course, real loads and conditions have additional problems as range increases. Looking at the difference between real transit time and transit time in a vacuum, with the above BC, wind will have 6.8 times the effect on the 250 yard shot that it does at 100, and not just 2.5 times as the range ratio would suggest. A 20 fps muzzle velocity variation that only has about 0.03" of effect on vertical POI at 100 yards will cause 0.28" of vertical stringing at 250 yards with the Berger BC and the 3100 fps MV given. Without knowing wind conditions and having no chronograph data for the gun, you can't really estimate what a realistic difference in the groups would be. I'll guess, in still air, I would expect a group of 0.4" at 100 yards to be in the ballpark of of 1.4" in still air at 250 yards, assuming the MV extreme spread is 20 fps. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; February 16, 2011 at 12:31 PM.

February 16, 2011, 02:21 PM	#38
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	Nice groups. __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

February 16, 2011, 04:58 PM	#40
Ackley Junior Member Join Date: February 15, 2011 Posts: 10	Hi mate no the mesurement was correct,as I tried all ways, the rifle is a 243 AI,270 tight neck built by Nesika 12 twist 25 inch barrel,the scope is a 5.5-22x56 Nightforce (I have a matching rifle in 7mm WSM) the 80gr Fowlers I used were just thrown togeather to finish fireforming new brass,I use at the moment 74gr precission ballistic bullets running at 3774 FPS quite nice at 600 yards I would like to get hold of some more 80gr Fowlers but he wont send them to the UK as it seems your goverment is trying to close the doors on exporting by charging stupid money for export permits Last edited by Ackley; February 16, 2011 at 05:12 PM.

February 18, 2011, 01:33 PM	#44
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Ackley, I resolved the issue with On-Target which is free online download. It automatically finds the two most distant holes and marks them with a line between them. I used the caliper jaws to set the scale to match the caliper readout. It gives 1.837", but that is still excellent shooting. The black circle and short line from the center of the target mark the groups mean center (where the sights are actually putting the group). Not enough error to matter there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; February 18, 2011 at 05:10 PM.

November 17, 2010, 04:15 PM	#26
floydster Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2008 Posts: 472	This is a hilarious thread--- by the way, Special Forces are looking for a few good snipers, some of you guys could qualify for sure

February 15, 2011, 12:18 PM	#30
Ackley Junior Member Join Date: February 15, 2011 Posts: 10	Hi guys Iam from the UK and have joined this site to appologise for Robbobsam's behaviour,as this link has been posted on one of our UK shooting forums. Fortunatley most UK shooters/hunters are not like this guy,just a little background into him,the guy came onto out sites only a few months ago when he first got his centre fire rifle,what he wasnt going to do with it wasnt worth talking about,he has gone from site to site asking the same old questions and posting his amazing stories,unfortunatley he upset most people and got banned from just about every popular UK shooting forum. Anyway thats just about sums him up,I think hes harmless but gets a little over excited. Theres some pretty good UK sites if you guys feel the need for a change or a little entertainment espeically the stalking directory,but what ever you do,dont talk about long range deer shooting on that forum they think anything past 200 yards is not acceptable

February 15, 2011, 02:32 PM	#31
mattlago Member Join Date: February 8, 2011 Posts: 55	No need to apologize for him. I shoot about the same accuracy at the same distance with my 1911 on the regular. Of course, unlike that guy, I will admit that I use a benchrest if I am using the factory iron sights. Anything past 300 yards and I grab my glock

February 15, 2011, 04:08 PM	#32
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	I'm also wondering how many shots in that group. But, mostly I am amazed by a group that small at that range with a tiny 80 gr. pill. Looking at it crosseyed could blow it off course. I lived three years in the U.K. and know they have wind. Very amazing.

February 16, 2011, 11:27 AM	#36
GWS Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: New Mexico Posts: 688	Maybe his bullet went in sideways!

February 16, 2011, 01:57 PM	#37
Ackley Junior Member Join Date: February 15, 2011 Posts: 10	heres 2 4 shot groups i shot at 500 yards fireingforming to AI using an 80gr fowler the group on the right was shot before adjusting for wind,both groups were 1.5 inch

February 16, 2011, 04:14 PM	#39
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Fabulous groups, almost too good to believe. 500 yards with an 80 grain bullet - really? Which rifle and scope are you using? Which AI caliber? However, I have to question your group measuring method. The shot at the lower left is clearly further from the right hole than the one you are using to measure the 1.5" group. I estimate that the group is 1.8", not 1.5". Nonetheless, both group sizes are, again, fabulous.

February 16, 2011, 05:19 PM	#42
Ackley Junior Member Join Date: February 15, 2011 Posts: 10	matters not mate,there just a couple of groups I shot,Iam sure with a really good man behind the butt it would do better anyway heres couple of pic of my rifles if anyone is interested

February 18, 2011, 02:39 PM	#45
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	One might ask-who measured the 250 yards?? Around here many 250-300 yard deer shots work out to be about 120 yards.

February 18, 2011, 02:41 PM	#46
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,871	Nice groups on paper are nice groups.... But don't proove anything to the sceptic. After all, we have to take you at your word that you fired them at xxx range, now don't we? I've got a nice two hole three shot group fired with a Ruger N0.3 .45-70 and a 2.5x post/crosswire Weaver scope. I actually did it at 100 yds, from a bench. I'm real happy with that group, because usually I can only shoot that well at 50yds. But if I posted it and said I did it at 300yds, well, its my word against yours, and I was there! Claim anything you want, its the Internet, after all. I'll believe what I see happen in front of me, or info from people I know, and trust. (not always the same thing) Reagan said "trust, but verify", and it works for me. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 18, 2011, 05:07 PM	#48
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	250 refers to the thread title and the OP. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 19, 2011, 05:28 AM	#50
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,005	The group to the right measures about 1.53 inches. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?