Montana Bullet Works load data

[ciwsguy]

Wondering if anyone has tried hand-loading Montana Bullet Works 44 Magnum 255 grain Keith style gas check bullets. I’m using IMR 4227 powder. No loading manual I have seen cite this particular bullet. There is data for 240 grain and 265 grain jacketed bullets, but nothing on 255 grain Keith style GC semi-wad cutters. The bullets are significantly longer than the 240 grain semi-wadcutters I normally use. Has anyone else loaded these MBW bullets?
I’m starting at 19 grains of 4227 and loading to 1.65 inches COL. putting more powder into the case than that may be compressing the powder.
Wondering.....

[HiBC]

I'm doing this off the top of my head,forgive me if its not perfect.
Odds are a 255 gr Keith SWC GC fell out of a Lyman 429421 mold. Or similar.
Lyman prints,or did print,a Lyman Cast Bullet Reloading Guide.or some similar title.
Suppose that might start you on a good path? Good luck.

Update: Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition.
You get to decide where you spend your money. From Lyman,its about $29
from Amazon,about $20 + shipping.

BassPro, Cabelas,Midway,Brownells,etc.etc all sell publications and likely list them. Maybe someone will even have one in stock.

You might also look to "Loadbooks" These are typically old data,but they are a cartridge specific booklet that is a compilation of data printed in other manuals.

In other words,the 44 Magnum Loadbook will have the 44 Magnum pages from Hogdon,Speer,Lyman,etc gathered all in one book. It won't be the latest and greatest...It might be 15 years old,maybe more.

You might find good info at the Hogdon Powder website.

Those bullets work fine in revolvers. If you are going to feed them to a lever action,you may have troubles with the extra length. Its been 30 years or so,but as I recall,the bullet snags the chamber mouth and won't go in.

At the same time,another round has fed from the tubular magazine to the lifters,so you have sort of a double feed.

I've watched a number of attempted "clears." One left a fingernail in the loading gate. The pokers and prodders often create little scratches in the bluing .

What is a bit of a pain but you can clear the jam is removing the tubular mag cap near the muzzle. IF you have just the right screwdriver.

For full blown max power 44 Magnum loads with that bullet,I use H-110 or by another name Win 296. It has a very narrow range between "Start" and "Max" .Its NOT flexible for reduced loads.

I'd expect Unique and 2400 to give you a more flexible range of useful but not quite so rip snorting loads.

Let the Hogdon site be your guide.

[ciwsguy]

I set the bullet relatively deep into the case, past the crimp groove because at the crimp groove appeared to be way too long for the lever gun. While set to the short length, it cycles just fine in the Marlin. Tried it several times so I think I’ll give this a try.

[TJB101]

I have this filed away if it helps … shows the bullet denoted above

[Jim Watson]

Lyman 49 shows #429244 which is the Montana 255 gr gas check.
19 gr IMR 4227 is a bit under the starting load but is probably a good idea since you are deep seating it to get it to feed in a lever action.

By the way, I don't care what they call it, Elmer Keith did not care for gas check revolver bullets.

[HiBC]

With straight wall pistol cartridges like the 44 Magnum.Using the crimp groove for a good crimp can be important.
Here are two good reasons.
The rounds stack nose to tail in the tube mag. Under recoil,there is quite a bit of force round to round trying to "adjust" your seating depth.

Then,particularly in a revolver, the crimp is necessary for good ignition.

When the primer fires,it can push an uncrimped bullet out of the case.The cylinder chambers will let a bullet easily pass,then it jumps through the cylinder gap into the forcing cone.
The cylinder gap lets the heat and pressure of the primer leak out.

You can solve problem #2 by just rolling a crimp over the SWC shoulder but problem #1 can deep seat your bullets,raising pressure.

A third issue crimping helps to prevent is recoil inertially pulling your bullets.

[gwpercle]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition
44 magnum - page 275 - Handguns
Lyman #429244
255 grain Gas Check SWC
data is on page 275 , upper left , data for 13 different powders are listed .

IMR-4227
Starting load - 20.2 grains @ 903 fps / Max. load - 24.0 + grains @ 1135 fps

+ Indicates a compressed powder charge
The data calls for standard primers CCI 300 large pistol were used

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition is the best loading manual for cast bullets , everything in it is cast lead Lyman designs and other designs too... Lee , RCBS , Saeco and Hornady lead bullets ... this is the best for lead loading , rifle and handgun !
Gary

[44 AMP]

I’m starting at 19 grains of 4227 and loading to 1.65 inches COL.

First off, those rounds are over industry standard max length, which is 1.610".

A revolver won't care, but a magazine fed repeater might, as they don't have a lot of extra room in the mechanism. Marlin lever guns in particular are well known for not working well with overlength ammo.

What gun(s) are you using that load in??

Its been 30 years or so,but as I recall,the bullet snags the chamber mouth and won't go in.

At the same time,another round has fed from the tubular magazine to the lifters,so you have sort of a double feed.

This isn't quite correct, at least not with the guns i am familiar with. I am quite familiar with SWC slugs "hanging up" in a lever gun during chambering, and it can and does happen with regular length rounds, as well.

What sometimes happens is the round on the lifter "bounces" out of proper alignment with the chamber and the bullet catches on the edge of the chamber and doesn't slide in.

When this happens, bump the lever forward just a bit (some say "wiggle" the lever). This take the pressure jamming things off the cartridge and it will usually then drop back into proper position for smooth feeding. Trying to force the round into the chamber is the wrong approach. Back it off, just a little, and then (usually) it will go in smoothly when you close the action.

I have often done this, done right, it works.

If your rifle is in proper working order, you don't get a second round fed on to the lifter if the action is jammed open due to a SWC getting "stuck" on the chamber edge. At that point, the lifter is still "up". It doesn't drop down to reecive the next round until the bolt goes far enough forward, and that chambers the round.

With some guns the user can create the double feed jam by incorrectly working the action when a round sticks on its way into the chamber, by opening the bolt far enough to let the lifter drop but not far enough to eject the round.

A defective cartridge stop can also create a jam, if it releases a round while the lifter is still UP.

Seat your Keith style to the crimp groove and measure over all length. It ought to be 1.610" or less. Compressed powder charges are not automatically a bad thing.

Also don't fret over a tiny difference in bullet weight. A cast bullet weight can/will vary depending on the specific alloy it is made of. You will not be eaten by dragons if your bullet is a few grains heavier or lighter than the nominal weight listed in the data.

[ciwsguy]

Well, it is a Marlin 1894 44 Magnum with Ballard rifling. As I stated in previous posts, I seated the bullet below the crimp groove so it would cycle in the lever gun. I've checked the cycling in the lever and it works at 0.040 over max for pistols. I noticed that there are a few "Rifle 44 magnum" specs that cite 1.710 inches COL.
I only ordered these bullets because I could get them over-sized for the Marlin and with the gas check can be pushed to jacketed bullet velocities. This rifle never has shot well with jacketed bullets as they usually max out at .430 diameter. Even factory jacketed 44 Mag ammo does not shoot better than a 4 inch group at 50 yards (using a scope and a shooting rest). I need a .432 diameter and that means going to gas check cast bullets. I'm also trying some other style over-sized cast bullets, other than the Keith style semi-wadcutter.
I don't want to get into casting my own bullets.

[gwpercle]

That's not good ... factory ammo - 4" at 50 yards .
I wonder if something else is amiss ?
The easiest thing to check is the muzzle / crown ... does it have any kind of burr or ding in the crown .
Wish I could be more help but I only know Winchester 94 in 30-30 .
Someting has to be up ... I would expect at least 2" at 50 yards ???
Gary

[44 AMP]

I noticed that there are a few "Rifle 44 magnum" specs that cite 1.710 inches COL.

where did you find 1.710"? I've never seen that anywhere. All my manuals have exactly the same max length for both pistol and rifle loads.

Could it have been a misprint??
Or perhaps a non standard load that someone used and worked in their gun?

[ciwsguy]

The Lyman data for #429421 bullet, 245 grain. Note states it was tested in a Ruger carbine

[HiBC]

The 429421 is a long ogive ahead of the crimp groove. Its the bullet of my "tied up lever action"story.

It was not just me. The Gentleman that introduced me to the .44.leverguns,hoglegs and casting had the same problem. He was the go-to on site CAS "fixer" for lever guns and Win 97's.
We got away from that mold.
I suppose it would work crackerjack with 44 spl brass in a 44 Mag levergun.

All this fun was had in the 70's and 80's. My memory may have some fuzz on it.

[ciwsguy]

I just so happen to have some 44 Special brass to try this. Not sure of 44 SPC load data with this bullet

[44 AMP]

thank you for providing where you got the data.

My 1970 Lyman manual has .44 Special data for 5 powders with the 245gr #429421, so I'm sure there's more modern data out there now. Bullseye, Unique, 2400 and a couple others were lists.

Interestingly, COAL (loaded length with bullet) was listed as 1.615"
This is .005" longer than the listed max length for the .44 Magnum in that same manual.

.44 Spl Test gun was a 5.5" Colt SAA.

[ciwsguy]

The issue is the Marlin 1894 Ballard rifling with 1:36 twist and a 0.431 bore. Requires a bigger bullet and high velocity to get it to shoot worth anything. At least that’s what I’m trying to do

[Jim Watson]

Darn, I thought they got smart on twist when they got smart on rifling.

[HiBC]

I don't know what twist rate is best. Its actually related to bullet length.rather than weight.
I have never powder coated bullets,myself. I've read about it,here.

I'll suggest,for function in your rifle,you try a small qty of a bullet with a shorter Ogive ahead of the crimp groove.

You might be able to get them unlubed from your supplier.

Then if you powder coat them, the coating might add to the diameter. I'm theorizing,I have not done it. I'll bet a thread in the cast boolit section would get helpful info from those who do it.

Back to the idea of the 429421 bullet in 44 spl brass,
By designing a bullet that crimps to 44 Magnum length in 44 spl brass,it follows that it would roughly provide the same powder space under the bullet base as a 44 magnum with 44 spl brass.
Please do not jump to the conclusion I'm suggesting loading 44 spl to 44 magnum levels . I'm not. For several very good reasons,I do NOT recommend doing that. One that comes to mind is lightly constructed 5 shot 44 spl snubbies. Or original Colt 1873 style SAA recolvers. They might come unglued at 44 Magnum pressures. Surprise 44 magnum pressures from a cartridge case headstamped "44 SPL" could be dangerous.
And 44 Mag brass is probably made stronger.

Thats a very old bullet design,and Elmer was experimenting with 44 magnum loads in 44 spl brass before Remington made the longer 44 Magnum brass.

I do not know the history or reason why. But that might explain why the 429421 length is a troublesome one for lever actions,and where it might be used to advantage in some situations with 44 spl brass.Remember Elmer was fond of "Heavy Black Powder loads" and in some cases,he preferred "balloon head cases" for more powder capacity.
Designing a bullet with more material/weight forward of the crimp groove is one way to increase useful powder capacity.
But thats just my wild imagination trying to fill in the blanks

[ciwsguy]

Marlin in recent memory wasn’t very smart. Anyway, I very much like Marlin lever guns. It was beyond me why the SAAMI folks didn’t make the 44 magnum pistols the same bore/twist as the 44 mag handguns. Having different specs negates the purpose of using the same ammo as your handgun as long as pointy bullets are not used as projectiles.
It should be interesting to see what the Ruger folks do with bore and twist rate in their lever guns.
BTW, my rifle was about a 2016/17 production

[44 AMP]

It was beyond me why the SAAMI folks didn’t make the 44 magnum pistols the same bore/twist as the 44 mag handguns.

SAAMI doesn't make anything. SAAMI specs are recommendations that manufacturers may voluntarily abide by, or not, as they see fit. SAAMI is not an enforcement agency and has no power to compel compliance.

SAAMI is not "the law" they aren't even "the speed limit". No maker has to abide by SAAMI spec. Most do, some do not.

and. did you mean to say "44mgnum rifles the same as .44 mag handguns"?

[ciwsguy]

Yes. SAAMI creates specifications, right? That’s what I meant in making something. Paper specs are still a product, as I used to do working for the USN

[ammo.crafter]

Cut down 44 mag brass to 1.273" and keep OAL to a max of 1.746".

[ciwsguy]

So I loaded up some 44 special Keith GC and 44 magnums KGC 0.432 bullets with various loads of IMR 4227. Larger diameter bullets and heavier powder loads make this rifle (Marlin 1894 44 magnum, slow twist Ballard rifling 0.4305 bore) shoot much much better. Mounted a scope to remove the iron sights from the equation. 50 yard Groups dropped from 4 inches with factory 44 mag to less than two inches. Probably a 0.433 diam bullet would do even better.

[HiBC]

Thinking about ammocrafter's suggestion of trimming the brass..

IF you have a mold or bullet supply of bullets with an ogive thats a touch too long for lever gun feeding,that might be a good remedy. You are stuck with the crimp groove.
A .020 brass trim can give you a .020 shorter COAL . If a little bit makes the gun/ammo work, little fudges like that are the beauty of handloading.
I'll remember that one. Thanks!

[Unclenick]

Ciwsguy's,

For clarification, the slower the rifling twist, the shorter a bullet needs to be to be stabilized by it.

I believe you'll find the long bullet's were either intended for 44 Special or for 44 Magnums with long cylinders, like the Ruger RedHawk, that can accommodate them when the Special crimp groove is used. This was a popular arrangement for silhouette shooting at one time because of the extra powder capacity it makes in the 44 Mag case.