Mixed-Load Magazines

[johns7022]

It's pretty clear many of you haven't given this much thought...your part of the 'I just don't want to think about it' crowd.

When you dump a magazine into the skateboard punks that decided to push you around at the park, the in your face homeless guy, or the drunk at the bar, because 'you were in fear for your lives'...I want to be there when to try to articulate that to the DA that shows up, trying not to step into the pools of blood...

Or how about a real tactical situation where, your trying to drill the drive by shooter who is behind a car door...ooops...all that really expensive hydroshok, glasier safety slug, HP ammo you bought isn't getting any penetration....

Wandering around town, packing a gun, thinking that in every scenario, HP bullets and the mantra 'I was in fear for my life' will save the day, is really short sided thinking...

[booker_t]

It's pretty clear many of you haven't given this much thought

Well for me personally, I've never used a "mixed mag" in a handgun, but I do in a shotgun as the other reply mentioned (slugs and buck).

I typically keep 135gr Nosler HP in the primary handgun (15+1=16). 2nd mag is usually 200gr FMJ-FP (+15=31 total). If I have a 3rd mag, it'll likely be another stack of 135 Nosler or 180gr Bonded Defense JHP (+15=46). Backup piece has the 200gr FPs (+10+1=57).

That gives me several options, and should I decide the FP is better for the job, it's a fairly simple task to swap mags (retaining the first) and rack the slide (or pull the trigger) dumping the chambered HP. Or, switch guns. Yes, I train for it.

What's your opinion of that setup/approach?

PS, Generally speaking, I'm of the opinion that if I can't out-think, out-muscle or out-run skateboard punks and homeless guys, and avoid/descalate bar bullies, then I shouldn't be allowed to own a handgun.

[AcridSaint]

My spares have a couple of HPs on the top and FMJ rounds below. My loaded magazine has HP rounds. It is my belief that there are two primary reasons to switch magazines - malfunction or a whole magazine of ineffectiveness. Since it may be a malfunction, I want to transition to more HP ammo, but if I've managed to stay in the fight through a whole mag and need more penetration three HP rounds will just have to go down range first.

My revolver reload is always full-house 357 rounds. A little harder on the follow-up, but if five SWCHPs don't end the fight I have some insurance.

I don't believe in candy striping or anything else of that nature.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Once upon a time, I used to carry Glasers as the first few rounds in a magazine. I was concerned about overpenetration and wanted to limit it as much as possible. I got into a debate with someone here at TFL who disparaged the practice and tried to find evidence supporting it on Google - unfortunately, almost all of the evidence I found went the other direction.

After all Glaser Blue is just compressed #12 shot and Glaser Silver is compressed #6 shot. There are a number of stories of people getting shot by a 12 gauge loaded with #6 shot from across the room and not only surviving but being able to run/jump/shoot back.

One of the stories that stood out in my mind was a 94yr old man who shot himself in the stomach (contact shot) with a load of #6 birdshot from a 12 gauge. He decided to sleep it off and when he woke he was in enough pain that he drove himself to the hospital.

So if a 12 gauge isn't getting it done consistently with #6 shot, I guess it really shouldn't have suprised me that a 9mm loaded with #6 or #12 shot wasn't doing anywhere near that good. In any case, I soon switched to all JHPs.

Personally, I don't know what everyone's personal situation is, so it isn't really my place to decide what is the best load for them to carry. Having said that, I think a lot of people who carry Glaser-type rounds or snakeshot don't have a very good understanding of just how penetration limited they can be. Another factor often overlooked on the Glasers is that the jacket can deform when passing through a barrier (drywall for example), causing it not to release the pellets (Brassfetcher.com has a nice gel shot documenting this). When that happens, it actually penetrates quite well and performs in gel.

My current policy is to carry good modern handgun ammunition that meets the FBI criteria for effectiveness and train hard.

[ScottRiqui]

I'm a firm believer in both Murphy's Law and the 50-50-90 rule (if you have a 50-50 chance of making the right choice, you'll pick the wrong choice 90% of the time.)

As such, I have no doubt that if I loaded different types of ammo in a single magazine, the round under the hammer would invariably be the sub-optimal choice for the shot.

[AcridSaint]

But, since you already have a 50/50 chance if picking the "right" round for the situation doesn't that mean that you'll be completely limited to the "wrong" round when you make your pick and fill the whole magazine up with it?

[Hook686]

I can't imagine those that think of snake shot in defense situations. The idea to shoot to maim/wound/etc. is just a bad idea that is a product of too much tv watching. When a violent threat has met the legal criteria for lethal defensive force, is no time for half measures. If you're not willing to commit at that point, why bother to carry?

I carry snake shot in a .44 magnum revolver when I am out in the outback where I might expect to come across a rattlesnake. The first chamber holds one. The next couple of chambers hold Buffalo Bore Heavy 185 grain .44 Special, the next couple Speer Short Barrel 200 grain Gold Dots and the last chamber holds a 300 grain Hornady XTP.

I carry a S&W 329PD. Chambers 2 thru 5 are for recoil concerns with the lite Scandium/Titanium S&W revolver. The last is a 'Last ditch stand' round, as I do not like shooting this full house .44 magnum round in this light weight revolver. The snake shot is just that. I figure if it is a close encounter, like 10 feet, or less, a snake shot to the face might help ameliorate the threat. If not, the next round is a Heavy .44 Special and the very light recoil of the snake shot is not going to cause much problem.

The snake shot is not to wound, but to be used on rattlesnakes in the field. If a serious threat materializes I would shoot until the threat is eliminated.I know what I load into my revolver. I figure others must also. I seriously doubt anyone loads snake shot into a pistol magazine, or expects it to be effective beyond 10 feet. Beyond that distance I shoot it merely hoping for some effect and mostly to get to the next chamber.

Why is everyone so down on snake shot ? If you don't like it, don't use it.

[troy_mclure]

Or how about a real tactical situation where, your trying to drill the drive by shooter who is behind a car door...ooops...all that really expensive hydroshok, glasier safety slug, HP ammo you bought isn't getting any penetration....

actually the 165gr .40 hydrashock will go thru the door of a '60's Chevy belair, and dent metal in the other door.

10 shots at 10' with a 3" barrel, all 10 penetrated the door.

im sure if it will penetrate the heavy sheet metal used in the '60's it will penetrate "modern" car doors even better.

[BeerSleeper]

Originally Posted by Hook686

Why is everyone so down on snake shot ? If you don't like it, don't use it.

Not everyone's down on it, but so far in this thread, the premise has been it's use for self-defense, implying (as I have read it) aggressors of the two-legged variety. To that, I say, the right tool for the right job.

Your post was the first one I saw a suggestion of loading snake shot in preparation for use on a snake. I think that's a wise precaution. From the activity you described, you are probably substantially more likely to use your gun to defend against a snake, than anything else, making that a scenario worth preparing for. Too many other posts were suggesting loading snake shot rounds where there is no reasonable chance of encountering snakes.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have had a malfunction in a mixed mag.

.45ACP Remington UMC and Winchester PDX1 bonded.
After the hollowpoint, the round nose went nose up in the chamber. I haven't had this malfunction before or since with full mags of either.

This is interesting. So can you attribute the one time event to being because of the mixed loading and if so, how did the mixed loading create the malfunction?

If mixed loads can in fact create malfunctions because of being mixed loads, I am guessing that being able to see how the malfunction occurs is going to rely on some slow motion photography.

[AFSG]

In the event that I am in a situation where I am forced by another individual to use deadly force to save my own life. I see no need of reguard on my part to provide for his heath in the future.

[Mannlicher]

mixed loads are lame, lame, lame.

[orionengnr]

Most of the time I see this discussion, it is in the context of either .32 or .380.

IMHO, mixing (or alternating) rounds is a clear sign of either a) indecision or b) lack of faith in your choice of caliber.

I think the solution to that is obvious.

If not, I'll spell it out. Use an adequate caliber.

[raimius]

This is interesting. So can you attribute the one time event to being because of the mixed loading and if so, how did the mixed loading create the malfunction?

If mixed loads can in fact create malfunctions because of being mixed loads, I am guessing that being able to see how the malfunction occurs is going to rely on some slow motion photography.

Quite honestly, I am not positive it was due to the mixed loading. However, I have never had a similar malfunction with that magazine or pistol. (DW CBOB with factory mag)


I might try to replicate the malfunction the next time I go to the range with my pistol.

[Double Naught Spy]

Thinking about this mixed loading issue, it dawned on me that there are mixed loads being used on a consistent basis and apparently without concern that the mixed loads will cause a malfuction. I am talking about those in the military who load tracer ammunition with ball ammunition. The tracer ammo is usally a different weight than the ball ammo and usually has a different velocity. The same goes for adding AP ammo to the mix.

Maybe mixed loading isn't so lame after all.

[UpandAtIt]

When I carry in the city, I load in the magazine with what my local police use. When I am in the outback, I carry three magazines when I have an auto, each magazine is loaded with a specific use round and have practiced in what mag and when, just depends on the situation.

I never mix within the same magazine, one, if you need to change your ammo thoughts immediately, unloading, finding the right rounds and reloading the mag can be costly. Two, the chances for jams, stove pipes and FTE are greater, not probable, but possible.

When I carry a revolver, I can easily mix the cylinder up as long as I make sure the first round is timed right for fire. Changing out a cylinder is much easier than a magazine unloading and reloading.

[wayneinFL]

Mixing rounds makes no sense, get a good modern HP and go with it. Snak shot is downright dangerous to use. It is not even a good wounding round on smakes. Unless the perp is wearing a t-shirt you probably won't even draw blood.

I agree. There was a burglary up in Orlando a few years back in which a homeowner went to investigate a noise in his garage. He opened a cabinet, found the burglar hiding, and emptied a revolver full of snakeshot into his face. Made the burglar madder than hell. The burglar went outside, got a gun he had stolen in a previous burglary and shot up the old man's car. Fortunately, the burglar didn't shoot the old man.

To the wishy-washy who want to put snake shot in a defensive sidearm:

If you want a less lethal weapon, get OC spray. If you want an all the way lethal weapon, get a firearm. Don't get a firearm and try to "set it to stun."

[BeerSleeper]

Originally Posted by WayneinFL

Don't get a firearm and try to "set it to stun."

Excellent point. If one really wants a "phasers on stun" type of defensive, I'd suggest one of those tasers that shoots the probes out of it would be a better choice.

[Double Naught Spy]

I agree. There was a burglary up in Orlando a few years back in which a homeowner went to investigate a noise in his garage. He opened a cabinet, found the burglar hiding, and emptied a revolver full of snakeshot into his face. Made the burglar madder than hell. The burglar went outside, got a gun he had stolen in a previous burglary and shot up the old man's car. Fortunately, the burglar didn't shoot the old man.

That is a great story. Do you actually have a source for it? It would be nice to be able to point folks considering using snakeshot to a link for the story.

[usmcgundog]

It's my opinion that, with modern ammunition, it's silly to mix loads in the same handgun magazine.

Non-lethal rounds as #1 and #2 in a handgun? Man, if a threat is bad enough for me to draw my weapon and fire it, it's danged sure bad enough that I want "something" that will greatly increase my chances of stopping said threat.
You hit the nail on the Head.

[wayneinFL]

Hmmm. This sounds like the story, but the details aren't exactly as I remember them. Maybe I'm mixing it up with another story in Orlando? Hard to say- seems like burglars are always getting shot in Orlando.

From: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/infor...em.asp?ID=3430

Homeowner wounds burglars with Follow-Up (Forest Hills, Tennessee - May 20, 2002)

Homeowner wounds burglars

Originally ran here as:
Forest Hills homeowner wounds burglary suspects
by Brad Schrade, Staff Writer
The Tennessean
May 20, 2002

Forest Hills homeowner wounds burglary suspects

A Forest Hills man shot two armed burglars at his home early yesterday morning and, police say, the burglars were lucky that Roy Luckett grabbed his wife's gun.

When the burglar alarm went off at 2 a.m. in Luckett's two-story home at 939 Tyne Blvd., it woke him and his wife, Patsy. Luckett had the choice of two guns in their bedroom  his .45-caliber handgun and his wife's less powerful, .38-caliber pistol, loaded with "snake shot" pellets.

He grabbed the .38 and went downstairs.

After searching the first floor, Luckett, 67, went to the basement, where a door near the garage was cracked open, his attorney Clark Spoden said.

Luckett thought the wind had blown it open; he closed the door and was about to go back upstairs when Patsy called down to him.

"She said, 'Did you check all the rooms?' " Spoden said. "(Luckett) was in a storage room adjacent to the furnace room and heard this noise."

Luckett opened the furnace-room door to find two figures standing in the darkness, and he fired three times, emptying the gun, Spoden said.

Police say the two burglary suspects were masked and armed with rifles, Spoden said.

The pellets hit one suspect, Micah R. Ladd, 20, in the arm. The other suspect, a juvenile, 17, whose name police withheld, was hit in the face.

Luckett ran upstairs and grabbed the .45. The suspects struggled to get the garage door open and once they did, fled through the garage, police and Spoden said.

The pair fired 14 rounds from at least one of the rifles into Patsy Luckett's sport utility vehicle, piercing its body and shattering a window, Spoden and police said.

When police arrived in the neighborhood, where homes are appraised in the $1 million range, they followed a trail of blood from the Lucketts' furnace room, through the garage and into the woods, where they found a black mask and a flashlight.

Metro police say the two wounded suspects stopped near the Harding Place/Humber Drive intersection and phoned for medical help.

Ladd, who was treated and released from a hospital, admitted to the burglary, according to a police statement, and led detectives to the two rifles that he had stashed at his home at Hillview Heights near Franklin Pike before calling for medical help.

The juvenile is being treated at Vanderbilt University Medical Center and will be booked into juvenile detention upon release, the police statement said.

The Lucketts were not injured. Metro police spokesman Don Aaron was quoted in a television report saying that the two suspects were fortunate Roy Luckett chose the gun he did.

Luckett said he does not know why the suspects stayed in the house after the alarm went off.

"They were lucky I didn't take the .45," he said.

"No telling what would have happened. God just guided me through that night."

Break-in suspect is Chase's son

Originally ran here as:
Break-in suspect is Chase's son
by Sheila Burke, Staff Writer
The Tennessean
May 21, 2002

Break-in suspect is Chase's son

Longtime television talk show host Charlie Chase yesterday acknowledged that his teen-age son was one of two males accused by Metro police of breaking into an Oak Hill home to rob a 67-year-old man and his wife early Sunday.

The son, David Bernard, 17, was in stable condition last night at Vanderbilt University Medical Center after being shot in the face by the homeowner, Roy W. Luckett, of 939 Tyne Blvd. Charlie Chase is the professional name of Charles W. Bernard.

While not naming the teen, police said a 17-year-old and 20-year-old Micah Ladd broke into the home armed with a Bulgarian rifle similar to an AK-47 assault rifle and a .22-caliber pistol.

Chase, in a statement released to the media said his family was "in complete shock." Chase declined through a spokesman to give an interview.

"My family and I simply don't understand what has happened," the statement said. "We're in complete shock. We are just now beginning to learn details. The whole matter seems so unreal.

"Whatever did happen, we are thankful that David is alive. It was traumatic for everyone involved, including Mr. and Mrs. Luckett. Our thoughts are with them, as well."

The intruders had duct tape, police spokesman Don Aaron said, and "we believe that they intended to rob Mr. and Mrs. Luckett and in the process bind them while the robbery took place."

Still unknown, police said, is how the pair acquired the weapons and why the Luckett home was targeted.

Chase sold a home on Tyne Valley Boulevard, less than a mile from the Luckett home, in April, property records show. He bought the home in 1997.

In his statement, Chase said it was important for the family to support David, and he asked for "prayers and support and for the understanding that would allow David and us to deal with this as private individuals."

Chase and Lorianne Crook launched a television variety show, Crook & Chase, in 1986. It aired for a decade on TNN, then in syndication in 1996 for a year, before it returned to TNN. The network dropped the show in late 1999.

The duo are now hosts of Crook & Chase Country Countdown, a nationally syndicated radio show.

School officials said records show a Charles D. Bernard is a student at Overton High School, at 4820 Franklin Pike. Several Overton High students contacted last night declined to comment. Messages left for former Overton High Principal Michael Hammond and current Principal Monica Dillard were not returned.

When the injured teen is released from Vanderbilt, he will be charged as a juvenile with charges including aggravated criminal trespassing, aggravated robbery, unlawful weapon possession, felony vandalism, possession of burglary tools and criminal attempt to commit aggravated robbery, police said.

Ladd, who was shot in the arm by the homeowner and has since been released from the hospital, was in the Metro Jail last night in lieu of $100,000 bail. He was charged with aggravated burglary, police said. Police expect additional charges against Ladd, of 831 Hillview Heights.

Police said Ladd has admitted his role in the burglary and led police to the weapons at his house. "Unless they have been modified, (the weapons) are not on their face illegal," Aaron said.

At a press conference at his home yesterday, Luckett recounted the events of Sunday morning. He was awakened by his home alarm system shortly after 2 a.m.

Luckett grabbed his wife's .38-caliber pistol loaded with "snake shot," which is similar to BB pellets, and began checking the house. He went downstairs into the garage and opened the door to a utility closet. Inside, he saw two armed masked figures and shot them, police said. Luckett said he fired all the ammunition in the handgun and then ran upstairs.

Luckett "fired his weapon in self-defense because he feared for his safety," according to Ladd's arrest affidavit.

The two suspects fled but not before one of them sprayed Luckett's Lexus sport utility vehicle with gunfire, he said. There were 13 bullet holes on the side of the vehicle and one, Luckett said, came within a hair of hitting the gas tank.

After fleeing, the two men tried to get help for their gunshot wounds, police said. Police said they tried to drive to a hospital in south Nashville but stopped near the intersection of Harding Place and Humber Drive and called for help. They told responding officers that they were shot while downtown, but police suspected they had just come from the Luckett house.

Luckett said the incident has taken a heavy emotional toll on his wife, Patsy.

"It's a shame that you work hard all your life and then have something like this happen."

[Glenn Dee]

Mr Johns

I have given it quite a bit of thought. My prior post describes my mix of ammo in my H/D revolver. Although I have little fear of skate boarders, and almost never go to bars... I restrict my "In fear for my life" time to more realistic situations.

I respect everyones opinions, and often learn something from them. My personal tactics, including ammo load out works for me. As a civilian I believe I can articulate my logic in a court if need be. My decision to mix ammo is based on my experience, and my location. As I said... it works for me.

I must admit that I do fear tripping over my son's skateboard when coming in after a late night call out.


Glenn D

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Which is more likely:

1. You will have to shoot through a car door?
2. A FMJ overpenetrates and hits an innocent?

- This is for an average civilian DGU?

So many hypotheticals?

[johns7022]

Assuming all the testing has been done for reliability and accuracy..

I don't see a big problem with carrying a gun that has 2 rounds of snake shot, then 2 rubber rounds, then two Glasiers(low power), then two high power Glasiers, then two lead rounds, then two FMJ ball, then two HPs.

If hypotheticaly everyday you walked dark alleys, and everyday you got into a conflight with someone...imagine how many times, the BGs would run away, with bruise to the leg, or cops were cuffing up a guy in pain due to a little snake shot...no one is dead, no lawsuits, no charges...you solved the problem without having to kill someone...

And if you are attacked by super ninja homie, you just keep pulling the trigger untill a round that works stops him...

Now I don't do this, but for purposes of this discuss, varying the type of rounds that one needs for the given situation is historicaly and tacticaly not only relevent, but a given fact for those cops dealing with riots, people with armour etc.

Simply put if you decide to KILL everyone that is in conflict with you...then you might as well let the kids at the skateboard park beat you up, because no jury in the world is letting you off for killing all of them because a bunch of 14 year olds pushed you around....

[raimius]

no lawsuits, no charges

HAHA! Don't count on it. You SHOT them. By legal standards, you clearly used lethal force. You must be able to justify that, or you WILL likely spend time in prison.
It matters not that you used "slightly less lethal" lethal force.

So, I did a mixed mag test again. Remington UMC ball and Winchester PDX1 Bonded out of my .45 CBOB, using the factory mag. No malfunction this time.
Theory results: inconclusive.