.357 vs .357

[springmom]

This is probably the stupid question of the week for y'all. But I need to ask it, because I can't dig up an answer on my own.

We've been talking about the use of the .357mag for handgun hunting, and I think the general consensus is that a .44mag gives one a somewhat more secure shot at the slightly longer ranges (understanding that nothing past 75-100 yards is okay with either one). However, a well placed shot with a .357mag, at a not-too-big distance, brings down whitetails (especially our Labrador retriever sized ones here).

So here's the stupid question. Will a .357 SIG do the same? I have pored over the ballistic data in my Hornady reloading book, and for the life of me I can't figure out why it would NOT. A 124 gr. bullet in .357 Sig, loaded to near max levels, yields about 1200-1250 (maybe a bit more, I chose figures that weren't absolute maxout levels, though). A 125 gr. in .357 mag yields higher velocities; 1250-1350. But that is not an enormous difference.

Assume a 4" barrel, whether, say, a GP-100 or a XD-357. Would a .357 Sig accomplish the same goal at the same distances (again, 75-100 yards) as a .357 mag?

(I ask because, since I'm rethinking the .44mag for the sake of my arthritis and my wallet, the choice of .357 opens up the idea of using the semiauto platform for further recoil reduction and lower carry weight.)

Thanks in advance for teaching this still-newb.

Springmom

[swampdog]

I don't think I'd puposely set out to hunt with a 125 gr bullet in either caliber. I've taken 2 deer with a 4" S&W 19. I used 158gr bullets both times and I wasn't impressed with the performance, even though I recovered both deer. The general consensus seems to be that if you choose to hunt with a .357, use the 180 gr loads.

I'm not familar with the .357 sig. Are there any heavier loads available?

If you want an auto, why not a 10mm?

I don't think you'll find the recoil from a large .357 (686, gp-100, or blackhawk) to be that painful, with practice. Since you are a beginner at handgun hunting, I'd suggest a 6" barrel.

I'm sure a .357 sig will kill a deer, though. It just might not be the best tool for the job.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_hunting.htm

Have Fun && Good Luck

[Sarge]

I have shot one deer, and seen probably four others shot, with the .357 mag. Mine was about 32 years ago, I was using too light a bullet, and the range was too far-90 yards. I was 18 & dumb- what can I say? The others were shot closer with 150-160 grain SWC's. None of them were what I'd call clean kills. Now I know many others have killed deer cleanly with the .357, and at least one chap (whose name escapes me now) has has killed one cleanly with a 127 grain 9mm. I am simply relating my experience with this caliber in the application you mentioned. It may also be largely irrelevant; I went to bigger guns shortly thereafter, and never looked back.

In all fairness to the .357's, expanding bullets are much better than they were 32 years ago and it is no big trick to find JHP's that actually expand, and stay together. I think given the right load (say a full-snort 158-180 XTP) you would be well eqipped for Tejas whitetails within 50 yards.

I'm gonna offer an alternative, though. The 210 Silvertip in .44 mag will do anything and more that a 180 .357 will do, and the difference in recoil is inconsequential. My wife has had two tendon surgeries on her left hand, and has had severe tendonitis & arthiritis in her right. By waiting until she was fully recovered, and easing her into the .44 with light .44 Special-level loads, she is now handling 250 Keiths at 1200 fps...this from a 4" Model 29, with Pachmyer 'Small' Presentations, which compares favorable with a 1911 in size & weight.

You can easily 'shift either direction' from there with the .44 mag, but you can't 'shift up' from the 180/.357 w/o a bigger gun. My contention is that it's probably better to just get the bigger gun in the first place, and just load it light until you get used to it.

Good luck whatever you choose.

[springmom]

Those are very good points, and your wife's experience is very reassuring. With some Pachmeyer grips and light loads, maybe this is something I can do.

Affording is a different issue. But reloading will certainly help.

Thanks.

Springmom

[chemist308]

I recently picked up a 357 mag. The dealer who sold it to me wanted me to get a 44, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it having just talked to one of his customers who had a case of 'magnum wrist'--whatever the ___ that is--from not gripping the gun tight enough.

I got to say I'm impressed with both the handling of the gun and the performance (against inanimate objects). The recoil is managable enough that I can hit what I'm shooting at within 10 yards (4" circle) without any previous practice. Also I shot into a 4" thick tree with the thing and it blew a hole almost the size of my fist out the other side. Given that I gotta believe it will take deer at pistol ranges--which is all the further you realistically get to shoot in my woods. If I scoped it I wouldn't hesitate to hunt deer with it at pistol ranges. If the ballistics are close I don't see why the sig round couldn't but I have no experience there.

[Fremmer]

I'd rather shoot the heavier 158/180 grain round from the revolver. The Sig round has good power, but it's a lighter round. I don't think you'd want to use a 125 grain hollow point on a deer (even a smaller one -- those can run too), because you want good penetration even if you hit bone.

[Jimro]

I wouldn't hunt with a 357 out of a revolver if I could avoid it, the ranges at what I consider useable for the 357 are pretty short, and I'm pretty loud in the woods I think a 1911 in 400 Corbon would be a better option, or a S&W 610 10mm revolver. The 10 mm packs about the same "power" as a 41 mag, and if you want more recoil mitigation you could always get a Glock or EA witness, or even an older Colt Gold Cup if someone is willing to part with it...

Jimro

[springmom]

I *have* a .45. A .45 is fat and slow and wouldnt do anything but injure a deer. I carry it into the woods primarily to scare pigs away, but I'd never try to hunt with it.

I think (emphasis on THINK) I'm going to stick with my original plan and get the .44 mag. I don't know that I'll get the great big honking 9 1/2 inch barrel (it would be nice for recoil management, I know, but... )

Let me ask you .44mag guys: how much difference with the same load will you feel between a 4", 6", or 8+" barrels?

Springmom

[swampdog]

Let me ask you .44mag guys: how much difference with the same load will you feel between a 4", 6", or 8+" barrels?

None. When you shoot a deer, you don't feel the recoil. The longer barrel will shoot better for you at first, accuracy wise. If you feel comfortable with a 4", go for it.

At the range is a different story, though. The shorter barrels definitely have more recoil and muzzle blast.

I really like my 629 MG, but I feel I'm handicapping myself, range wise, vs. my 7.5 SBH.

Deer liver is pretty good, btw.

[springmom]

And that's an issue, because I am going to have to take considerable time at the range with this thing, working up from babysteps loads to go-kill-the-pigs-and-deer loads. Once I get this conquered it's unlikely to be my range toy of choice but it's going to need to spend a good amount of time there at first.

Thanks for bringing up muzzle blast...I'd let that drop off the radar in thinking about recoil.

Springmom, who may yet need to talk to Carter about that S&W

[swampdog]

If he'll sell you the one you were talking about, I think it would be a very good starter.

There is NO comparision between an older S&W and anything else, btw.

[Sarge]

Let me ask you .44mag guys: how much difference with the same load will you feel between a 4", 6", or 8+" barrels?

Springmom

I won't say that there isn't a difference between the 4" & 8" barrels; but I will say that that difference is inconsequential, and can be easily negated by careful load and grip selection. You'll enjoy carrying the 4" gun more, or at least I sure do. Any difference in practical accuracy between the barrel lengths in nil, particularly at sane handgun hunting distances.

There's a good thread on this topic at the S&W Forum, located at http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...7221090851/p/1 if you're interested in having a look. I am SargeMO over there.

[JohnKSa]

If you can handle the weight and grip size, the Desert Eagle 44Magnum is a very accurate pistol. Recoil, due to the weight and semi-auto action is reduced, compared to a revolver.

Also, in my experience, a decent sized .44Mag revolver (like a 7" Ruger Super RedHawk) won't recoil as much as a typical .357mag. I find the recoil of a .357Mag to be a sharp smack to the hand while the .44Mag (especially out of one of the larger revolvers) to be less of an "insult" and more of a push.

Unless you're going to be packing the gun around (vs hunting from a stand), I'd be more inclined to go large than small.

[Rich Lucibella]

Pretty CLASS ACT thread, if I do say so myself.

A .357 (Mag or Sig) is hardly a casual choice for deer. But it's doable. And it's being asked by a Member that really understands ethics in hunting. What's Class about it is that I've not seen the plethora of "yep, just shoot 'em in the neck" posts that these threads seem to attract. Even for those making the logical argument for a .44 mag, we've missed the usual caliber dogma.

Springmom-
It can be done with any of the above. I've not the patience to do it right, so I won't try. You do. You're asking all the right questions and getting great feedback. My money's on you and the Members that have offered such reasoned response as I've seen.

Good show, guys. Great thread. Reminds me of a TFL I once knew.
Rich

[Fremmer]

Watch out for the weight of that 44 mag, Springmom. You may not want the 8" barrel because of the weight. I'd try and find a 6" or 4" barrel. Try a couple of different revolvers to make sure you are comfortable. (And I'm not trying to be sarcastic by that comment; just thinking from the last time I shot a .44 mag....It got heavy later in the afternoon! )

P.S. A buddy just bought a Henry Big Boy .44 mag. Cool gun and caliber! How would that be as an option -- A light, handy carbine in .44 mag?

Edited to add: O.K., you need to buy the carbine and the revolver in .44 mag.

[stinger]

I think the use of the 357 sig is not a great choice. In 125g loadings it CAN match 357 mag, but I wouldn't choose that either. I think 125g is too light, even for Texas whitetails. I'm not aware of heavier loadings with the sig, but 158-180g loadings for the magnum would be sufficient, provided the shooter was up to the task.

I'm not saying the sig can't kill a deer, I'm just saying it would not be my choice.

Regards,

Stinger

[springmom]

I appreciate all the feedback. Y'all are the bomb.

I went out to Bass Pro Shops in Katy today after church and they had a Super Redhawk in .44mag (back in the back, I had to ask...the one on display was 454 Casull and I thought, um, NO) Nice trigger. Some dryfiring to work that trigger will help, but it's as good as my snubbie as it is.

So my husband, who is a first class guy, said I could borrow from his "next year in Wyoming for elk" fund, and the Super Redhawk followed me home.

I'll post pix if I get my stupid digital camera to work right. It's being contrary. But it's the 9" barrel (9 1/2, actually, I think) and as huge as that sounds, it feels just right for me. The grips are rubber with the wooden insets. I'll take a look and see if I can find some Pachmeyer decelerator grips for it.

For now, I'll find the lightest .44 special loads I can, to practice with. Setting up the reloading gizmo has to wait until our new floor gets installed which will be a few weeks, and I *really really really* don't want this to just have to sit in its box that long, LOL.

Many thanks to all of you who encouraged me to go ahead and jump in to the big bore waters. I think, obviously, that you are right, and I hope that the long, heavy barrel and judiciously chosen practice loads will enable me to master this gun and turn it into a really first-rate hunting weapon.

And Rich: thanks for the comments about the thread. You're right, this is what it ought to look like around here...people who have something intelligent to say saying it (and I've been blessed in receiving those words of wisdom!) and not gettig into the dumber variants that have occasionally cropped up in other discussions.

Pictures will follow soon (I hope).

Springmom

[Rich Lucibella]

As we say in the 'hood, "You Go, Girl!"

Looking forward to pics. You made a GREAT choice.
Rich

[JohnKSa]

Try it with the factory grips first. They're really surprisingly good. I tried the Pachmayrs on a GP100 once (same grip frame) and didn't like them as well as the factory equipment.

If the factory grips don't work for you, try the Hogue rubber grips next. Ruger has them for sale on their website here.

If you decide to stick with the factory grips, the only thing I don't like about the factory grips is that the speedloader cutout on the left side of the grips digs into my thumb knuckle a little during extended sessions. If it bothers you too, you can trim the rubber in that area with an Xacto knife and finish it with some sandpaper to make it blend. I've done that to a few GP100/Super RedHawk grips and you can't even tell it by looking without comparing it to an unmodified grip. Or, if you want, PM me and I'll send you the rubber part of a grip I've already done. If you like it, send me your unmodified grip and we'll call it a deal.

You're going to be surprised with .44specials. I doubt they'll recoil as much as a 9mm out of that monster.

Wear a shooting glove. Sometimes the rubber is too grippy and it can pull on your skin as the gun moves around in recoil and give you a bit of an "indian burn".

[Rich Lucibella]

Wear a shooting glove.

Yes!

This is not about being ready for a self defense situation in bed. You're suiting up for a hunt. Include the shooting gloves in your kit. Great point, John.
Rich

[VUPDblue]

Ok, I have to ask (as I only hunt paper anymore) don't some states have a minimum cartridge LENGTH as well as minimum CALIBER for hunting large game? I had a roommate in college who was an avid hunter (and now a local CO) and I seem to remember having a very similar conversation with him.

[swampdog]

Before they changed the law here, they had a minimum cartridge lenght of 2 3/4" (IIRC) for bottled necked catridges only. There was no length restrictions on straight walled revolver cartridges. I like our new regs much better.

Springmom,

Good Luck && Good Hunting

[VUPDblue]

Ok, then wouldn't that reg. exclude the .357Sig as a possibility, as it has a maximum OAL of 1.140 and is bottlenecked?

[Sarge]

Good grief, Springmom... does it have a bayonet lug too?

Just kidding. You did in fact make an excellent choice, and I'll second those who have said to give the factory grips a chance. We had a SP-101 ,357 around here for awhile, and Peggi used to run me out of Federal 125 grain Magnums with that gun- said they were "fun." I did get a kick outta watching her shooti it DA, and making a big fireball with each shot. The Ruger SP/SG/SRH grip has excellent recoil-control properties.

You'll hardly kmow it's going off with .44 Specials. Find some 200 grain 'cowboy loads' in Magnum brass for starters. They're no hotter than the Specials, and you get magnum brass to reload later. When you 'outgrow' those-and it won't take long-try some 210 grain Magnum Silvertips, or 200 grain Fiocchi JHP's. They'll shoot pretty close to the cowboy loads, and have plenty of 'thump' for Texas whitetails.

Congrats & good luck.

[swampdog]

Ok, then wouldn't that reg. exclude the .357Sig as a possibility, as it has a maximum OAL of 1.140 and is bottlenecked?

Under the old law, it would have. You can use it under the new law. That's in NC, btw.