Concealed Carry While ON The Range

[Tactical Jackalope]

Interesting, I do not know what the laws of Florida are but here in Illinois if you are caught doing this, your ccw is revoked and given a nice big fine.

=

Here in Michigan, if discovered, you will be asked to leave. If you refuse, you are trespassing and can be charged.

Same here in Florida.

[thump_rrr]

Being In Canada I am unable to CCW and have no problem with it.
I am also a member at a small range in the USA where you unlock the gate and drive in and shoot.
There is no big fence surrounding the place just the gate to keep unauthorized cars from entering.
One day last year a person showed up by bike and walked around the gate and approached me asking questions about the club.
I was shooting rifles that day and wasn't carrying a pistol.
As the questions went on they became more and more strange such as what the combination is for the gate.
He finally left once another club member showed up but since then I carry a loaded pistol in my IPSC rig or battle belt if I am there alone.
If another club member shows up and will be shooting in the same area as me I will revert to what I consider normal IPSC rules. Cleared, hammer down, holstered.

[Rifleman1952]

My range allows concealed carry, but one is not permitted to pull that pistol/revolver and practice with it. All guns to be used at the range must arrive unloaded. If I want to practice with my main CCW weapon, I bring it unloaded in a case and conceal carry one of my other pistols.

Only an idiot would try to rob someone at a gun range. But let's face it; the world is full of idiots.

[thump_rrr]

Only an idiot would try to rob someone at a gun range. But let's face it; the world is full of idiots

That's because you don't think like a criminal.
Ranges are typically far from populated areas.
Nobody will think twice if they hear a gunshot or gun shots.
You are not surprised or alarmed at seeing someone else carrying a gun.

I'm not one to be paranoid or an alarmist but that strange encounter had me thinking about my safety more than living over 40 years in the big city has.
I had a precision rifle with nice glass, an M1A National Match, and 2 Noveske's with me. That's about $10,000 in rifles and optics.

[Rifleman1952]

I live in a small midwestern town. Even in an area not known for crime, criminals could be lurking around, waiting for that opportunity to make an easy score.

Several years ago, I had an outboard motor, worth about $2000 stolen off of my fishing boat. It happened in an area not known for crime. That incident made me much more security conscious. I no longer take things for granted when it comes to security. I even lock my car when it's in the garage.

At my range, I always carry concealed, and will keep my firearms within a few feet. I use a spotting scope, and multiple paper targets on a 2 1/2 ft wide by 5 ft tall wooden framed target holder. After reading about the OPs experience, from now on, I'll carry my long gun with me when it's time to walk down to the target.

I grew up in a time when people didn't feel the need to lock their doors at night. Sadly, that's just not the case anymore.

[hbhobby]

Just a question after reading the above posts. Are you guys really going to shoot someone ove a few $$$ worth of guns? I know here in AZ we have some of the most gun friendly laws around and you still cannot use lethal force to protect "stuff". Lethal force is only justified if you fear for your life. Someone stealing an unloaded gun is not what any jury would consider life threatening especially in this day and age of the current anti gun sentiment. IMO

[TailGator]

hbhobby, you are presuming that a person who would steal guns at a range would come to the range unarmed, without ammunition, and with the intent of leaving unharmed those from whom he stole valuable items. Stealing guns from someone at the range is a pretty brazen act, and I for one would not make those presumptions; as a matter of fact, I would expect the possibility for violence in such a situation would be pretty high.

To answer your question more directly, would I shoot someone over property? No, I wouldn't, but neither would I let them take my guns without being challenged, and I would be very alert to the possibility that such a situation could rapidly develop into an event that threatened death or serious injury.

I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that a person who steals a gun instantly becomes an armed person, and thus comes very close to that threshold of being an immediate threat.

[Rifleman1952]

hbhobby Just a question after reading the above posts. Are you guys really going to shoot someone ove a few $$$ worth of guns? I know here in AZ we have some of the most gun friendly laws around and you still cannot use lethal force to protect "stuff". Lethal force is only justified if you fear for your life. Someone stealing an unloaded gun is not what any jury would consider life threatening especially in this day and age of the current anti gun sentiment. IMO

Just to be sure, I went back and re-read all of the posts in this thread and no where did I see anyone state they would "shoot someone ove a few $$$ worth of guns" That sentiment is not even inferred by any post I read. The gist of this thread is that we should take precautions in making it more difficult for our firearms to be stolen, and that just because you are at a range does not mean you can't become the victim of a robbery or worse. I belong to a range that permits concealed carry. The same state laws apply regarding a justifiable use of a firearm, whether I'm at the range or in a mall parking lot. And no one in this thread has inferred otherwise.

[DMK]

The range I go to is about 10 miles out of town and probably covers a good square mile....Because it is remote it seems to me that it would make an excellent target and as a result I make a point of never being caught with an empty gun

If the OP feels he absolutely must carry a loaded concealed weapon, everywhere, every minute of the day, he might be just a bit paranoid and must recognize that if he is caught he will be banned from the range.

The public range I go to (the only one available within 100 miles) is outdoors and 20 miles out in the middle of nowhere. Many times I am the only one there. Oh, and there is no cell phone service. There wouldn't be any cavalry coming and even if I could call someone, it would take them 30 minutes to get there.

People in authority want to cover their own butts. Nobody gives a damn about your safety you except you.

So yes, I carry a loaded concealed sidearm at all times on the range. I never remove it from the holster and I never show it to anyone.

Sometimes I'll have another one that I practice with drawing from IWB or pocket holster, but there will then be a BUG that stays loaded and holstered.

[Onward Allusion]

Kind of pathetic, isn't it? My club has the same rules. My interpretation? Concealed is concealed. It's a friggin gun club.

As an aside, our club is in the middle of nowhere. On weekdays, it is pretty much empty except for 1 or 2 old timers on a 700 acre piece of land. Who ya gonna call?

[DMK]

Kind of pathetic, isn't it?

It is. I get that there are idiots out there that do stupid things, but that's no reason to disarm everyone. Sometimes our fellow gun owners are nearly as bad as the anti-gun crowd.

[JohnKSa]

Just a question after reading the above posts. Are you guys really going to shoot someone ove a few $$$ worth of guns?

There are a couple of things to consider when assessing a situation where a criminal comes to a range to steal guns.

First of all, one presumes that such a criminal expects that persons at a range are armed and would therefore be either prepared to meet any resistance with deadly force or might plan to forestall any resistance by using deadly force prior to taking the firearms.

Second, once a criminal steals a gun, they are armed even if they weren't armed in the beginning. An armed criminal in the process of committing a crime should be considered to be very dangerous--potentially a deadly threat depending on the circumstances.

Shooting someone to prevent simple theft (snatch & grab in daylight) would certainly be illegal, but it wouldn't be wise to assume that the criminal was purely benign in all other respects besides his desire to steal a deadly weapon. It makes sense to be prepared for trouble in a situation where you are dealing with high-value items which are a common target for robbers. Especially when you are your own backup.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Miami Shootout killers took guns from people out plinking, IIRC.

[Sharkbite]

The Miami Shootout killers took guns from people out plinking, IIRC.

And shot him and left him for dead. He crawled out of the Florida swamp to a hwy and was picked up by a passing motorist.

Im convinced that most people dont have ANY clue how ruthless some criminals are. Just no idea of the cruelty inside of some folks

[Rattlehead]

I frequently pocket carry for that exact reason. Never been to a range where such requirements existed, but nobody needs to know about the one in the pocket.

I also keep a mag loaded in the back pocket for whatever pistol I'm shooting... nothing like an empty gun and an empty mag if you need it. Worst comes to worst, I can throw a full mag in the pistol and be ready to go - it's not as fast as a loaded gun, but it's a step up from the one in the pocket.

[Moonglum]

As a general rule I only take one handgun to the range and I make it a habit to never holster it empty. I'm also trying to develop that habit in my wife as well.

If nothing else it's a chance to practice reloads

[Tactical Jackalope]

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

And shot him and left him for dead. He crawled out of the Florida swamp to a hwy and was picked up by a passing motorist.

Im convinced that most people dont have ANY clue how ruthless some criminals are. Just no idea of the cruelty inside of some folks

Yup! It's not about the money or the possessions. If they have a gun waving around while actively robbing people, they have already made the choice to threaten with a deadly weapon. There is no predicting what they will or won't do. This is why often times you see someone intervene and shoot the would-be robber.

There are many cases of that here in Miami. One was a Mazda 626 pulling up to a woman who was walking, one guy leaps out of the car and grabs her purse and with his other hand he shot her in the face and neck and killed her. Got in the car and took off.

They made the choice to point guns at people and demand their possessions.

[armoredman]

Originally Posted by hbhobby

Lethal force is only justified if you fear for your life.

Originally Posted by Arizona Revised Statutes

13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force
A. A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:
1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and
2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.
B. A person has no duty to retreat before threatening or using deadly physical force pursuant to this section if the person is in a place where the person may legally be and is not engaged in an unlawful act.
...
13-404. Justification; self-defense
A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.
B. The threat or use of physical force against another is not justified:
1. In response to verbal provocation alone; or
2. To resist an arrest that the person knows or should know is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, whether the arrest is lawful or unlawful, unless the physical force used by the peace officer exceeds that allowed by law; or
3. If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:
(a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and
(b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.
...


13-406. Justification; defense of a third person
A person is justified in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force against another to protect a third person if, under the circumstances as a reasonable person would believe them to be, such person would be justified under section 13-404 or 13-405 in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force to protect himself against the unlawful physical force or deadly physical force a reasonable person would believe is threatening the third person he seeks to protect.

...

13-408. Justification; use of physical force in defense of property
A person is justified in using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.
...
13-411. Justification; use of force in crime prevention; applicability
A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section 13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section 13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under section 13-1904 or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2.
B. There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section.
C. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if the person is acting to prevent what the person reasonably believes is the imminent or actual commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section.
D. This section includes the use or threatened use of physical force or deadly physical force in a person's home, residence, place of business, land the person owns or leases, conveyance of any kind, or any other place in this state where a person has a right to be.

Just to clarify for you. The law is a WHOLE lot more complicated than what you posted. That is all available at azleg.gov.
Please, continue on.

[Kevin Rohrer]

The outdoor range I belong to has that same, ridiculous rules, probably because its elderly president is anti-handgun. No guns in holsters, no drawing from a holster, etc. I ignore it and do both when I am alone.

[silverstang23]

We have a range close by that has the same stupid rule. I chose to ignore the rule and CC. If they ask me to leave, I will. It's private property and they have the right to make their own rules. In Georgia, it's not really a legal issue as long as you leave when asked.

[SCDeac82]

Someone commented earlier:

"For what? Criminals are not going to attack anywhere there might be armed people."

Ever hear of a guy named Chris Kyle? God rest his soul.

JB

[MarkDozier]

"Ever hear of a guy named Chris Kyle? God rest his soul."
Two man died that day. Why do you dishonor the other him by ignoring his name?

[Targa]

Very true. Just because he, Chad Littlefield, wasn't as well known certainly doesn't make his loss any less significant. I am guilty of forgetting that as well, I had to google the shooting to find Chad's name as the victim. I digress, IMO ranges our a prime target for trash like the one that killed Chris and Chad to strike. A bunch of people that you don't know armed and shooting right next to you. Kind of like camping in the woods next to others in a fabric tent without having a clue as to what kind of people they are and what they are capable of.
I like having a sidearm available for both situations and if I were asked to leave because of it, well I will leave.

[TailGator]

Routh, who confessed to killing Kyle and Littlefield, and was found guilty and is serving a life sentence, was a mentally ill veteran whom Kyle and Littlefield were trying to help. Reports are that both Kyle and Littlefield were armed with 1911s at the time they were killed, but neither drew or disengaged the safety. They had exchanged messages indicating that they were on their guard against Routh, but he apparently chose his moment successfully against very highly trained people. Sometimes you can do everything right and still get a bad result.

[Limnophile]

Stay safe and follow ALL posted signs included stop signs. Respect OTHER peoples rights not just the ones you think apply to you.

If a public accomodation has no right to free association, can it morally have a right to ban those who practice their natural right to possess and carry? On private property that does not cater to the public, one can discriminate as one wishes in regard with whom you want to associate with, but I can't see a moral framework that justifies selective discrimination and selective enforcement of civil rights in a public accomodation.