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September 2, 2014, 02:22 PM | #76 | |
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September 2, 2014, 02:28 PM | #77 | |
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JimDandy Wrote:
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"just following orders" is not an acceptable excuse, that was proven a long time ago. They are mere civilians, same as us, hired to do a job, same as us. They should be equally as accountable for their screw-ups, same as us.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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September 2, 2014, 02:37 PM | #78 | ||||||
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All the dash cam video means is that after the officer decided to stop OuTcAsT's son, there were no observed traffic violations. I would venture a guess that most people are quite careful about their driving when an officer is driving code behind them. This does not mean there is any additional evidence (beyond the officer's testimony) that OuTcAsT's son was violating traffic law, just that the assumption that the officer was lying is based on ignorance and probably bias as well. Quote:
As to any focus on making arrests as opposed to deterring crime, you've got it exactly backwards. The emphasis community policing model is relatively new to law enforcement, and 35 years ago, the actual stated emphasis would have been on making arrests. Nowadays virtually all local police departments emphasize community policing. Quote:
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If you were simply arguing that the police are also civilians and that they are no better than you, you would be on safe ground. Police officers have some forms of legal protection that you do not because they are agents of the state with legal obligations to do things that you are actually legally obligated not to do. Courts and legislatures have recognized that because police officers must make potentially fatal split-second decisions based on imperfect information, that as long as the officer's behavior was objectively reasonable based on the information the officer knew, the officer will have qualified immunity. Qualified immunity is not total immunity, and officers can still be personally liable if they acted unreasonably. Individual officers do not have some kind of absolute immunity to lawsuits or criminal penalties. Additionally, if you shoot someone by mistake, there is actually no guarantee that you will be charged, and if an officer shoots someone by mistake, there is no guarantee that he or she will not be charged- it has happened both ways depending on the circumstances. If you are interested in a world where the police are personally liable for civil suits incurred during the course of their reasonably performed legal duties, you are interested in a world where the police don't actually do anything, and in that case, I'm guessing you would be here with a very different complaint. Last edited by Madcap_Magician; September 2, 2014 at 02:58 PM. |
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September 2, 2014, 03:14 PM | #79 | |||
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Why go in at all? Make them come out. Quote:
And why do you need such except for felony murder/kidnapping/rape in progress type situations? |
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September 2, 2014, 03:31 PM | #80 | ||||
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Madcap_Magician Wrote:
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The judge also saw the verbal interaction after the stop, he commented that the officer had no justifiable reason for the stop.let alone the search request. It was an obvious lie under oath. Quote:
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You ask for "evidence" I believe any thinking adult, that is in my age group, (50+) can tell you from personal experience and simple observation that the mindset has changed drastically and, not for the better. Obfuscate all you like, whom do I believe ? You, or my lying eyes ?
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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September 2, 2014, 04:07 PM | #81 | |||
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BOOOM, BOOOOM, BOOOOM police search warrant BOOOOM. Yeah like you are going to be able to hear and follow their instructions. And that assumes that only ONE of them is yelling at you. One of the problems is that no knock warrants and the use of SWAT teams has become the norm not the exception in many jurisdictions. |
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September 2, 2014, 07:00 PM | #82 | |
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After the investigation the DA can and does frequently file charges. So the guy looses his job, benefits and retirement, can't get another job in the field that is likely his only option for a career and the gets sued in civil court and because of the findings of the investigation he will likely loose and be broke for life. No add jail time if he looses to the DA. Now if he was found to be within policy, he may still loose his job, and still go to civil court, but likely the municipality he works for will cover it. I worked IA so, I am pretty sure these things haven't changed in 10 years since my retirement. So, yes there is a higher standard and believe you me nobody want to go down for protecting a bad cop. For example if I know or should have known and do nothing about this bad behavior of either a peer or subordinate I am in as much trouble as he is. Part of the reason many guys just through the charges on the pile is they are covering their butt. I would always cover my but, period! Nobody is worth sacrificing my families future! Mel |
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September 2, 2014, 09:26 PM | #83 |
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Bobcat45, I agree with you.
But I do wonder how many British citizens were killed by "police" (the Kings Men) from the Boston massacre to the battle of Lexington (5 years) for no good reason. Then I wonder how many Americans have been wrongfully killed in the last 5 years by American Police. Clearly the point of no return has not yet come, but it’s not because there is less murder and battery being committed by government. |
September 2, 2014, 10:08 PM | #84 | ||||||
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The three general exceptions to the knock-and-announce rule are: 1. Officers have reason to suspect the threat of violence. 2. Officers have reason to suspect evidence will be destroyed if warning is given. 3. Residents are already aware of officer's presence and authority. Quote:
In my state we do this with marijuana-laced edibles, which is really kind of funny, because since brownies weigh so much more than just leaf marijuana, the brownies will actually get you in a ton more trouble. Quote:
What were you told by the officer's agency when you filed a complaint? Quote:
I then pointed out that there have been aggressive, corrupt, criminal, and/or rude police since the dawn of time. My point was that the existence of this minority subgroup of police officers is not prima facie evidence of the downward trend you claim. I further pointed out that theories of how policing should be conducted have over time grown more community-oriented, not less, and that many of the most rampant and wide-scale abuses by law enforcement are found in the past, not the present, and are the exception, not the rule. Quote:
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Even if you somehow managed to do that... you'll have only managed to implicate one in a thousand police officers, which is hardly grounds to make sweeping claims about what all, most, or even many cops are doing wrong, and says nothing about the relative frequency of abuse over time, for which you have still provided no evidence. Do you regularly judge groups of people by the actions of (let's generously allow that you did find 750 incidents of police misconduct) 0.001% of the group? That's certainly enough to indict CCW holders, or actually pretty much any group of people you care to name, as a bunch of psychotic loonies. |
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September 3, 2014, 06:28 AM | #85 | |||
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Madcap_Magician Wrote;
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I was not supplying anecdotes in lieu of "data", I merely used a couple of instances of personal experience to illustrate my opinion. Quote:
I have witnessed the change in my little corner of the world first hand, over many years and that "data" ( my perception) has shaped my opinion that the shift toward more heavy handed tactics has led to a huge rift in the public perception of law enforcement . I am clearly not alone in my perception, or my opinion. If I were, we would not be participating in this discussion nor, would it be on the forefront of almost every news agency and, water cooler discussion on an almost constant basis. Quote:
http://www.wkrn.com/story/12389244/1...rsuit-shooting Both officers were ultimately cleared of criminal charges. After that incident, the officer decided he would slap his ol' lady around a bit; http://www.lebanondemocrat.com/article/tldnews/152984 He is no longer with the department.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; September 3, 2014 at 08:25 AM. |
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September 3, 2014, 08:44 AM | #86 | ||
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In the shooting that followed, it looks like most or all of the error goes to the other officer, though, and that your officer was then dismissed following a criminal charge that would make it impossible to be a police officer. |
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September 3, 2014, 10:39 AM | #87 | |
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Madcap_Magician Wrote;
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You hire an employee to protect you and, wind up needing protection from him.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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September 4, 2014, 11:10 AM | #88 | |
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TCB
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September 4, 2014, 02:21 PM | #89 | |
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barnbwt Wrote;
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Justice ? Hardly.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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September 5, 2014, 10:44 AM | #90 |
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Wyosmith, I owe you an answer but have found the exchange between OuTcAsT and Madcap_Magician to be informative and though-provoking and didn't wish to distract.
You are right, the King's men killed a lot of subjects and the police kill - rightfully or wrongfully - people every day. Randy Weaver and the Branch-whatevers were not unique, stuff happens. I'm on both sides of this argument because I know police officers who I trust completely, who I'm honored to hang around with at the Highpower matches. I want them to have whatever hardware they need to keep them safe while they do their jobs. But I grew up in a place where the police were primarily blue-suited enforcers owned by the corrupt power structure. It was healthier to stay low, out of sight and beneath their notice, and too quiet to hear, than to speak up / stand up for what was right. This sounds craven (even to me!) but it is the way it was, and the way it still is in a lot of instances. Note that Patrick Henry, in the speech you alluded to, appealed to "Freedom" - but the Revolution was about taxes and essentially about the crown taking too much and giving nothing of value in return. It was about money. People don't take up arms for abstract ideals, they go to war to keep their "way of life" which means their livelihood - or to keep from being exterminated. Or, sometimes, to try to exterminate those who at one time "did them wrong" and who are now less powerful than they once were. Until and unless the "long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism" becomes clear to the populace at large, and is perceived by sufficient numbers as an actual menace, we will go along to get along, keep our heads down and try to stay out of trouble. I'll shut up now - if I go on I'll wind up banned from the site, and I kind of like hanging around with y'all so I don't want that to happen. |
September 5, 2014, 04:19 PM | #91 | |
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
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September 19, 2014, 06:25 PM | #92 |
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With the Islamic State in the news every day and knowing they might have several hundred fighters with passports that allow them to reach the United States let me ask...are you still against the police having a few armored vehicles and AR15s? I am one who strongly believes that at least the school administrators should have access to pistols and rifles. All officers should have access to an AR15 and military grade body armor. What happens when a fighter for the Islamic State comes to the school or some other evil character? When it happens many of you will change your tune...
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September 19, 2014, 07:48 PM | #93 |
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Been going on for a long time and the us against them the cops thinking changed them from peace officers to LEOs. That being said I have had some wonderful encounters with cops that have made me happy they were cops.
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September 19, 2014, 08:56 PM | #94 |
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Johnelmore, think Beslan. Westgate Mall. Mumbai.
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September 20, 2014, 08:14 AM | #95 | ||
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johnelmore wrote:
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IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN !!! Seriously, if such an event occurs, it will likely play out much like other "school shootings" The guy will commit an act of carnage, likely kill himself in the name of his "religion" and, LE will arrive after the fact, with armored vehicles, body armor, and AR-15s to take a body count and, have a press conference. Quote:
When seconds count...
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; September 20, 2014 at 08:23 AM. |
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September 21, 2014, 09:53 PM | #96 | |
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The only guns that will matter are those on scene when the incident starts. |
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