Philly OC'er held at gunpoint, charged

[MLeake]

Eagle Eye, it won't cost him a red cent. Activist groups and friendly attorneys seem to be picking up the tab.

[Eagle Eye]

M.Leake: Agreed. I missed that. I guess it will cost the taxpayers though. But maybe it will be worth it to help fix what appears to be a problem in the City of Brotherly Love.

[Glenn Dee]

bigbaby

Please read my entire post. From a tactical point of view, the Officer limited his own options, and placed everyone in a terrible situation. You suggested that the civilian may have had a second weapon in his hands. I submit thats very unlikely, and that much more likely he was an off duty, or pain clothed officer. But given your scenario... perhaps it would have been better if the uniformed officer waited, and observed the situation before making himself known, and lost the element of surprise?

My own opinion is that this, and any police officer has a responsibility to protect everyone in the store. Not just himself. I have no issue with the officer being first on the gun. I do however have a problem with his challange. If the civilian was a criminal, with armed criminal intent innocent people may have been hurt. Just poor tactics for the situation... But this is what happens when people recieve their training from TV and the movies.

Glenn

[bigbaby]

I certainly doubt the officer received his training from TV or the Movies! Even the poorest region will at least offer some training to the police? I hope. I read your post, Glen, all of it; especially the part where you assumed I was serious about shooting the poor guy in the legs LOL. I have to question anyones "arm chair tactics"(my tactics are arm chair too, since I am not a police officer of any kind!) that does not think that the first words of the officer must be "freeze" or "don't move or your dead" or something to let the "suspect" know he has a weapon trained on him with a cop weilding the weapon. If he had said that and still allowed the "suspect" to 'wheel' around, then he was an idiot. How can that be "tv tactics" you do not pull a weapon on someone from behind and fail to even identify yourself as a cop? His words were something like a kid would say in a playground or a school yard. I would like to hear from one actuall City Cop that thinks the intial tactics of this officer were sound. Approaching a suspect from behind, weapons drawn, no identification as a cop and calling the "suspect out like a school boy" Then allowing him to quickly turn around. OH YEAH GOOD TACTICS. I have to stop watching Law and Order, it must be muddling my brain.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Bigbaby - one thing you will learn here is that we don't make jokes about techniques of using lethal force.

The last LOL does come from the staff. That's a hint.

[csmsss]

If there were charges to be filed in this case, they should have been filed against the police officer - for his unprovoked and illegal assault upon the OC'r. If any citizen were to draw his firearm and point it at another citizen in such a manner, he or she would certainly be charged with a crime. The police officer has no special authority to point a weapon at anyone who is not posing a threat and is not breaking any laws.

In this case, the citizen had every legal justification for drawing his own weapon and shooting the police officer - and in fact was the victim of an assault and had no way of knowing how much further the officer might carry the assault.

The officer in this case is an exemplar of a troubling trait I see in more and more LEO's - the desire to obtain compliance and control in advance of identifying whether a crime is in process or has been committed. As a result, the incident is immediately and needlessly escalated into a potentially deadly situation because he didn't care to ascertain how the circumstances he found himself in corresponded to the law, or didn't care to do so and applied his own version of the law (which in my opinion is exactly what he chose to do).

[MLeake]

And he did it, claiming ignorance, despite the April 26 incident on Frankford, and the one earlier this year where an OC'er got hassled at the bus stop in Philadelphia.

Both made headline news, and were discussed for days in the media. Two media incidents this year, and the initiating officer had forgotten about the memo?

Yeah, right.

[pgdion]

OC is legal in MN too (it's not a concealed carry permit, it's simply a carry permit ... carry whatever you want, how ever you want) but they warn you not to OC for this reason. You will draw unwanted attention, you will get 'hassled' from the cops (lets face it, they will be obliged to at least check you out), and you can get charged for dis-orderly conduct for creating a scene. Yea it's technically legal, but if you do it your asking for headaches (I have enough of those already). Yes the cop should have known it was legal but still, in my opinion it wasn't worth it in the end. I'd rather not be stopped at all.

And Davey has it correct, just do what they say, keep your end clean, and you will easily win in court and get your revenge there.

[csmsss]

A question for the "just do what the cop says, let the courts handle it, etc." crowd - why is it acceptable for the po pos to infringe upon this right when we wouldn't dream of allowing them to shut us up, invade our homes, enslave us, etc.? Seems to me that, in states where OC is legal, it is as fundamental and important a right as any other we possess. Why are we so blithely conceding to the police the latitude to infringe upon it without consequence?

Just a question, is all.

[Edward429451]

That's a very good question csmsss. It will probably be answered with the cliche we want to go home to our families at night. Us citizens want to go home too.

I OC here in Colorado but honestly, I hide it from most people because I do not want to be hassled. Most of the younger cops have little reason, they only know thier rulebook, and that the brotherhood of officers will back them up if they make a mistake.

On it's face, comply with the officer and sort it out later seems to be a wise thing to do, safety-wise, but is it really? Does this not feed the perception that cops have the right of way so to speak, and that the citizen must stand down? I thought the cops were there to serve and protect me? I thought I was innocent until proven guilty? So why does the cops behavior tell a different story?

This is very touchy. No one wants to get shot by an over zealous cop, but if we continue to blindly comply as is suggested, then the country goes to hell and they'll treat us even worse.

[bigbaby]

Glen I respect your position as a TFL staff member. That said I ask here why, when your arguments fail, do you resort to insults('ignorant' 'TV and Movie tactics') and threats(TLF gets the last LOL)? It seems a poor way to make a point. My only point is that the officer did everything wrong from the first point untill right before he told the 'suspect' to get on his knees. From that point on the officer did everything correctly. He called for back up and did not use excessive force. He let the 'suspect' go once he was told he had gotten the legal point wrong. The DA with his "trumped up" charges is another matter. Oh yeah and the so called 'abusive' language used by the officer, is really just a way of intimadating the 'suspect' in order to help maintain control. It is fine and I am sure the fellow OCing will get over it. Bet he CC in Philly from here on out; I would LOL

[Glenn Dee]

bigbaby...

First off... There are two different Glenn's. I'm Glenn D... My buddy over there is Glenn E. Meyer

OK Back to tactics... A police officer has no control over what a person does with their body. He can order, instruct, cajole, request, demand, whine, suggest any commands he wants. A person will do what they want to do. This is no excuse to use deadly force. If an officer see's someone wearing a firearm, and he believes it to be illegal. And he orders that person on the ground. And that person has his hands in front of him holding something. And that person turns his body to see who's yelling so much. And that officer shoots the person holding a ham sandwich while he's wearing a firearm. Do you think that officer might have some splaining to do? What do you think is more likely the person have in his hand in a retail store?... A second gun?... or the ham sandwich? As a police Officer one cant arrest, shoot, assault, or do anything but have a conversation with someone based on what that person could do, or might do, or is capable of doing. As long as there has been no crime commited.

Again... I can see the Officer inquiering about the firearm. But just inquiering. If the officer thought there might be some danger involved ... he could have radioed in for another unit or two. Or he could have kept the subject under observation long enough to see what he was actually up to. Or he could have gotten up close on the subject, and covered him descretely. The police do NOT have some ultimate power of life and death. Actually when it comes to the police they have the exact same power over life and death as any other citizen. (except for the excaping felon statutes). The biggest difference is that for the most part the police are indemnified.

99% of policing is common sense mixed in with common courtesy. There was no reason to start this confrontation with a lot of yelling, and hoopla. Other than it looks cool, and thats what they did on that episode of cops that came on right after that new show manhunters.

Glenn D!

[hogdogs]

Oh yeah and the so called 'abusive' language used by the officer, is really just a way of intimadating the 'suspect' in order to help maintain control.

And intimidation of the suspect is good how? Maintaining or gaining control through intimidation is defined as terrorism or terroristic threats.

Also it only works on individuals who fear offensive language...

Had it been tried on me, I would face several charges! NO ONE BUT NO ONE cusses me with out merit and gets away with out me tellin' them what I think of their foul mouth and yes, mine can be just as foul!!!

It is fine and I am sure the fellow OCing will get over it. Bet he CC in Philly from here on out; I would LOL

So he don't have the right to exercise his legal options in your opinion?

And try this one on for size...
Lets say you or another citizen is legally carrying (concealed or open) and need to pull your weapon for a legit self defense scenario (officer drew for self defense, did he not) you opt to use the most vulgar of language and intimidating tone of voice... the situation is neutralized without gunfire...

You could face charges from the bad guy... could you not?
Now same situation... no gunfire required... 'cept this time you opt to use a calm clear voice void of any typical cuss/curse words and simply say... "I wouldn't do that if I were you, I am armed and will shoot if you leave me no other choice..." Which way will the witnesses portray to the detectives your need for self defense came across?

Now consider you actually shot the bad guy deader than a door nail... You face charges but have "justifiable homocide" as a legal defense... The DA has audio recordings and transcripts to hand to the jury. Would your defense be jeopardized by using profanity, intimidating voice and the I AM BETTER THAN YOU 'CUZ I AM ARMED attitude?

The officer has nothing protecting him from the same charges a citizen could face when he wrongly handles a situation... especially when the citizen has done nothing wrong.

If I am doing nothing wrong and an officer were to draw on me I would come unglued! I would only show him the respect he showed me and it will crush his little heart hiding behind his badge.

Brent

[bigbaby]

Sorry about the mix up Glen; that is my bad! I almost never side with the police and I am not here, but if the cop had identified himself as a police officer(he didn't) and the 'suspect' turned around after being told to freeze(he wasn't) and he was holding something in his hands and the cop shot him; he would probably be in the right, by the authorities estimate. Here in Baltimore there have been police shootings involving no weapons, but where the officer thought there was a weapon and the officers have not been charged. This has happened over the years I have lived here(42 years) and not recently, to my knowledge, so I can not back up the assertion with a link. For the record Glen, I don't watch Cops, or Manhunter(never even heard of that) or any other reality or police shows except an occasional Law and Order(they are hard to avoid LOL) If I want to see cops bullying Citizens I can just look out my window or sit on my porch; it's Baltimore man LOL we just had 200, not 20, 200 police officers caught up in a corruption probe.

[zxcvbob]

The officer has nothing protecting him from the same charges a citizen could face when he wrongly handles a situation... especially when the citizen has done nothing wrong.

If I am doing nothing wrong and an officer were to draw on me I would come unglued! I would only show him the respect he showed me and it will crush his little heart hiding behind his badge.

And he will shoot you. And he will get away with it because this is Philadelphia. (He might even get a medal for being so brave)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

OK, folks - reading the tenor of the last few posts we have descended into cop bashing as compared to the incident. Folks are attacking a class of persons in general.

No cop bashing. Someone being incorrect doesn't generalize to the whole profession - usual warning.

I cautioned against that - so Closed.