New Reloader Feeling Overwhelmed

[gungho]

So I'm in need of some advice. I'm a new to reloading. Got a Lee anniversary single stage reloading press for Christmas and 9mm Luger die set.

I went out and purchased the Sierra 5th edition manual. I also picked up The ABCs of Reloading last night.

I want to reload for my two 9mm Lugers, a Kel-Tec P-11 and Taurus Pt 24/7.

The part that I'm having trouble with the most is trying to determine an OAL suitable for both handguns.

My Sierra manual lists 1.169" as the maximum OAL for 9mm Luger. It also lists that they use a 1.050" OAL for 115 GR. JHP (which are the bullets I'm reloading currently as they were the only ones my local gun store had).

I was told to take the barrels out of the guns, and drop some dummy rounds (no primer or powder) into the barrels and that will determine my OAL. However, I wasn't told what to look for when I do that.

I watched a couple of videos on YouTube that said to use a factory grade 9mm Luger and adjust my seating die to mimic that round. Is that safe?

Any help and advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[overkill0084]

Just my opinion.
Stay above the Min OAL for your bullet but below the Max OAL. By the way, your particular guns and magazines may have their own opinion as to MAX OAL as well. Stay in recommended spec for your bullet and life will be good. If it were me I would set the OAL at between 1.055 & 1.06. 9mm bullets don't seat that deep anyway, I want more bullet in the brass rather than less. Within safe limits of course.

[gungho]

So the max is set by the SAAMI specs for 1.169" and the minimum is what the manual used?

[Brian Pfleuger]

What you're looking for in the barrel test is that the round drops smoothly into the barrel and does not sit above the barrel hood.

Basically, it should look like the round on the right in this picture. You probably want the round to sit about .002-.003 below flush. This is determined by the case length for 9mm Luger. The resized case, with or without a bullet, should sit just like that. If you put a bullet in the case and it makes the round stick out farther, it means the bullet is touching the rifling and your round is too long.




As a novice, you should start with the length listed in the manual for your bullet, so long as it works in your gun. After you have some time in and you have a better understanding of what exactly is happening and why, then you can adjust.

[gungho]

Thanks peet! That's very helpful.

Should the bullet spin easily if I try to turn it by hand while it is inside the barrel?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Yeah, pretty much. There shouldn't be much resistance.

[4runnerman]

I second what peet says.and with 9MM remember it's a small case with a lot of powder.be very cautious when loading these,they are not as forgiving as 45 ACP is. Your powder load has to be very accurate or results could be Hazardous to your health. Good Luck and Welcome to reloading

[gungho]

Okie dokie. I'll work up a dummy round and make sure it does just that! Then if that works, I'll load a 10 rounds at the minimum charge listed, then another 10 at .2 gr. increase until I find the load that works best (without going over maximum charge listed)!

Much appreciated advice. I was seriously about to start wondering if this reloading business was worth the time and effort, I know it'll be worth it economically.

[4runnerman]

Much appreciated advice. I was seriously about to start wondering if this reloading business was worth the time and effort, I know it'll be worth it economically

Nothing bad here,but if you shoot a lot you will save if not it is more a wash in 9MM. They are very cheap to buy. The one thing you might get is a much more accurate load and the satisfaction that you made this load yourself.

[44 AMP]

9mm Luger is far from a very forgiving round to load for. Minor variations in seating depth can change the pressure drastically. If there is a recommended OAL for a specific bullet, use that. The SAAMI max length is a standard for the guns, basically. Some guns magazines will not take long loaded bullets, some chambers won't either. They should all take loads to SAMMI spec, but no longer.

Bullet nose profile makes a difference in loading. Load a JHP close or to max OAL, and then change to a FMJ (with a pointy nose) and without adjusting the seating die, you may have rounds too long to work through the magazine.

Any time you change anything (powder charge, bullet seating depth, bullet profile, even brands), you should work up your loads carefully all over again, to be safe.

[SL1]

The max length that you can use can be limited by a few different things:

1. The maximum length that will fit in your magazines without binding;
2. The maximum length that can fit in your chamber without the bullet hitting against the rifling in the barrel and keeping the case from fully entering the chamber;
3. The maximum length that can RELIABLY feed from the magazine automatically when the gun is fired.

I start with #1 and work my way to #3. Depending on the barrel, bullet design and feed ramp, any one of the 3 may be the shortest.

There is one more factor that has to do with bullet shape: there must be enough bullet shank inside the case to give a good enough grip the that bullet stays aligned with the axis of the case during the automatic feed process, which slams the bullet against the feed ramp at an angle with some force.

The minimum length is a little more tricky.

The length listed in the data is what produced the SAAMI peak pressure limit for the maximum charge listed. If you go shorter than that, you may very well get higher peak pressures than the data indicate. Longer gives lower peak pressures. It may not seem obvious, but differences of 0.01 inch can make SUBSTANTIAL peak pressure differences in small, high pressure rounds like the 9mm Luger. The reason is a combination of the facts that there is a pretty small amount of space left for the powder in the case under the bullet (so a small change in length becomes a significant change in space for the powder) and that smokelss powder burns faster and faster as the pressure increases (so pressure increase is much greater than the "perfect gas law" would suggest for volume changes).

It is UNLIKELY that you would need to seat a bullet more deeply than indicated in the bullet manufacturer's data, so let's not worry about that at this point in your learning process. IF it turns-out to be an issue with your two guns, ask about it again and we can point you to a method for dealing with that by calculating a reduction in the maximum powder charge.

But, for the reasons just discussed, you MUST also be careful that the bullet doesn't get pushed deeper into the case during the feed cycle. That is called "set-back." It can happen when the case mouth does not grip the bullet tightly enough. And, it doesn't matter whether you intentionally seated the bullet too deeply or it got shoved there during the feed cycle, because pressure goes up in either situation.

You can test that the bullet is held tightly enough by a few methods. Some will recommend pushing the bullet in a loaded round against the bench and comparing before and after enght measurements, but it is hard to calibrate the amount of force used in the test to the amount needed. Others will tell you to make a dummy round and hand-cycle it through your action(s) to see if the length changes, but that really isn't as much of a push as the round would get when auto-fed from firing a live round. To me, the best test at your stage of learning is to make the dummy round, load it in the magazine below a factory round, fire the factory round to auto-feed the dummy into your chamber, and then eject the dummy carefully so that it doesn't fall to the ground or hit something to hard. The before and after measurements from that test will tell you if your handloads will have set-back or not when you actually fire them.

On more thing to be careful about: brass from different manufacturers may have different wall thinknesses at the case mouth, and, depending on the exact tolerances of your sizing die, the thin ones may (or may not) have substantially less grip on the bullet than the thick ones. So, the set-back test really needs to be run on cases from each manufacturer that you are using, at least until you get a feel for what brand(s) give you trouble. Often, Remington pistol cases have unusually thin mouths and you will find some posts on this forum about the problems they have created for SOME folks, while others have no problem with them.

Be warned that bullet grip in cases like the 9mm canNOT be increased significantly by increasing the crimp. Cartridges like the 9mm use the mouth of the case to "headspace" against a step decrease in the diameter of the chamber (actually, the front end of the chamber). So, a roll-crimp can't be used, and a taper-crimp is used instead. Using too much taper crimp actually LOOSENS the bullet, because the die squeezes both the case mouth and the bullet inside to smaller diameters, and then the brass case springs-back a little while the lead in the bullet does not.

You want just enough taper crimp to smooth-out the flare that you needed to put on the case mouth to get the bullets to seat smoothly.

Be careful, ask questions, and have fun.

SL1

[maillemaker]

Here is what I have been doing to find the right bullet depth for .45ACP. Now I am a brand new reloader, so do not take this as gospel.

I found an experience reloader here in town, and asked him about OAL, as I also was confused about it. He said he just pressed them in until "they looked right". Now I was thinking, "OK, how do you know what looks right?" Well, when you do it, you will see what they are talking about.

Both 9mm and 45 ACP headspace on the case mouth. This means that there is a rim down inside the chamber of your barrel, and the case mouth sits on that rim - that's what keeps it from falling down farther in the chamber.

What I'm pretty sure this means is that when you press your bullet into the case, no shoulder from the wide part of your bullet should be visible above the case mouth. Because if it does, it may well catch on the rim in your chamber and keep the bullet from headspacing properly!

Here is an example: When I first drove a bullet home, trying to do it by OAL (I used a factory 230 grain bullet to try and set the depth of my bullet seating die). Look at the bullet on the far left:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bullets/P1010197.JPG

Clearly this bullet is not seated deeply enough as the shoulder of the bullet is still visible above the rim. So I adjusted my seating depth until that shoulder was just flush with the case mouth. OAL ends up whatever it ends up (It was within the specs for .45ACP.

Since 9mm headspaces the same way, I would think this rule of thumb would apply there also.

But you should get confirmation from an expert before taking my advice. I'm brand new at this myself.

Steve

[lee n. field]

I watched a couple of videos on YouTube that said to use a factory grade 9mm Luger and adjust my seating die to mimic that round. Is that safe?

I'd pick up a pair of calipers. The Lyman dial caliper has served me well for over a decade.

[engineermike]

I'm betting that each pistol will like a different COL. You may want to load a few round at 1.160, 1.150, 1.140, 1.130, and 1.120. and shoot them through your guns and see which one is most accurate. Then adjust your powder weight for your bullet. The COL, once you find it for the gun will be constant but the powder weight will change with each bullet weight and type of bullet. Guns like certain COL's and they also like certain bullets. You just have to use a little trial and error but once you find the one you and your gun/s like you'll be in business. As always, start at the lower end of the powder weight list for the powder you are using and work your way up.

[SL1]

I have to disagree a little with Eingineermike about the best COL being constant for a particular pistol. When bullet nose shapes differ substantially, feed reliability for the different bullets can require different COLs in the same pistol, even for the same bullet weights. this can be especially true in the 9mm Luger, where there are many differently shaped bullets available for the many different 9mm cartridges like the .380, .38 Super and 357 Sig.

SL1

[gregjc9]

Gungho, I settled on an OAL of 1.156" for my 9s, and it works very well in all of them. You do have to watch the OAL and adjust the seating depth in your die if/when you change bullet mfgrs, even if you stay with the same bullet type (e.g. Round Nose).

Get a good set of digitial (my preference) caliper, and start out with a long OAL to make a dummy round. Drop it in the chamber and if it doesnt fall out when the barrel is tipped upside down, it's too long. It will also stick past the barrel hood.

Here's a thread of mine when I went through the same thing. Look at the pic in the first post. It does a good job of showing what you want to achieve.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432982

[gungho]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I have a digital micrometer. Works the same as a caliper, correct?

Only thing I worried about at using different lengths is figuring out the charge needed.

In my Sierra 5th edition it listed the OAL for their 115 gr. JHP as 1.050". Their starting load for Titegroup with such a short OAL was 3.5 gr.

I've read a lot about how seating the bullet deeper or shorter will affect the pressure. Is there a mathematical formula for figuring out how to adjust the powder when you make the bullet longer?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Your best bet is to find and use data for your exact bullet (not just "jhp" but EXACT same bullet) and use the length listed.

Alternatively, if you know the length of both their bullet and yours, you can adjust the OAL so the seating depth is the same.... if the resulting round is acceptable in your gun.

[rattletrap1970]

Get a case length gauge for every straight walled pistol cartridge you load for (Cartridges that space on the case mouth). These little gauges are invaluable and inexpensive. Wilson makes them along with other manufacturers. If it fits and is flush or slightly below.. You're good.

[SL1]

gungho,

In response to your question about adjusting the charge weight for a COL that is different from the COL in the data you have:

Yes, there are several methods. The easiest to understand and use is to make the ratio of powder weight to powder space the same for a bullet loaded to the COL in the data and for a bullet loaded to the COL you want to use.

To do that, you need to be able to MEASURE the powder space in YOUR cases AFTER they are fired in YOUR gun. That is done by weighing an empty case, then filling it with water so that the water surface is FLAT across the case mouth and weighing it again. The difference in weight is the WATER CAPACITY of your fired case. To get the powder space with a particular bullet, you need to first calculate the distance that bullet is seated into your case. That is the length of your case plus the length of you bullet minus the COL for your loaded round. That is called the seating depth. Since cases vary somewhat in length, it is important that you measure the length of the SAME case that you used to measure the water capacity. (It is also most accurate if you have the same brand of cases as used to generate the data, but that is USUALLY not a big issue with 9mm cases.)

To get the space in the case occupied by the bullet, you need to calculate the area of the bullet's base and multiply that by the seating depth. The area of a 9mm bullet's base is 0.355-inch x 0.355-inch ÷ 4 x 3.1416 = 0.0990-square-inches. Multiplying that by the seating depth in fraction of an inch will give you the amount of case volume that the bullet displaces in cubic inches. Multiplying that volume in cubic inches by 252.8 will convert cubic inches to grains of water, which is how you measured the case volume. Subtracting the grains of water displaced by the bullet gives you the powder space as measured in grains of water.

Now do the same calculation for the bullet seated to the COL in the data. First, let's assume it is the SAME bullet. To keep the pressure about the same as the data, you want to keep the "loading density" the same. The loading density for a specific powder is proportional to the ratio of powder charge weight to the powder space, so you just need to keep the ratio of charge weight to powder space in grains of water the same. In case you or another reader is algebra-challenged, that is:

[adjusted charge wieght] = [data charge weight] ÷ [data powder space] x [powder space with your COL]

Remember, this assumes you are using the SAME powder as the data.

This method also gives you a way to adjust your charge weight when you are using a different bullet OF THE SAME WEIGHT but a different length than what you have data for. But, then you need to do the calculation for the powder space in the data using the length of the bullet in the data. You may not actually have a sample of the bullet in the data, but there are lists of bullet lengths on the Internet, and somebody on this forum probably has some that they could measure for you if you ask.

When using this method, please realize that it is not exact. It tends to over-predict pressure as the COL gets shorter than the data and under-predict pressure when the COL gets longer. For changes of around 1/10th inch in COL in the 9mm, you should be able to use it safely, PROVIDED THAT YOU ALWAYS START WITH THE "START" CHARGE AND WORK-UP. When the powder space changes get large, the non-linear aspects of the process need to be accounted for, so don't try to do somethink like adapt .380 or 357 Sig data to your 9mm Luger with this method.

SL1

[Brian Pfleuger]

^^^^

Or you can just do


(Their OAL - their bullet length) + (Your bullet length) = your OAL with same powder space.




For example: The book shows OAL of 1.050. The Sierra JHP 115gr 9mm bullet is (supposed to be) .514 long.

So, the case under the bullet is .536 inches.

Your bullet, if it's not a Sierra, may be longer or shorter.... let's say it's .525, just for example....

Take the .536 add the .525 of your bullet and you have an OAL of 1.061. Max length for 9mm is 1.169, correct? You're well under that in my example.

Make a dummy one using this math and see if it fits your gun. If so, load em up.

[700cdl]

If your loading with a slow buring powder it is a rather forgiving round. Seat them at recomended depth and if they aren't too long for the mag. and are chambering / feeding OK you've got it. I've loadee for many different9s and never got all wound up with seating depth other than staying at recomended. I like Longshot for 9mm becuase it is nice and slow making impossible to drop a double charge, and performs quite well accuracy and velocity wise.

[engineermike]

I don't know that I agree with SL1 but I see his point. I've loaded only flat nosed bullets in my Springfield 40, but have loaded round and flat in my 9mm. I had this all worked out in my first 9mm but I sold that one and have a new one but have yet found a proper COL or powder load. I do know that the load I had for the first 9mm, a Ruger P95, was a little too snappy (My opinion) for the Walther pps I have now. (Full Sized 9 versus a compact) But when the weather gets a little wormer I'll go through the whole process again with the COL and I know I am going to have to go a little lighter on the powder load.
SL1, I'll load a few round and a few flat nosed and see if there is a difference between the two loads when it comes to the COL. and accuracy. I also will start measuring the length of my bullets and not just the diameter and see what might be the difference. (So that's what I bought that micrometer for)(Actually I have three)

But if gungho will start at the low end of the powder range for his bullet/s he should not have any problem with over pressures while adjusting his COL.

[stu925]

2. The maximum length that can fit in your chamber without the bullet hitting against the rifling in the barrel and keeping the case from fully entering the chamber

Ran into this over the summer with a friends XD, my reloads worked flawlessly in my Kimber at Max OAL, but in his XD the bullets were being shoved into the rifling and not allowing the slide to go completely into battery. Every chamber is different.

Stu

[Jim243]

Let's try to make this simple. Start out with a COL of 1.100 for your overall cartrage length for 9mm. That is half way between 1.050 and 1.150. It is a safe setting. If you feel confortable with 1.090 that is ok too.

The concern on overpressure is do to the SPACE INSIDE THE CARTRAGE. Bullets seated too deep will increase the amount of pressure developed. To reduce this you can 1) use less powder than MAX for the load, or 2) make your OAL longer and leave more space in the case.

Each bullet mfg has their own design for their bullets and each will vary a little from the next. 9mm is .355 inches in diamiter and all 9mm's should meet this standard no matter who makes it. As to length that will vary based on weight of bullet. (115 grain, 124 grain or 147 grains). Since the width has to be .355 no matter what, you can only add weight by makeing the bullet longer. (but the base of the bullet still has to leave the same amount of space inside the case) Pressure must remain under the max pressure that the weapon is made for. You will notice that as the weight of the bullet goes up the amount of powder used goes down.

Since FMJ bullets are longer than JHP you will set the OAL about 0.02 futher out JHP = 1.09-1.10 OAL FMJ = 1.11 - 1.120 The reason your manual lists the MAX OAL for 9mm is 1.169 is that anything longer will not fit in your magazine, probably an OAL for 147 grain bullets.

Semi-Auto pistols index on the mouth of the case not the bullet, the bullet is actually smaller than the diamiter of the barrel. When you fire the gun the bullet will expand to the width of the barrel and seal itself to the rifling to spin the bullet. The case will expand to seal the chamber and push everything out the front of the barrel. Your case needs to be the right size, if too short you will have a headspace problem (gas escapes back at you) as shown in the left picture on Peetza's post. If too long you will have a problem with the case being too long and your gun will not go into "full battery" and if your firing pin hits the primer while you slide in not fully closed, you will have a gun that will blow up and force the hot gases into your magazine and blow peices off of both you and the gun.

If you use Peetza's method of checking your rounds for correct OAL you will have no problems. If you have a case that is too short, throw it away, if too long then trim it to the right length. I have loaded thousands of 9mm with no problems by following these rules.

Good luck and have fun
Jim