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Old February 27, 2022, 12:29 PM   #1
cuha375
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Is the caliber I'm using enough stopper?

How do you know this ?

Are ballistic gel tests really enough to better understand this ?

And what caliber will stop a criminal escaping by car ? (for the law enforcement)

Is there a test that can better answer these questions ?


Yup. I did. Do you think this test will work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=208L...ature=youtu.be


This is a simulation made in the game called Armadillo Run.
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Last edited by cuha375; February 27, 2022 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Explain2
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Old February 27, 2022, 12:44 PM   #2
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There are almost zero situations where almost anyone should even consider shooting at anyone escaping in a car.
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Old February 27, 2022, 01:34 PM   #3
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There are almost zero situations where almost anyone should even consider shooting at anyone escaping in a car
Ignorant civilians who have seen too much screen fiction sometimes do that unlawfully, but sworn officers know not to try.
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Old February 27, 2022, 01:51 PM   #4
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What the heck did I just watch?

Law enforcement can indeed be justified shooting at a fleeing suspect. Regular civilians too depending on the circumstances.

A twelve-gauge slug will usually do the trick through auto glass and sheet metal.

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Old February 27, 2022, 02:17 PM   #5
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Law enforcement can indeed be justified shooting at a fleeing suspect.
If, and only if,
  • The suspect has committed a particularly heinous crime
  • The officer actually observed the crime being committed
  • The shooting takes place immediately after the crime is committed
  • There is compelling reason to believe that the suspect will, if not stopped immediately. kill or injure other innocent, and
  • There is no other way to prevent the escape of the suspect.

That would be a very rare circumstance. Radio, rotorcraft, tire strips, etc. provide effective ways of stoping a suspect.

Shooting at the driver of a car moving away would almost always be a non-starter due to public safety issues.
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Old February 27, 2022, 04:27 PM   #6
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Why doesn't someone shoot at a glass at a 40 degree angle ? And why doesn't he/she record it with a slow mo camera and share it on Youtube ?
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Old February 27, 2022, 04:43 PM   #7
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I’m just hoping that I never find out.
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Old February 27, 2022, 05:00 PM   #8
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There's a wealth of information out there about shooting thru glass and particularly windshields. If I remember correctly there's even a law enforcement round that is designed to minimize deflection when shot through glass...Federal I think.

Here's a few links I found.
https://zerocant.com/?p=503
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVx5uYYIBy4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0l9QRyoRgI
https://www.tactical-life.com/lifest...through-glass/
https://www.hornadyle.com/resources/...-through-glass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS9918S5pHw
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Old February 27, 2022, 05:45 PM   #9
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I've read them all now. But none of them have done exactly what I wanted yet.
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Old February 27, 2022, 07:28 PM   #10
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Yeah, I rarely get exactly what I want either.
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Old February 28, 2022, 05:08 AM   #11
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While shooting at someone escaping in a car might be a bad idea, there could be a defensive need to shoot through a car body or window that is justified.

During an attempted carjacking you may need to shoot through glass from the inside out to defend yourself. If someone trying to run me over in a car I'd be justified to shoot through the windshield to defend myself, and if someone were trying to kidnap a family member, I'd shoot through a car to prevent them from getting away.

Caliber isn't as important as the bullet choice.
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Old February 28, 2022, 06:23 AM   #12
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Well. Materials needed for this job.


1- Guns of various calibers.

2- fmj and jhp/sp cartridges for these guns.

3- A safe land.

4- One car.

5- 100+ car windows. (Made for this car.)

6- Slow motion camera.

7- Ten plastic mannequin.

8- And someone who is a member of youtube.
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Old February 28, 2022, 10:36 AM   #13
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Surely our members are aware that defensive ammunition that meets FBI protocols will perform effectively after penetrating auto glass.
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Old February 28, 2022, 11:12 AM   #14
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What if a bear is driving away in your car?
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Old February 28, 2022, 11:44 AM   #15
cuha375
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Yup. A study was conducted on auto glasses in FBI protocols.

"One piece (15" X 18") of A.S.I. 1/4 inch laminated automobile safety glass is set at an angle of 45" to the horizontal and 15" to the side, resulting in a compound angle. The gelatin block is placed 18 inches behind the glass. This test event simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle."

But the windshield of the car is more solid. And there is no work on it yet.

https://www.hornadyle.com/resources/fbi-test-protocol
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Old February 28, 2022, 11:57 AM   #16
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One piece (15" X 18") of A.S.I. 1/4 inch laminated automobile safety glass is set at an angle of 45" to the horizontal and 15" to the side, resulting in a compound angle. The gelatin block is placed 18 inches behind the glass. This test event simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle."

But the windshield of the car is more solid. And there is no work on it yet.
Car windshields are made from A.S. I. 1/4 inch laminated automobile safety glass.

The angle of the test barrier makes it obvious that the test simulates shooting through a windshield.
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Old February 28, 2022, 12:38 PM   #17
cuha375
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Yup. I agree with you.

But did they (the FBI) shoot these tests with a slow motion camera ?

And did every caliber really succeed ?

Which is the most successful caliber ?

My goal is to learn the best caliber in this regard. And I really don't know either. My goal is to create "a ranking" for it.
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Old February 28, 2022, 01:10 PM   #18
cuha375
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Yup. It's closed for me.


Thanks everyone.
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Old February 28, 2022, 02:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Surely our members are aware that defensive ammunition that meets FBI protocols will perform effectively after penetrating auto glass.
I certainly AM aware of the FBI protocols and posted SEVERAL links of the 'bullets thru glass' scenario and my name is NOT Shirley.
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Old February 28, 2022, 04:46 PM   #20
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I certainly AM aware of the FBI protocols and posted SEVERAL links of the 'bullets thru glass' scenario and my name is NOT Shirley.
Dale. please tak ethis as a constructive suggestion.

Posting five or so links that requires interest people to open and digest communicates very little.

That can be helpful, but it is always far more useful to also include brief ,clear statements on what one wishes to get across.

In this case, it is that the FBI protocols cover windshield penetration
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Old February 28, 2022, 05:34 PM   #21
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Uhmmm...okay.
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Old March 1, 2022, 01:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkeypete View Post
What if a bear is driving away in your car?
Those dang circus trained bears are a menace . . .
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Old March 1, 2022, 06:42 AM   #23
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Caliber:
22/25/32 - its all you have, or are physically limited (can't tolerate more recoil), otherwise do better.
380 - its all you have. or are physically limited, couple HP bullet offerings penetrate at least 12'' and consistently expand - pick one of those. 380 FMJ can be over penetrative, fact not feels.
9mm/357Sig/40/45 - one of these with a good HP is preferred. 45 with FMJ can be overpenetrative (fact) so 45 FMJ doesn't get a pass unless you run out of HP.
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Old March 1, 2022, 09:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleA View Post
There's a wealth of information out there about shooting thru glass and particularly windshields. If I remember correctly there's even a law enforcement round that is designed to minimize deflection when shot through glass...Federal I think.

Here's a few links I found.
https://zerocant.com/?p=503
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVx5uYYIBy4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0l9QRyoRgI
https://www.tactical-life.com/lifest...through-glass/
https://www.hornadyle.com/resources/...-through-glass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS9918S5pHw

With reference to the last video, I’ve taken two vehicle courses with Kyle Lamb now and shot through a half dozen or more windshields between those and other courses. The only consistent thing I’ve seen is inconsistency. The deviation on bullets fired to even the front of the hood can be as little as inches or measured in feet. What Lamb and us as a class could tell is that the more rounds you fire the larger the hole you open in the windshield. As this hole gets bigger the chances of successive shots hitting that glass and deviating from the point of aim continues to go down. Those first few shots are practically anyone’s guess. Be prepared to need to fire a number of shots (we seemed to settle on 5 shots as being enough for some rounds to actually get on target). This was with FMJ and HP. Lamb liked Hornady Critical Duty, though we saw good performance with Speer Gold Dot. We actually did see jacket separation on non-bonded HP.


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Old March 1, 2022, 12:33 PM   #25
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Quote:
Is the caliber I'm using enough stopper?

Are ballistic gel tests really enough to better understand this ?
Nope. Ballistics gel is nothing better than an idealized and hypothetical best case scenario using a tissue simulant that is actually nothing like the tissue it simulates except in basic overall average non-bone density. It tells you most about how well the bullet is apt to expand in a perfect sort of situation. Depending on the particular gel, it may or may not accurately represent the correct amount of penetration that may be attained in an ideal situation. With enough tests, it should tell you how stable the bullet is passing through the medium, whether it flies straight or is apt to veer off course, but again, this is in an ideal situation that does not actually mimic living tissue.

Ballistics gel is meant to be a consistent and uniform medium, a control standard by which evaluations can be made that throws out all of the nasty real world variables like whether or not your target is moving, different tissue densities, amorphous versus fibrous tissues, bone (thick bone, thin bone, deflection from bone, damage to bullets striking bone at various angles, etc. Yeah, I know some folks will buy a side of ribs an place it just so in front of the gel, or place a random bone or two inside the gel and see what happens for what is usually a singular example, but these are limited tests only. Sometimes, they use a simulated bone material inside a simulated tissue gel to up the reality of the simulation, LOL. These tests with bones that brought me the most laughter is when I see these guys using obviously sun bleached or boiled bone they have found somewhere out on the ground, which isn't a good choice because sun bleached or boiled bone is actually structurally different from living bone. This altered bone is actually much more brittle, less elastic, and less dense than living bone.

Also, gel tests tell you nothing about actual "stopping power" (if this concept is acceptable as a real thing) as the power of stopping reside not in the bullet or the gel, but in the living creature being shot that is to be stopped. While the gel gives you some idea of how well the bullet may expand or penetrate in an ideal situation, it does not tell you whether or not that expansion or penetration will necessarily produce the desired stop in real life. The general consensus is that expanding bullets tend to do more damage than non expanding bullets and more damage tends to equate with and increased ability to produce a stop more quickly, but these are nothing but generalities and not any sort of hard and fast laws of nature.

Gel tests will not tell you if the hydraulic shock produced is enough to produce a stop with a given shot.

Gel tests will not tell you if there is hydrostatic shock and if that shock will produce a stop in a given shot. Hydrostatic shock, in and of itself, it not even consistently produced in a manner to produce a stop in people/animals that have been shot. We know it is not likely to be produced with most pistol shots and that with rifle shots, that it is at best, is inconsistent, even with calibers such as .308

Gel tests will not tell you if your given shot will create enough expansion for a bullet to clip the aorta as is passes just missing the heart or not.

Gel tests will not tell you how fast the lungs will collapse or fill with blood.

Gel tests don't take into account whether or not the person you are shooting is adrenalized or stoned beyond the point of even realizing s/he has been shot.

Gel tests do not tell you how long it will take for a person to bleed out.

Again, all of this stuff happens inside a living animal inside of a real situation for which gel tests are NOT a simulant.

Bottom line, if you are a subscriber to the notion of "stopping power," there is not gel test that will actually serve as a reliable predictor for stopping power. Despite the dramatic slow motion videos of temporary wound cavities produced in fairly small blocks of gelatin that look absolutely horrifically devastating, the gel block expanding very briefly by as much as a factor of 2, you pretty much never see that same result in the shooting of real animal tissue unless you are shooting tiny animals.
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