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Old November 28, 2022, 04:48 AM   #1
JesseGDeluca
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An out-of-State licensee

May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?
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Old November 28, 2022, 06:46 AM   #2
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What is a licensee? If across state lines, it must go to an FFL in the receiving state, for a "documented transfer. Likewise, the licensee(?) must transfer it back to you via his state's FFL back to an FFL in your state to you. Suggest, as a minimum, you review your states gun laws.
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Old November 28, 2022, 08:18 AM   #3
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If a firearms transfer is to happen between residents of different states, an FFL must be involved, per federal law.
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Old November 28, 2022, 09:26 AM   #4
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Both ends? or just the receiver?
(assuming the rec'g FFL would accept from a non-FFL sender)
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Old November 28, 2022, 11:57 AM   #5
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Quote:
JesseGDeluca May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee,
Yes, as long as your state has no prohibition on you shipping a firearm.


Quote:
or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him?
Only if the receiving dealer requires it.


Quote:
May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?
Federal law allows the direct return of a repaired or replacement firearm of the same kind or type to the person who shipped it for repair. Again, your state may have additional restrictions.
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Old November 28, 2022, 11:59 AM   #6
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PolarFBear What is a licensee?
If you don't know, maybe hold off on any reply.
A "licensee" is someone licensed to deal or manufacture firearms. An "FFL" means Federal Firearms Licensee, and those who hold that are referred to as "licensees" by ATF.

Quote:
If across state lines, it must go to an FFL in the receiving state, for a "documented transfer. Likewise, the licensee(?) must transfer it back to you via his state's FFL back to an FFL in your state to you.
Not according to federal law/ATF regulations.

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Suggest, as a minimum, you review your states gun laws.
Always.
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Old November 28, 2022, 12:28 PM   #7
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DogTownTom, thanks so very much for the cogent feedback. Yes a FFL is a licensee. And so is a Concealed Hand Gun Carry Permit which designates me as a Licensee. Vocabulary is an art of many definitions.
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Old November 28, 2022, 12:45 PM   #8
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having a concealed hangun permit doesnt make you a federal firearm licensee or any kind of federal licensee
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Old November 28, 2022, 01:27 PM   #9
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Dogtown Tom, and heyjoe...good posts.
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Old November 28, 2022, 02:15 PM   #10
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If across state lines, it must go to an FFL in the receiving state, for a "documented transfer. Likewise, the licensee(?) must transfer it back to you via his state's FFL back to an FFL in your state to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Not according to federal law/ATF regulations.
Could you clarify which part "Not according to federal law/ATF regulations." refers to, "must go to FFL in receiving state" or "must transfer it back to you via an FFL in your state"? And could you cite the applicable regulation? Thanks!
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Old November 28, 2022, 04:15 PM   #11
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"licensee" is someone licensed
Beyond that, it is a matter of context.

In this case where the subject is shipment of firearms across state lines, the license required is an FFL (Federal Firearms License).

as I understand it, Federal law requires your firearm to be received by an FFL in a different state. FEDERAL law does allow your long gun to be sent directly back to you (after repair work, etc) , without having to be sent to an FFL in your state.

HOWEVER, there are state and other laws that MIGHT require that, and as I understand it, if its a handgun it has to go FFL to FFL under federal law.

In my state, currently, every "transfer", including returning your own property to you (and in state!) requires going through an FFL dealer by state law.

The best thing to do, is go to an FFL in your state, pay the fee and have them handle all the paperwork and shipping details.

Also, be aware that there are some FFL dealers who will neither ship to, or accept firearms from non FFL license holders as a matter of their business practices, along with what the actual laws require.
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Old November 28, 2022, 06:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by PolarFBear
DogTownTom, thanks so very much for the cogent feedback. Yes a FFL is a licensee. And so is a Concealed Hand Gun Carry Permit which designates me as a Licensee. Vocabulary is an art of many definitions.
If you hold a concealed carry "permit," you are a "permittee," not a "licensee."
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Old November 28, 2022, 09:37 PM   #13
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And what if you have a Concealed Handgun License?? (as one state I know names it) You are then, a licensee, aren't you?
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Old November 28, 2022, 10:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
And what if you have a Concealed Handgun License?? (as one state I know names it) You are then, a licensee, aren't you?
I believe that was the point being made in post #7.
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Old November 30, 2022, 11:53 AM   #15
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Quote:
natman:Could you clarify which part "Not according to federal law/ATF regulations." refers to, "must go to FFL in receiving state" or "must transfer it back to you via an FFL in your state"? And could you cite the applicable regulation? Thanks!
OP asked: "May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?"
Which seems to imply they are shipping the firearm for repair or gunsmithing. This is one of the very few exceptions to federal laws on the interstate transfer of a firearm.

ATF address this in their FAQ's:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...80%99s-records
Quote:
How would a licensee record the disposition of a replacement firearm in the licensee’s records?
A licensee who receives a firearm for repair or customizing, and who returns a replacement firearm, must record the disposition in the licensee’s acquisition and disposition record. However, no ATF Form 4473 is required if the replacement firearm is returned to the same person from whom the licensee received the firearm being replaced. The replacement firearm must be of the same kind and type.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A); 27 CFR 478.124(a) and 478.147]
Thos citations at the bottom are from the Us Code and Code of Federal Regulations.
Quote:
§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.
and
Quote:
§ 478.147 Return of firearm.

A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See § 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic.
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Old November 30, 2022, 12:01 PM   #16
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RE whether your Dick Tracy secret decoder ring qualifies you as a "licensee"

OP asked a question in the Law and Civil Rights subforum. That question pertains to the interstate transfer of a firearm and mentions "licensee". OP knows what a licensee is, but oddly others seem to confuse what their state license to carry/CHL/CCW/firearm carry permit allow them to do.

What on earth makes you think your state license to carry/CHL/CCW/firearm carry permit has anything to do with the interstate shipment or transfer of a firearm?

It has absolutely nothing to do with it.
My car has a license plate. Should we claim that my car is a licensee in the context of this thread?
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Old November 30, 2022, 01:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
OP asked a question in the Law and Civil Rights subforum. That question pertains to the interstate transfer of a firearm and mentions "licensee". OP knows what a licensee is, but oddly others seem to confuse what their state license to carry/CHL/CCW/firearm carry permit allow them to do.

What on earth makes you think your state license to carry/CHL/CCW/firearm carry permit has anything to do with the interstate shipment or transfer of a firearm?

It has absolutely nothing to do with it.
My car has a license plate. Should we claim that my car is a licensee in the context of this thread?

Agreed… licensee is someone with an FFL. Non-licensee… someone without an FFL. Not a difficult thing.

If the OP made it seem like he was talking about something other than that, then definitively give him a heads up.
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Old December 1, 2022, 02:19 PM   #18
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From what I've been seeing elsewhere, at one time I could ship my firearm (rifle) via USPO, UPS and Fedex. I've heard that now UPS and FEDEX require firearms shipped though them be sent via FFL to FFL only. Seems they also require special paperwork as well. So if I need to send my Ruger back to them for repair or other reason, I can either go via USPO or have an FFL send it though the two private organizations. Brings forth a point to ponder. One, how come both came to the conclusion to do this as the same time? Was there Some kind of deal made with dot gov under the table? From what I've read, they require three separate forms depending on what id being shipped. One for firearms, one for firearm parts and one for other firearm related purchases, whatever that might entail. If one should order a firearm and accessories, they have to go in separate shipments as well as filling out those forms. With all the push for gun control by the Dems, nothing would surprise me anymore. I'm not saying there's a conspiracy here but with so much stuff being bought by mail order and through the internet, what better way to gather up a list of firearm owners that could easily be subpoenaed by you know who.
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Old December 1, 2022, 07:33 PM   #19
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Paul B. .....So if I need to send my Ruger back to them for repair or other reason, I can either go via USPO or have an FFL send it though the two private organizations.
For a rifle or shotgun correct.



Quote:
...how come both came to the conclusion to do this as the same time?
They didn't. FedEx announced their policy change almost a year earlier than UPS. But historically they have copied rate increases and other policy changes done by the other carrier.



Quote:
Was there Some kind of deal made with dot gov under the table?
I doubt ATF had anything to do with this, I'm guessing it was pressure from Democratic Congressmen.



Quote:
From what I've read, they require three separate forms depending on what id being shipped. One for firearms, one for firearm parts and one for other firearm related purchases, whatever that might entail. If one should order a firearm and accessories, they have to go in separate shipments as well as filling out those forms.
Yep.

Quote:
With all the push for gun control by the Dems, nothing would surprise me anymore. I'm not saying there's a conspiracy here but with so much stuff being bought by mail order and through the internet, what better way to gather up a list of firearm owners that could easily be subpoenaed by you know who.
Yet it won't be a list of firearm owners. The firearms are being shipped to another FFL. I have no need to tell a carrier who paid for the gun.
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Old December 2, 2022, 11:54 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
I doubt ATF had anything to do with this, I'm guessing it was pressure from Democratic Congressmen.
Both UPS and FedEx have announced changes in their policies about shipping firearms. They now require that firearms only be shipped by Federal Firearms License holders (FFLs), to other FFLs.

This new policy comes after letters were sent from a group of Democratic senators to a variety of shipping companies, including UPS and FedEx.

https://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/me...ts_letters.pdf

The letters were signed by Senators Edward Markey (D-Mass.), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Cory A. Booker (D-N.J.), Christopher S. Murphy (D-Conn.) and Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.).

In them they asked questions about shipping security and informed the companies of the following:

Under existing law, only licensed gun dealers and manufacturers — known as Federal Firearms Licenses (FFL) — can ship a firearm across state lines.

The problem is that it's not true. Existing law allows an non-licensee to ship interstate to a licensee or manufacturer.

May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own state or to a licensee in any state.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A)] [emphasis added]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-...ntract-carrier


If these Senators think that making shipping a firearm more inconvenient and expensive will somehow reduce crime, then they should introduce legislation to change the law. If they can't get it passed, they should take the hint and let the matter drop, instead of strong arming shipping companies to change their policies and misrepresenting the law to do it.
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Old December 2, 2022, 01:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
OP asked: "May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?"
Which seems to imply they are shipping the firearm for repair or gunsmithing. This is one of the very few exceptions to federal laws on the interstate transfer of a firearm.
The rules for shipping a firearm for gunsmithing/repair are clear. However, it's a big assumption that that's the situation here without a clear statement to that effect.

What if the OP shipped a gun to the FFL of an out of state buyer, who decided he didn't want it and wants to return it?
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Old December 2, 2022, 06:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by natman View Post
What if the OP shipped a gun to the FFL of an out of state buyer, who decided he didn't want it and wants to return it?
I would handle that as the return of a gun on consignment… 4473/NICS required.

That would mean go back to the OP thru an FFL. Remember, that firearm was logged into that out of state FFL’s book. Must be logged out correctly.
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Old December 2, 2022, 07:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
natman
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
OP asked: "May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?"
Which seems to imply they are shipping the firearm for repair or gunsmithing. This is one of the very few exceptions to federal laws on the interstate transfer of a firearm.
The rules for shipping a firearm for gunsmithing/repair are clear. However, it's a big assumption that that's the situation here without a clear statement to that effect.
OP asked if the FFL could return the firearm directly to him. I gave THE ONE EXEMPTION that allows the direct return. No "big assumption" is needed.



Quote:
What if the OP shipped a gun to the FFL of an out of state buyer, who decided he didn't want it and wants to return it?
That's a wholly different situation and the receiving FFL should know that the direct return to the OP is not legal per federal law.
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Old December 2, 2022, 10:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
OP asked: "May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?"
Which seems to imply they are shipping the firearm for repair or gunsmithing. This is one of the very few exceptions to federal laws on the interstate transfer of a firearm.
While legal, both Fedex and UPS will no longer accept for shipment firearms from someone who is NOT a FFL (unless the FFL sends you a prepaid label basically saying they are shipping your gun to themselves), so long guns can still go via USPS, bit handguns cannot; so your only recourse is using a FFL to FFL transaction
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