The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Harley Nolden Memorial Institute for Firearms Research

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 13, 2021, 08:35 PM   #1
samsmix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,267
6mm U.S.N. vs 6mm Remington chamber dimentions

My friend has a burning, pressing need for a mauser 98 in 6mm Lee Navy (6x60mm). Can he simply ream a 6mm Remington chamber?
__________________
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
samsmix is offline  
Old December 13, 2021, 08:56 PM   #2
mikejonestkd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 3,629
The 6mm Lee is a semi rimmed case, and the 6mm Remington is rimless.I do not see how you can make this work from a 6mm Remington chamber.
6mm Lee
Case type
Semi-rimmed, bottleneck

Bullet diameter
.244 in (6.2 mm)

Neck diameter
.278 in (7.1 mm)

Shoulder diameter
.402 in (10.2 mm)

Base diameter
.445 in (11.3 mm)

Rim diameter
.448 in (11.4 mm)

Case length
2.35 in (60 mm)

Overall length
3.11 in (79 mm)


6mm Remington

Parent case
7×57mm Mauser

Case type
Rimless, bottleneck

Bullet diameter
.2435 in (6.18 mm)

Neck diameter
.276 in (7.0 mm)

Shoulder diameter
.429 in (10.9 mm)

Base diameter
.471 in (12.0 mm)

Rim diameter
.473 in (12.0 mm)

Case length
2.233 in (56.7 mm)

Overall length
2.825 in (71.8 mm)

Rifling twist
1-9"
__________________
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
mikejonestkd is offline  
Old December 14, 2021, 11:47 AM   #3
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,330
Quote:
Can he simply ream a 6mm Remington chamber?
No. Sorry. Except for the case length and case neck diameter, the 6mm Remington is larger than the 6mm Lee Navy,

If the barrel has enough length in the shank, you could cut the 6mm Rem chamber off, re-thread the barrel, then ream a new 6mm Lee chamber, But you'd probably be better off starting with a 6mm barrel blank.

You would also most likely have to do some work to the action, bolt face, extractor, magazine rails, etcs...

A rifle chambered in .220 Swift would be your best bet, .225 Winchester might work reamed out, might have to set the barrel back a couple threads....

However, even with those, you're going to have to deal with the 6mm Lee round's rim being approx .03" smaller in dameter than the Swift's rim.

If you don't have 6mm Lee brass (and who does????) you could pobably form a workable case from .220 Swift brass (good luck getting those, as well..) cases will be a bit short, but should be shootable in a bolt gun.

Sorry I don't have any better advice.
Good Luck with your project!
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old December 14, 2021, 12:30 PM   #4
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,656
Boggles my mind.
6mm Lee Navy is a one-off cartridge, it is commonly said that .220 Swift is a development and its brass has been used to kluge up ammo. But if you do that, you would be better served with 6mm Cobra.

RCC makes brass at $5.85 EACH. I think lathe turned from brass bar stock.

Buffalo Arms only wants $1.89 because they form it from .25-06. As I recall, this calls for a hydraulic press and lathe.

Dies are $110.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old December 14, 2021, 05:08 PM   #5
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 5,629
Well, you might be able to make a short neck version from 220 Swift after you found a case head lathe, reamer and dies.

Looks like a PPC bolt face, but why not use a std bolt face and rim of a 220 swift?

I would guess there is some reason for all this?
Nathan is offline  
Old December 17, 2021, 04:45 PM   #6
samsmix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,267
That was a wonderful string of useful info, thank you all very much.
__________________
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
samsmix is offline  
Old December 17, 2021, 05:02 PM   #7
samsmix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,267
Yes, there is a reason for all of this. Let me start with saying that this is all under consultation with, and subject to the opinion of my local ATF type. Furthermore my friend is not interrested in what others would do, were they in his shoes. He is trying to folllow the law, not break the law, and at the end of the day it's his butt on the line. Okay, now...

For the last 15 years my friend has found himself...ahem, "restricted to black powder". That is to say, yes, he has a felony (non-violent) on his record. He DOES NOT wish to break the law, but would certainly like to have a proper hunting rifle again.

By his state's law he is okay, and in fact they gave him his rights back...but the feds don't do that. By federal law he may possess "antique firearms" including:

~Anything designed and manufactured in or before 1899, and replicas thereof.

He may not possess:
~ Cartridges that fit a firearm designed and manufactured a after 1899.

8mm Lebel and 7.62x54R for instance have both been chambered in newly designed weapons since 1900 (the Berthier and SVD respectively).

6mm USN went pretty well nowhere, and wasn't chambered in anything after the turn of the century...so a scoped M98 or Miroku High Wall replica in 6mm Lee Navy is what he is looking to have.
__________________
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
samsmix is offline  
Old December 17, 2021, 05:19 PM   #8
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 14,974
Not to start any arguments, but once you rebuild or rebarrel a rifle it is no longer a Curio/Relic, so does the same apply to a newly rebarreeld M98? You might have to look at something like an original Winchester 1885 in one of the obsolete calibers. Like this
https://www.gunsamerica.com/90647415...de-in-1901.htm
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Scorch is offline  
Old December 17, 2021, 05:37 PM   #9
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,656
Geez, I thought he was just eccentric, but this is jailhouse lawyer stuff. If this little project came to official notice he and maybe you would be explaining all those little points to a Federal judge.

For one thing
Quote:
6mm USN went pretty well nowhere, and wasn't chambered in anything after the turn of the century.
is simply not so.
The Winchester-Lee Straight Pull was made until 1902 according to Flayderman.
6mm Navy ammo is cataloged in the 1939 Stoegers.
And the current Buffalo Arms.

Last edited by Jim Watson; December 17, 2021 at 05:51 PM.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old December 17, 2021, 08:22 PM   #10
samsmix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,267
Jim Watson,
No, it isn't "Jailhouse Lawyer stuff", it's actual lawyer stuff and if you read my explanation you'd find out that it's being done with official notice from start to finish. If we end up explaining this to a federal judge, it will be BEFORE he proceeds, not after.
As to the 6mm USN being built until 1902, It's okay to have a rifle BUILT after the turn of the century, and cartridges chambered for it...if it were a pre-1900 design and no new designs were built for it. So it is so for my buddy's purposes. Not that I was here for your legal advice, JUST chamber dimentions.


Scorch,
That was definitely an option, and the 1885 was our first choice. In fact it may well be what he chooses, since it will be a full up custom ammo and single shots encourage brass retention. Lee straight pulls can be a bit scarce and also somewhat kaboomy, and those kabooms have injured and killed, otherwise he might have sought one out.
The law doesn't say C&R as it is defined, just "Antique", then goes on to define it as "designed and made before 1900 -or- a replica of a design produced before 1900". I will be sure to ask for clarification when next I see the ATF man.
We were actually thinking a custom re-barreled Miroku Low Wall when this all got started.
__________________
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?

Last edited by samsmix; December 17, 2021 at 08:36 PM.
samsmix is offline  
Old December 17, 2021, 10:12 PM   #11
samsmix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,267
All other matters aside, my question is answered: should he choose to proceed, he will not be reaming a 6mm Remington to do so.

...and look, I knew that full disclosure would open me for criticism, but I am only the technical advisor, asked to search for a rifle and cartridge combo that fits the criteria.
His legal counsel and the ATF are his problem, though I have the luxury of casual-if-unofficial access to the later.
__________________
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
samsmix is offline  
Old December 18, 2021, 09:21 AM   #12
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,656
Stipulating that you have the legalisms correct, I still see obstacles.
A Miroku (Browning, Winchester) Highwall is not a faithful reproduction of the 1885 Winchester Single Shot. There is not a single part in common. I know, I have both. Can a BATF examiner tell the difference? And care?

There are accurate reproductions available, Uberti imports them and C. Sharps will even sell a bare action. Will they sell them like an antique or a cap and ball reproduction?

If not, what will your guy answer to block 21 on the 4473?

Since the 6mm Navy rifle was in fact still in production after 1898 and ammunition was still regularly produced long after and is a catalog item even now, there are lots more convenient calibers originating before 1899.
Frex, would that BATF examiner agree that 7.9x57J 1888 is different from "8mm Mauser"?
Jim Watson is offline  
Old December 20, 2021, 05:08 PM   #13
samsmix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,267
Jim Watson,

The rifle may be produced after 1899, so long as it wasnt a new design. The ammo may fit a rifle produced after 1899, as long as it won't fit one designed after 1899 (like the '86 Lebel cartridge, which also fits an M-1915 Berthier).

The 4473 question was answered for me about 8 months ago, but I have forgotten the specifics and will need to ask again.

How faithful a reproduction does a "replica" need to be to in fact be a replica? Good question, but I won't get to ask until after the holidays. Uberti actions have been considered as well.

While Mauser 98s and Win. M-95s have been considered, the handloaded nature of the project has made the 1885 rifles tops in consideration due to a single shot's encouraged brass retention. Smokeless loadings of 38-56 were even considered at first (formed from .45-70 brass)... but the lack of lighter .375 spire point bullets killed it.

A sharps? My friend is a good enough shot to be less than appreciative of its excessive lock time...but the cool factor is there for sure. He may even go the "buffalo rifle" route for elk... or all big game...but let's not dive down that path just yet.

I am simply less secure in my knowledge of 8x57J, and while I know exactly WHAT it is, I believe (perhaps erroniously) that sporting rifles continued to be chambered for it right up 'till WWI. If not it would be absolutely ideal, as my friend lives in antelope, deer, elk, and moose country...but again I'm too uncertain of it's exact history. Remember, no new models, only pre-1900 and replicas thereof.

Thank you for taking this challenging question seriously. I appreciate all the input, and especially some of the good questions. I'm sure my friend will, too.
__________________
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
samsmix is offline  
Old December 21, 2021, 10:35 AM   #14
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,656
I didn't say a Sharps rifle, I said to check the Winchester copy made by C. Sharps.
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detai...le-Action.html
But at their price, you could buy a Uberti, throw away the barrel, and have a stock for "free."

I was leafing through Cartridges of the World and saw some interesting pre-99 cartridges.
It said the 6.5x57 Mauser was introduced as soon as 1893 or 1894, soon followed by a 6x57 in 1895. Even better, like many Mauser rounds, they were also offered in rimmed versions for single shots and combination guns.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old December 21, 2021, 03:35 PM   #15
samsmix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,267
Jim Watson,
My mistake. I thought you meant the actual Sharps. I've shot some C. Sharps Arms guns...well, one...and it was a fine weapon. I didn't know they made an 1885, but I think my friend is probably in the Uberti market.

I haven't picked up a Cartridges of the World for years, but it would have been my next stop. Are we certain no one made a new model gun in 6x57 or 6.5x57? Those would be nice and easy to make brass for!
__________________
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
samsmix is offline  
Old December 21, 2021, 04:07 PM   #16
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,656
A 6.5x57R is probably still available in new made guns. It is kind of like that Miroku Highwall, is a 2020 drilling a reasonable continuation of a 1898 drilling or is it a new design?
Jim Watson is offline  
Old December 21, 2021, 04:45 PM   #17
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 14,974
Quote:
Are we certain no one made a new model gun in 6x57 or 6.5x57? Those would be nice and easy to make brass for!
Unfortunately, 6x57 rifles were made pre-WW2 and commercial ammo was available. 6.5X57 rifles made by Heym are still available (6.5X57 was the smallest cartridge that could be legally used to harvest game in Germany for many years, so it was relively common. Ammo is still available from RWS and Prvi Partizan.) If you are looking for truly obsolete cartridges not chambered post-1899 that have some oomph to them you will likely be looking at black powder cartridges in large-ish calibers. Winchester, Ballard, Marlin, Remington and others made a whole flock of black powder cartridges that were quickly obsoleted after 1895 with the introduction and availability of smokeless powder.
Quote:
We were actually thinking a custom re-barreled Miroku Low Wall when this all got started.
The Miroku Highwall and Lowwall are modern designs, meant to look like the original Winchester 1885 rifles but are substantially different internally.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services

Last edited by Scorch; December 21, 2021 at 04:50 PM.
Scorch is offline  
Old December 21, 2021, 04:59 PM   #18
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,656
You would have to look hard. Frex, .45-70 has been chambered in a multitude of rifles designed and made a long long time after 1873.
There is a good deal of "retromodding" with obscure calibers of the 19th century; things like .44-90.
Jim Watson is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.04970 seconds with 10 queries