7.62×25mm Tokarev

[aandrews]

Can the 7.62×25mm Tokarev round be safely fired through a .32 ACP barrel?

[Jim Watson]

No.
It cannot be fired even unsafely. It is a much larger cartridge, it won't go in the chamber.

[BornFighting88]

@aandrews

I believe the Tokarev round is of the 9mm Para parentage for its case, and necked down. So you are already out of luck if my theory holds true.

Not a lot of autos (not really any that I know of) can fire a determined chambering along with the laundry list of shorter versions of same chambering. Example. 9x19mm pistols can not and should not be loaded with 9x18 or 9x17 (380 ACP) rounds. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!!

Same way that a 10mm should not be loaded with 40 SW rounds.

[44 AMP]

I believe the Tokarev round is of the 9mm Para parentage for its case, and necked down.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. The 7.62x25mm Tokarev round is not derived in any way from the 9mm Parabellum.

The Tokarev round is a Soviet version of German 7.63 Mauser round. It is almost exactly dimensionally the same and the handgun ammo is loaded to similar velocity and pressure. Some Soviet SMG ammo is hotter.

It will NOT fit in a .32acp barrel, the round is significantly longer AND the case body is "fatter". It will not chamber or fit in the .32acp magazine. The ONLY thing the two have in common is the .30 bore of the barrel.

The Broomhandle Mauser and its cartridge (.30 Mauser) were popular in Russia before the First World War, and continued to be popular after the Communists took over, In the early 1930s, the Soviets began loading their own version of the 7.63 Mauser for their new pistol design (the T-33 Tokarev) and called it the 7.62x25mm.

It was not based on either of the Luger rounds, though the rim size is almost the same, the case is considerably longer.

[Jim Watson]

History
7.65 Borchardt
(also Mauser, Schwartzlose, Mannlicher, Tokarev; same case, different loads)
Shorten
7.65 Luger
Neck up, shorten
9mm Luger

[BornFighting88]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Sorry, but this is incorrect. The 7.62x25mm Tokarev round is not derived in any way from the 9mm Parabellum.

The Tokarev round is a Soviet version of German 7.63 Mauser round. It is almost exactly dimensionally the same and the handgun ammo is loaded to similar velocity and pressure. Some Soviet SMG ammo is hotter.

It will NOT fit in a .32acp barrel, the round is significantly longer AND the case body is "fatter". It will not chamber or fit in the .32acp magazine. The ONLY thing the two have in common is the .30 bore of the barrel.

The Broomhandle Mauser and its cartridge (.30 Mauser) were popular in Russia before the First World War, and continued to be popular after the Communists took over, In the early 1930s, the Soviets began loading their own version of the 7.63 Mauser for their new pistol design (the T-33 Tokarev) and called it the 7.62x25mm.

It was not based on either of the Luger rounds, though the rim size is almost the same, the case is considerably longer.

Thanks for correction.

[jonnyc]

"Some Soviet SMG ammo is hotter."

Sorry, but this does not exist. Check any packaging or documentation you can find (and I have) and you will find that there is no such thing as "hot Tokarev SMG ammo", it was all made for both pistols and SMGs.

[44 AMP]

Sorry, but this does not exist.

One of the things I've learned to try to avoid in the firearms realm is categorically stating something doesn't exist. Don't always manage it, but I do try.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And not finding any ammo marked as smg only or something similar only means you didn't find any ammo marked that way.

its possible no ammo so marked was made, but its also possible such ammo was made and just not marked as SMG only....

Also possible such ammo was made and marked but repackaged (perhaps multiple times) without the marking before getting to the consumer market. Lots of things are possible.

[tangolima]

I know 7.62x25 is for Soviet arms only. Never heard of any more specifics than that. Proving nonexistence is indeed high bar. Only take one single piece evidence of existence to knock it down. Haven't seen one yet.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[jonnyc]

I happen to have the largest collection of 7.62x25 ammo in the world (not a brag, just fact), including boxes, packets, and documentation. In over 25 years of this pursuit I haven't seen a single shred of info on any Tokarev cartridges loaded exclusively for either pistols or SMGs. Every source that even touches on the subject designates that the round is for Pistols & SMGs. Two different loadings would require some type of warning or advisory to use the proper ammunition, but those warnings do not exist in any document, in any language that I possess or have seen. Armies are funny like that. What you say might exist and has been forgotten, or never documented, does not exist.
You can doubt all you want, but you will just be wasting brain power.

[jmstr]

I know 7.62x25 is for Soviet arms only. Never heard of any more specifics than that. Proving nonexistence is indeed high bar. Only take one single piece evidence of existence to knock it down. Haven't seen one yet.

-TL

I am not addressing the comments about ammo power factor [although I thought the rumor was regarding some tokarev ammo from a specific lot from Czechoslovakia in the 1970s- but that is a very, very vague memory.]

However, your first statement got me scratching my head, as I am not quite sure how you are using the term "for soviet arms only".

The Tokarev-designed pistol, the TT30/TT33, was clearly an example of Soviet Arms.

I would even be ok with lumping all of the TT-33 clones made in Romania/Poland/Bulgaria/Yugoslavia/China as Soviet Arms, as they were, in essence, the same pistol- just made in different countries.

However, would you consider a CZ52 to be Soviet Arms? It IS behind the Iron Curtain, in a Warsaw Pact country, but I think of the CZ52 as Czechoslovakian arms. Yet, it is clearly a very, very different design- that only shares the caliber in common with the TT-33.

Also, didn't China make a Sig P-series knockoff in 7.62x25mm?


Maybe it is safer to say that 7.62x25mm Tokarev was made for 'communist arms'?



Just curious where you lean?

[full disclosure: I have a CZ52, but also TT-33s made in Russia and Poland, as I sold my Romanian one.]

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

I happen to have the largest collection of 7.62x25 ammo in the world (not a brag, just fact), including boxes, packets, and documentation. In over 25 years of this pursuit I haven't seen a single shred of info on any Tokarev cartridges loaded exclusively for either pistols or SMGs.

Possibly a belief started with ammunition packaged on stripper clips. I have yet to see a pistol magazine that will take the 7.62x25 ammo directly from the stripper clips. So the stuff on strippers is pretty much intended for the SMG magazines.

[Mike Irwin]

Years ago I saw a guy turn a TT-30 into scrap with what I THOUGHT was factory "SMG" loaded ammo.

Some time later I found out that it was... his own hand loads... that he had overloaded....

[44 AMP]

I have yet to see a pistol magazine that will take the 7.62x25 ammo directly from the stripper clips.

Broomhandle Mauser.

aka Mauser C-96. Very popular in Russia, and the Soviet 7.62x25 was their copy of the 7.63 Mauser round. The case specs I have show a 0.001" in length (which is not significant) and other wise dimensions are essentially the same.

The information I've seen, over the years (and all in English) is all over the place about which round is "hotter". I've got some data that says the Mauser is faster (but only by less than 50fps) others say the Tokarev is hotter and don't use it in Broomhandle Mausers....

Can't say who is right, either camp might be, depending on what ammo the looked at, at the time. what I am sure of is that, if it came on a stripper clip that fit a C-96, some comrades would have used it.

That might, or might not have caused problems, but even if it had caused serious problems, under Soviet rule, information about flaws or failures of anything Soviet were ruthlessly suppressed.

[jonnyc]

The only Tokarev ammo I've seen come loaded on strippers is Czech. That was to ease loading into VZ26 SMG mags, not an indicator of loading specs.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The information I've seen, over the years (and all in English) is all over the place about which round is "hotter". I've got some data that says the Mauser is faster (but only by less than 50fps) others say the Tokarev is hotter and don't use it in Broomhandle Mausers....

You can't use velocity as a measure because different manufacturers can load the same bullet weight in the same cartridge to a different speed. Thus velocity is not a valid measure. Only the pressure limit tells the story.

CIP specs:

7.63 Mauser: Pmax 2250 bar
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/td...-mauser-en.pdf

7.62X25 Tokarev: Pmax 2500 bar
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/td...l-en-page9.pdf

[44 AMP]

When you don't have the pressure information, all you have is the given velocity, the actual pressure specs are irrelevant.

And also, without having the pressure rating of the ammo you are using, you cant know if it is loaded to the industry max, or something else.

I've got some data, published in the 60s, stating the Mauser is an 86gr bullet and the Tokarev is an 87gr. Says the Mauser does 1410fps and the Tokarev does 1390fps.

Pressure is not mentioned, nor is barrel length, only bullet, velocity and ME

Sure, its far from complete, but when you only have what they give you for information, that's what you go on. or don't go, at all.

I have also seen other data (and also less than completely documenting everything) which shows the reverse, with the Tokarev being a little faster than the Mauser.

TO me, this makes the two essentially identical in performance, as literally, anything less than over 100fps difference in speed can be attributed to the individual firearms being tested.

Tokarev #1234 might be 30fps slower than Mauser #1245 and Tokarev # 4567 might be 50fps faster than Mauser# 1245 and slower than Mauser#5567 or Tokarev #8888.

Individual guns can, and do play more of a role in velocity than the ammo specs alone indicate.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

When you don't have the pressure information, all you have is the given velocity, the actual pressure specs are irrelevant.

And also, without having the pressure rating of the ammo you are using, you cant know if it is loaded to the industry max, or something else.

I've got some data, published in the 60s, stating the Mauser is an 86gr bullet and the Tokarev is an 87gr. Says the Mauser does 1410fps and the Tokarev does 1390fps.

Pressure is not mentioned, nor is barrel length, only bullet, velocity and ME

Sure, its far from complete, but when you only have what they give you for information, that's what you go on. or don't go, at all.

I have also seen other data (and also less than completely documenting everything) which shows the reverse, with the Tokarev being a little faster than the Mauser.

TO me, this makes the two essentially identical in performance, as literally, anything less than over 100fps difference in speed can be attributed to the individual firearms being tested.

Tokarev #1234 might be 30fps slower than Mauser #1245 and Tokarev # 4567 might be 50fps faster than Mauser# 1245 and slower than Mauser#5567 or Tokarev #8888.

Individual guns can, and do play more of a role in velocity than the ammo specs alone indicate.

Right, the velocity is meaningless except to compare box of ammo A to box of ammo B. If you want to get the facts about a cartridge, go to the technical specifications.

[tangolima]

My understanding is not to shoot 7.62x25 in .30 Mauser guns. I do the opposite. I shoot TT with .30 Mauser rounds I load for c96.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Unkl Chuck]

I'll throw my 2cents in. Jim Watson has the parentage fairly correct as I have come to understand it. The Borchardt was the beginning and essentially Mauser 'perfected' the round. Luger did not want a Mauser round in his redesign of the Borchardt pistol and shortened the cartridge to 21mm and the .30 Luger was born. The Russians loved broomhandles and the 7.63 X 25 came along with it. They 'borrowed' Browning's design for Tokarev T30/33 and the rest is history.
Common advice is to not use ammo loaded for the Tokarev [or a SMG] in a broomhandle, as Tok loads are often a bit hotter than .30 Mauser. Considering the youngest broom is nearly a hundred years old, I'm not taking the chance with mine and only shoot very light handloads. I do have a Tokagypt 58 with the appropriate barrel and shoot most any 7.62/3X25 ammo available. It also has the 9mm barrel. Look up 'Manowar's Hungarian Weapons and History' for more on the Tokagypts.

[Mike Irwin]

"The Russians loved broomhandles and the 7.63 X 25 came along with it. "

It less a case of love and more a case of economic necessity.

Post World War I both Germany and now-Soviet Russia were absolute international pariahs, and not a lot of countries were interested in trading with them, so they started trading with each other.

One of the first big Germany to Russia trades was C96 Mauser pistols and ammunition. Something like 100,000 C96s and several million rounds of ammo went to Russia during and after the Civil War, and the Soviets eventually purchased licenses and equipment from Germany to manufacture the ammunition in Russia, which was the birth of the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge.

Prior to the outbreak of World War I the C96 had been a fairly popular gun with officers in a number of European armies, including Russia. Even Winston Churchill spoke very fondly of his C96.

Up until the time that Hitler came to power, Germany and the Soviet Union maintained pretty close trade and military ties, and the C96 was just a small part of that.

[44 AMP]

Actually Germany and the Soviet Union remained trading partners after the Nazis took over Germany (in 1933). Because of the fundamental differences in political ideology, everyone knew that, eventually the two nations would clash on the battlefield, but until that happened, they continued to trade with each other.

Germany bought Russian wheat, and other things, Russia bought finished goods the Germans would sell them. There were even military military attache missions where officers of both nations examined the other's military equipment.

All that ended with Operation Barbarossa (june 1941) when Hitler broke the non-agression pact and invaded Russia.

[Mike Irwin]

"Actually Germany and the Soviet Union remained trading partners after the Nazis took over Germany (in 1933)."

Did I say they didn't?

Of course they remained trading partners. They also kept political, military, social, cultural, technological, and agricultural ties.

They even entered into broad trade agreements almost right up to the start of Operation Bararossa.

But from the day Hitler took power the relationship between Germany and Russia began to shift fundamentally on all levels due to Hitler's personal animosity toward Communism. Those ties became a lot more... perfunctory... and in Germany's case were aimed directly at helping prepare the Reich for a war machine that would be eventually turned loose on the Soviet Union.

If you want a good indication of how the relationship between the Soviet Union and Germany was flipping back and forth in the late 1930s, there's no better example than that of Sergei Eisenstein.

In 1938 he directed Alexander Nevsky, a rather extreme set piece of anti-German propaganda pulled out of Russian history (but still a damned fine film).

But in August 1939, with the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (Soviet-German non-aggression pact), Alexander Nevsky was pulled from circulation, and Eisenstein was assigned to direct Wagnerian Operas at the Bolshoi theater.

After Germany launched Operation Barbarossa in 1941?

Wagner was out, Alexander Nevsky was re-released and became practically mandatory viewing for every man, woman, and child in Russia, and Eisenstein was awarded the Stalin prize for it in 1941.

[Unkl Chuck]

A small addition to the thread, the German military wanted a larger caliber cartridge than the 7.62X21 Luger and the 7.62X21 was necked up to 9MM Luger or Parabellum, if you prefer. There were some odd 'revisions' to the 7.63X25 Mauser, but nothing had any staying power.
I occasionally load and shoot both cartridges, when I can find suitable bullets. The thought of doing some load development with the Mauser round crosses my mind on occassion as I have an SSK barrel for Contender in 7.63X25. Has anyone done this?

[Webleymkv]

The only two companies I'm aware of that currently make (and thus have ballistics information available) both 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev are Fiocchi and PPU. Unfortunately, neither have the test barrel length listed in their published literature (IIRC, 7.62 Tokarev is often listed from a rather long 10+" barrel as one would expect on a submachine gun) so it's of limited utility. Fiocchi lists 7.63 Mauser at 1425 fps with an 88 gr bulletwhile 7.62 Tokarev is listed at 1525 fps with an 85 gr bullet.

https://fiocchiusa.com/centerfire-pi...tage/763a.html

https://fiocchiusa.com/centerfire-pi...ge/762tok.html

PPU on the other hand lists 7.63 Mauser at 1510 fps with an 85 gr bullet and 7.62 Tokarev at 1720 fps with an 85 gr bullet (I suspect this is from a long barrel).

https://ppu-usa.com/ppu/7-63-mauser/

https://ppu-usa.com/ppu/7-62x25-tokarev/

While I cannot find it now, I remember seeing published data many years ago which listed the velocity of Soviet-made 7.62 Tokarev ammo at roughly 1300 fps while that made by other Warsaw-pact countries was noticeably faster at 1400-1500 fps depending on the country of origin. While I have no data to back this up, I always theorized that perhaps the Soviets intentionally kept their 7.62 Tok ammo on the milder side due to the large numbers of C96 Mausers they had floating around (as has been mentioned, the Broomhandle was popular in Russia) while other Warsaw pact countries loaded the cartridge closer to its full potential because they were using it in more modern guns like the TT-30/33, M57, VZ-52, and various submachine guns. I also theorized that this was the origin of the "hot Czech subgun ammo" myth as Czech ammo would be quite a bit faster though it's because Soviet ammo was intentionally loaded mild.

Personally, I think the safest course of action is to shoot the proper cartridge in the gun for which it was designed. C96 Mausers are all very old now and aren't as strong as other more modern designs. Since the C96 is far and away the most common gun chambered for 7.63 Mauser, I would assume that commercial ammo in that caliber is loaded with the C96 in mind. While it may or may not be possible to safely shoot 7.63 Mauser ammo in a gun chambered for 7.62 Tokarev (I think it probably is, but I don't know for certain), there really isn't any good reason to do so as 7.63 Mauser is no more widely available nor more affordable than 7.62 Tokarev (usually it's the other way around).