Butch Cassidy's "Modified Winchester"??

[FresnoVince]

You make a good point, though Etta Place supposedly had excellent teeth, however she managed it.

[Ricklin]

There are a few back in those days. Good genetics really helps. Not a dentist, but make my living that way. White teeth are not natural, there are a very few but for the most part, lots O yellow and missing teeth was the norm.

Heck still is in a lot of places.

[Jim Watson]

Old pictures, Etta was right attractive. Most women of the day look pretty rough.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Old pictures, Etta was right attractive. Most women of the day look pretty rough.

There were a lot of attractive women in the old west. At least in their younger days.

[FresnoVince]

Here is a quick view at what she really looked like. I had her photo colorized and for the first time gave people an idea of how she really looked. In the process, I also discovered they were apparently really married as working on the photo brought out that she wears both a wedding and engagement ring. (Traditionally, it was thought they just lived together and the B&W images just looked like a single ring until I started with sepia, which changed the contrast and revealed two rings clearly.) It also revealed she had a ribbon on the top of her hair, and that--in an example of sentimentality--she incorrectly wears a gold necklace atop a scarf, which a woman would not normally do in the way she does. Clearly, the necklace had sentimental value and she wanted to show it off so she draped it over the scarf.

Unfortunately, she does not wear the bracelet I have that I believe was hers, but I believe she got that in 1904 during the World's Fair she attended

[Hawg]

Some people say her real name was Ann Bassett.

[FresnoVince]

That's true and they look a lot alike in THAT photo (not others) but Ann claimed she knew EP, not that she WAS EP, and the way she made up stories for attention, if the thought ever crossed her mind to equate herself w/EP, she would have shouted it from the housetops.

We also know her timeline, and she was known to be in Colorado at a time EP was known to be in Argentina so they cannot have been the same person. But I see how someone could compare the two photos

[Hawg]

Been awhile but I came across this and remembered this thread. A modified Whitney Kennedy said to have been found where they were killed along with some letters to Butch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOnDzeLOlsE

[Cholila]

I am late to this discussion – just saw it this week. Some background info. First, the Winchester 1892 .44-40 auctioned in 2016 was part of a collection of items supposedly found by the authorities with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid’s bodies following their 6 November 1908 deaths in San Vicente, Bolivia. The collection, which first surfaced in the US in the early 2000s, is bogus. Repeat, is bogus. The documents supporting the collection were crude forgeries. References: 1/ Wild West History Association Facebook Forum,"Bogus Cassidy and Sundance Bolivian collection returns to auction," 1 March 2018; and 2/ Meghan Saar, "History, Not for Sale: Suspicious B&S Lot Put Back On The Auction Block," TRUE WEST, November/December 2008.

As for the descriptions of the weapons Cassidy and Sundance carried before and after the events of November 1908, there are two sources, not entirely consistent: 1/ Carlos Pero, the man the bandits held up on 4 November 1908, described their weapons as follows: "Both of them carried new carbines of the Mauser-type, small caliber and thick barrel, rather like -- or perhaps the same as -- Carlos Schmidt has. But they were completely new, which is to say, they had never been used. The bandits also carried Colt revolvers, and I believe they also had very small Browning revolvers outside their cartridge belts, which were filled with rifle ammunition."

2/ The 7 November postmortem inventory of the bandits' possessions listed: "One six-shot Colt revolver, with holster belt with thirty cartridges"; "One hundred twenty-one Winchester cartridges"; "One modified Winchester carbine (new)"; "Nineteen modified Mauser cartridges"; "One hundred thirty Mauser and Winchester cartridges"; "Thirteen Colt revolver cartridges"; and "One Argentine-model Mauser carbine with its sheath." Source: Anne Meadows, DIGGING UP BUTCH AND SUNDANCE (rev. ed. 1996).

Some of the bandits' guns might have disappeared immediately after their deaths as souvenirs, which would explain why the postmortem inventory does not include all the items in Pero's description. Daniel Buck

[Jim Watson]

"Nineteen modified Mauser cartridges"

There's an interesting item. Modified how, cut-nose dum-dums, maybe?

[Cholila]

Do not know. Inventory was made by the San Vicente cantonal agent, Aristides Daza. The Spanish word he used for both the Winchester carbine and the Mauser cartridges was "reformado," which we translated, after consulting with some native speakers, as "modified." Re the Winchester we assumed he meant a shortened barrel, but that's just a guess. Re the cartridges, don't know. Dan

[georgehwbush]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I'm thinking the "modified" description is a misinterpretation of the auction website's listing..... " 44-40 caliber MOD 1892"

Which of course is a informal abbreviation of the word "model" as in Model 1892.

i'd say you are probably right, but it begs the question why does the same company use "mod" 1892 for model and also comes with three chokes "full" "mod" and "imp" lol

but yes i would believe that easily.

[Jim Watson]

The Spanish word he used for both the Winchester carbine and the Mauser cartridges was "reformado,"

The only "reformado" ammunition I know of is the .43 Spanish with the brass jacketed "poison bullet." But Spain did not go to 7mm spitzers until 1913 which eliminates that as the "modification."

There are a few (good teeth) back in those days. Good genetics really helps.

Robert A. Heinlein got into that in 'Beyond This Horizon' 1942.
A future character points out that old time residents of Deaf Smith County, Texas, had good teeth. It was found to be because the well water in that area had naturally occurring levels of fluorides. But in the long run, it was found better to preserve the genetics of people with good teeth in spite of poor water and food.

[Cholila]

The 2016 Peterson auction listing describes the gun on sale as "the .44-40 caliber Winchester Model 1892 carbine" recovered from the scene of BC&SK's deaths. The gun is bogus in the sense that although it might be a Model 1892 it had no connection whatsoever to BC&SK. The supporting documents were forged. The 7 November 1908 inventory of the two bandits' personal effects included "One modified Winchester carbine (new)." The word in Spanish was "reformada." Thus, two different guns, one described as a "Winchester Model 1892" and the other as a "modified Winchester." Dan