Safe Filler Material for Reduced Loads

[300magman]

I'm wondering if such a material exists and weather or not it is necessary.

It would seem like a good idea to keep the powder "packed" against the primer rather than having it settled to the bottom...or worse yet the front of the round (should I be shooting at a downward angle). Some reduced loads would seem to have a lot of empty space in them, by the looks of a few loading charts I have read, and I'm wondering if this is going to give me any inconsistency issues with big cartridges like the 300RUM.

[Scrapperz]

If you use Trail Boss for your reduced loads you won't need filler. Check out this instruction sheet from Hodgdon. http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[Brian Pfleuger]

Polyester pillow fiber.

Scrapperz is technically correct about Trail Boss, but my *limited* trials have shown that Trial Boss is position sensitive so any load that does not fill the case to near capacity may still be more consistent if you use a filler.

[oneounceload]

polyester, as mentioned, for rifles. For pistols or shotguns, I like a cheerio or similar

[Scrapperz]

I have to add I haven't actually used this Trailboss powder yet. I will eventually try it in my 460 S&W Mag, 454 Casull, and 45 Colt to see what kind of results I get.

I heard of people using Cream of Wheat or Grits as filler. I have never had to use filler so I have no experience in the field.

I found this in a search:

Link>>http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.p...=198410.0;wap2

Veral:
I normally hit delete for answers that come in ahead of mine, fellas, but will leave the above two in place, with the following comments. (Also, the word theory, and all theory is forbidden on this site!) Just the facts and facts only! My 'theory' is, better to say I don't know and seem ignorant than to give a theory and be known as wrong!

Fillers work fine, like cornmeal and grits, if they are really dried well, but they are hydroscopic and the moisture they contain in damp weather, if not dried with heat before use can mess things up with the powder. Because of this I recommend granulated plastic shot buffer. However I don't recommend filling more than 1/3 of the case with it. If the powder being used takes up less than 2/3 of the case, use it without filler, if it's and easy to ignite flake like Unique or the other pistol powders, or switch to a powder that better fills the case, to at least 2/3 of capacity and filler that.

Do NOT USE DACRON OR ANY FUZZ BALL FILLER! THEY ALMOST GUARANTEE A RINGED AND RUINED BARREL!

My main use for shot buffer filler is when the gas check of the bullet wanting to be used, must protrude into the powder room, or if leading problems arise before I reach the velocity level I want. The plastic filler keeps the gas checks from inverting and wipes up any leading, when used as stated above.

Whenever using a filler, ALWAYS use some compression so there is no mixing of powder and filler. Also, don't just ad filler over a charge that is developing some pressure signes and pressures will absolutely rise dramatically when filler is added, due to much faster ignition and powder burning rate from the powder confinement. Back the charge off a few grains, filler it and try the load. Work up as seems prudent by heeding pressure signs.

My experiance with the Lyman cast bullet manual. I've found VERY FEW loads that could be worked up even close to their maximum without heavy leading and wild inaccuracy, with any bullet, but especially with any of the Lyman designs. The fast powder loads prooves the worst offenders for me, except with the lightest loads given, or close to the lightest. If you have lots of Unique to burn, and want to do it with a rifle, do it with light plinker loads. Buy some slower powder, preferably ball type, for heavy loads.

A neighbor who owned a garbage service 20 plus years ago brought me two large cans of Unique someone threw out. I liked it because it was free, but used it slowly because I don't like it good enough to buy it for anything. I think I proabably still have most of it, if it wasn't stolen back there when calamity hit us 11 years ago. Still don't have all that sorted out yet

[300magman]

My concern when I first started thinking about a filler, was that something might attract water and/or Freeze! The last thing I want is a barrel obstruction and I do hunt in rain and temps as low as -20.

The granulated plastic shot buffer sounds like it might be the safest thing to test for all-weather use. But I wonder what it will do to the barrel

[Unclenick]

Cream of wheat and corn meal are old standbys but are no longer recommended by most shooters. Unlike the polyester pillow stuffing, which is mostly air and weighs next to nothing, the cereals both consume space, which raises pressure, and it have enough mass to hammer at the bullet base. This eventually can cause expanded pressure rings to form in a chamber. I saw an article by a fellow who swore that was nonsense because he had over 10,000 rounds of cereal-filled ammunition through his rifles without a problem. Then one day he found a chamber ring. No warning. No change of formulation. No pressure signs. Stick with the polyester or with Puff-lon, which is another mostly-air commercial shot buffer.

I'd never seen Veral Smith reporting ringing from polyester before. Nor have I heard of that from anyone else. But some people use a tuft and some pack the stuff in, which strikes me as negating the weight and air advantage. Smith usually has things right, but I am curious now what the problem has proven to be?

[Scrapperz]

I found another thread that caught my eye>>
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=234194

Here one post in the thread:

Link to this post>>http://shootersforum.com/showpost.ht...94&postcount=4

There's a product called "Puff-Alon" that used to be advertised - don't know if it's still available or not. It is a lightweight powdery substance that's supposed to be a great filler. I didn't try it because it has moly in it and I've given up on moly long ago.

Recently purchased some urathane spherical buffer that's used for shotshell buffering material. Had the idea of using it for some straight walled cartridges as a filler until after getting it and reading the label - quote "Precision Reloading, Inc. specifically recommends against adding its Spherical Shotshell Buffer (PSB) to any shotshell, rifle or pistol load not developed and detailed in tested reloading data and specifically calling for PSB". The stuff is a VERY fine grained ball of plastic that has a mind of it's own if you spill any - goes everywhere!

Another postt in the same thread>>http://shootersforum.com/showpost.ht...17&postcount=6

Brad- Use the Puff-lon! It is available from Puff-Lon 344 LCR 759 Groesbeck Texas 76642-2118. They are on the net at www.pufflon.com. I use it in my 577-450 Martini and it solves up the filler problem without the hammering that cereal fillers impose on your brass and rifle. I got the 500cc container and have gotten a couple of hundred rounds out of it and probably have another 100 left-Cariboo

[Sport45]

The last thing I want is a barrel obstruction and I do hunt in rain and temps as low as -20.

Not to stray too far off the subject, but I think I'd recommend leaving the 300RUM with plinker loads at home and taking a cheap .22 out for that kind of hunting.

For reduced loads I've found Titegroup or Unique under a cast bullet to work well.

[darkgael]

I use PuffLon in the one cartridge that I load that needs a filler - the old Martini-Henry 577-450. After the powder charge, one drops PuffLon to the mouth of the case and then seats the bullet. Another suitable filler is kapok fiber.
Pete

[300magman]

Ummm...Sport 45
.22lr = 40gr at 1280fps for 146ft/lb energy
.223 = 60gr at 3000fps for 1200ft/lb energy
Reduced 300 RUM = 165gr at 2900fps for 3081ft/lb energy

.22s are for wraskally wabbits (said with best Elmer Fud voice) but I can find myself hunting deer in some very cold/wet weather, on occasion.


I do admit, that I have not begun handloading for the 300RUM yet and I do not know if a filler materials will be safe or wise...I just took a look at my reloading manual and had the thought that some of the minimum loads might leave that big case with a lot of empty room. ... A little off topic, but some cheap factory winchester 22-250 (45gr at 4000fps) that I've been shooting sounds like it has Considerable space inside, even on that small case.

[Scrapperz]

Someone on another forum asks about polyfill in case your interested here it is >>http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=521208

Polyfill
Morning all!

First let me say I'm a newbie to reloading. I've googled my question as well as searched the boards and haven't found much regarding polyfill.

I am reloading .45LC with 6 grains of HP38. This leaves a fairly large open space in my case. I am considering using polyfill to fill up this gap, but I have seen on You Tube that it is important to weigh the polyfill.

My question is how much polyfill should I use, and how do I ensure I don't cause overpressure?

Thanks!

[Malamute]

I use a tiny amount of dacron pillow stuffing. The ball of dacron (not tightly packed or rolled) I use in 30-30 is about the diameter of a 45 cal ball, lightly tamped in over the powder with a pencil. I don't use the term "filler". That denotes something the fills to me, the dacron just helps hold the powder close to the primer for more uniform ignition when using 3 grs Unique with a round ball in the 30-30 for a grouse and small game load. I use the same charge in 348 with a round ball for the same uses, and a small tuft of dacron. Some powders don't seem to need the dacron for uniform ignition, Unique does seem to.


I don't think you could have a problem with collecting water with dacron in the barrel. It's entirly burned up when fired as far as I can tell, and is sealed in the case before shooting.

[riverwalker76]

In older BP 45/70 loads I have used dehydrated oak sawdust as a filler.

I'm sure Midway sells those little wafers don't they?

[William T. Watts]

My suggestion is use a powder that more nearly fills available space and forget about fillers. Now to the other point that has been raised about ringed barrels, I have absolutely read about people reporting ringing barrels with fillers, if you want a source I can't furnish one. I will readily admit most (but not all) of the articles I've read about ringing occurs with black powder, it goes without saying these are weak actions and with yesteryears steels! My suggestion is don't make things hard because you can, that piece of advice came from David Nolen one of my gunsmith instructors at Trinidad St. Jr College! William

[Sport45]

Reduced 300 RUM = 165gr at 2900fps for 3081ft/lb energy

That's not what I pictured at all when you said reduced loads. That's .30-06 territory. A reduced load for me is 5 grains or so of a fast pistol powder under a cast bullet. Small children can have a lot of fun shooting 7.7Jap, .30-06, and .375Win that way. And a .22lr would be just as effective for hunting.

As for 165gr at 2900fps, I don't think many, if any, of the loads mentioned above will get you anywhere near that.

I'm can find myself hunting deer in some very cold/wet weather, on occasion.

The primer and bullet both have interference fits in the casing. The reduced loads that have been mentioned will hold up to cold and wet just as well as any full-house load.

Why are you downloading a magnum to hunt? I tend to think of downloading as a means for cheap(er) plinking and range time, not hunting. Unless it's hunting for "wraskally wabbits."

[300magman]

I hunt quite varried and mostly open terrain. When I head out for a day I could find myself needing to take 50 yard shots or seeing game farther off than I can shoot (say 1500 yards)

Have a loaded down 300RUM in one hand and a full power load in the other would give me a lot more flexibility to reach out and touch something, without exploding the unlucky deer that pokes it head up 50 yards away.

The real trick is finding a reduced load that shoots close enough to the same POI as the full power load, to not worry about the difference for the first two hundred yards or so, where I would be using that reduced load.

[totaldla]

I don't know what you mean by "reduced loads", so I may be way off base. I make plinkers in large rifle cases using Hodgdon Clays. For example, my 45/70 plinker is a 500gr cast bullet at 750fps. My 30-30 plinker is a 165gr cast bullet @1100fps. I have been using WLP primers, which are as hot as "magnum" primers, so this may be a factor. I don't have any position sensitivity. I've never tried them in cold weather, so I don't know for sure what will happen (Clays is temp sensitive). No fillers. My 30-30 plinker is as accurate as any 22lr I've owned and I hear the hammer "CLACK" more than the muzzle report when firing.

Here is a great source of reduced load info
Levergun Performance Studies reduced load information

[Brian Pfleuger]

Have a loaded down 300RUM in one hand and a full power load in the other would give me a lot more flexibility to reach out and touch something, without exploding the unlucky deer that pokes it head up 50 yards away.

The real trick is finding a reduced load that shoots close enough to the same POI as the full power load, to not worry about the difference for the first two hundred yards or so, where I would be using that reduced load.

I think Trail Boss may be your answer.

The only caution from IMR is that Trail Boss MUST NOT be compressed. They state plainly that loading right up to the base of your bullet will be perfectly safe, regardless of cartridge, but suggest starting at 70% usable volume and working to 100% until the most accurate load is found.

[eskimo36]

I am a proponent of Trail Boss. I shoot it in everything from 25-35 up to 405 Win, 416 Rigby and 9.3x74r. Try it.

[Sport45]

Trail Boss is good, but I think it will be getting him in the 1900fps range and not the 2900fps he's looking for.

Richard Lee's Modern Reloading has a section on reduced loads with a formula for calculating charge weights. I don't know if it applies to jacketed bullets as it's been a long time since I read it. If you have a relatively fast rifle powder load (like H-4895 or faster) for your cartridge you can probably download it a bit following Lee's advice. I wouldn't use a filler of any kind.

Don't you worry about spooking the close deer when you have to dig around in your pockets to select the right cartridge for the range? A .300RUM to the neck should do the job without loosing much meat no matter the distance.

The real trick is finding a reduced load that shoots close enough to the same POI as the full power load, to not worry about the difference for the first two hundred yards or so, where I would be using that reduced load.

I agree. That's going to be a problem.

[300magman]

Don't you worry about spooking the close deer when you have to dig around in your pockets to select the right cartridge for the range? A .300RUM to the neck should do the job without loosing much meat no matter the distance.

Chambering a reduced (30.06 equivalent) load while carrying full power loads in the mag works well. If anything pops up close, your ready...if anything is far enough that you need a full load then working the bolt once isn't going to spook a deer that is that far away or significantly slow down my shooting.
As for accuracy, the two don't need to be ballistic twins, if they are within 1-2MOA of each other that puts you in the kill zone over the first few hundred yards. (Incidentally, remington does..or at least used to..advertise the 300RUM as the ultimate versatile rifle round based on the fact that you could switch from its power level 1,2,3 ammo without rezeroing your rifle) I always wondered how they could make that assumption about "every rifle" which they were generally advertising thier ammo for.

And back on topic, thanks for the suggestions everyone...I definetly learned a few new things reading your replys.

[dahermit]

In regard to using Polyester pillow fiber; I experimented with it for a time with cast lead bullets in rifles. I found that if the rifle was not cleaned promptly after firing, rust in the bore would result. When consulting a person with extensive chemical knowledge, I was told that one of the products of the combustion of Polyester fiber was water. Therefore, I stopped using it as a filler.

[Unclenick]

Water is also one of the combustion products of smokeless gunpowder, and that doesn't rust anything. I think the problem might be that one method of synthesizing PET, which is the common form of polyester used in fibers and to mold pop bottles and the like, evolves hydrochloric acid. That should be removed from the finished product, but if that was not done properly, chlorine in any form will, indeed, initiate rusting. I don't know how to determine which synthesis method your particular polyester was made by?

But all that's speculative. I've also had fine bore rust before just using normal loading components. I was forced to conclude it was because that barrel had been the object of trials with different bore cleaners, but I never identified what was specifically responsible?