Berrys .45 ACP SWC

Jeryray · March 4, 2017, 01:07 AM

I just went from 230g RN to 185g SWC. Using Dillon 550.

Having a hard time getting the heads seated straight.
lots of failures fitting the .45 gauge.

I tried turning the seating head and it did not help.
Went back to the round nose.

Anyone else have this problem?

BTW the Berrys 148g swc work just fine in my .38 head.

AVirginian · March 4, 2017, 06:52 AM

What brand dies are you using?

You might want to flare the case just a bit more so that the bullet starts a tad deeper.

Jeryray · March 4, 2017, 08:57 AM

Dillon XL650 comes with dies, and I have their 9mm, .38, .45 heads.

Hammerhead · March 4, 2017, 07:09 PM

Most die makers offer seating stems for SWC's that push on the shoulder and keep them straight, call dillon

Jeryray · March 5, 2017, 12:50 AM

I called Dillon, they just have that one die that has the reversible seater.

Really needs a flat type?

I looked at both side, one is for round heads, the other is for hollow points, but does not fit the berrys head.

Looks like a custom seater is needed.

Dillon is sending a 10mm seater for me to try.

Jim Watson · March 5, 2017, 01:13 AM

Unique Tek has a SWC seating plug that bears only on the shoulder.
http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T15...ory%2F41374518

std7mag · March 5, 2017, 10:22 AM

Really it sounds like you are not expanding the mouth of the casing enough.

I have my dies set so that I can seat a 200gr. Hornady LSWC C/T.
Have no problems with any other bullets.

Had the "bullet" bulge problem seating heavy bullets in the 40 S&W, slight opening of the expander cleared that.

If the bullet itself is not seating straight, try turning the casing in the shell holder and running it up through the seating die again, before you crimp.

Hammerhead · March 5, 2017, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Really needs a flat type?

SWC's need a hollow stem that pushes on the shoulder only, not the nose.

In .45 auto it's very easy to seat bullets a little crooked. The SWC with a seating stem that pushes on the shoulder eliminates crooked seating, probably one of the reasons why SWC's have such a good reputation for accuracy.

If it were me I would be ordering that stem in Jim Watson's link, looks perfect.

Jeryray · March 7, 2017, 12:50 AM

Excellent, I ordered a .38 and a .45

Thanks

Jeryray · March 10, 2017, 01:35 AM

I can't get these 185 SWC heads to cycle my new sig 220.

When I use 230g heads with 4.1 bullyseye, they feed fine.

When I use 4.5 bullseye with the 185 G SWC, every other one does not eject.

I really don't want to load more than 4.5

Anyone make a reduced recoil spring for the sig P220 match Elite?

Jeryray · March 10, 2017, 01:48 PM

Anyone?

**Unclenick** · March 10, 2017, 05:12 PM

4.2 grains of Bullseye behind a 185 grain SWC is an old standby equivalent for commercial match ammunition that uses jacketed bullets. However, old bullseye 1911 guns generally had a lighter recoil spring than standard so they would cycle properly with it. With that light bullet weight, it sounds like your SIG just needs a bigger charge to get enough momentum (the thing that is equal and opposite) to cycle full power springs. It's not uncommon. Figure that 5 grains of Bullseye behind a 230 grain bullet is an old standby WWI era load to get about 825 fps, which is what QuickLOAD predicts for it in a 5" barrel. Your 4.5 grain load it predicts would produce about 778 fps with such a barrel. To generate the same momentum as a 230 grain bullet at 778 fps, the 185 grain bullet has to be going 942 fps. If your COL is about 1.2" with it, QuickLOAD predicts that will require 5.6 grains of Bullseye. Alliant's load book gives 6.4 grains as maximum with the plated jacket Speer Gold Dot, so you should be fine at 5.6. Still, it may well be more than you need minimally, so try 5 grains first, then 5.3.

I know you don't want to increase your powder charge, but it looks like the laws of physics are thumbing their collective noses at you in this case. You can also inquire of Sig about lightening the gun's springs for target level loads.

As to keeping the bullets straight, I've tackled that problem in both my Square Deal B and a friend's 1050. Both solutions involved my lathe. I made a Lyman M profile powder drop tube for the Square Deal that puts a step in the case mouth along with the flare and that keeps the bullet straight upright as it starts into the seating die. On the 1050 I turned a seater stem in the shape of the H&G 68 200 grain SWC's we were loading with it.

Some folks have gotten a spare seating stem from Dillon, degreased it and filled it with JB Weld and pressed a waxed bullet into it to make a custom seater. The trick here is getting the waxed bullet in straight so it aligns well. An arbor press or a drill press will let you set the bullet base flat on its platform then square up the stem of the flat bottom of the press ram or chuck it in the drill press.

Jeryray · March 10, 2017, 06:58 PM

Thank you for the detailed information. Those loads work fine in my 1911 model 70.

Called sig, they are sending me 3 springs.

They say many users cut the springs for target loads.

I have an extra spring and took 1/2 off.

Next time at the range I will bring the special spring cutter I have and trim THAT spring for the 185 heads.

Thanks, will follow up once I make the tests.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 10, 2017, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

As to keeping the bullets straight, I've tackled that problem in both my Square Deal B and a friend's 1050. Both solutions involved my lathe. I made a Lyman M profile powder drop tube for the Square Deal that puts a step in the case mouth along with the flare and that keeps the bullet straight upright as it starts into the seating die. On the 1050 I turned a seater stem in the shape of the H&G 68 200 grain SWC's we were loading with it.

Some folks have gotten a spare seating stem from Dillon, degreased it and filled it with JB Weld and pressed a waxed bullet into it to make a custom seater. The trick here is getting the waxed bullet in straight so it aligns well. An arbor press or a drill press will let you set the bullet base flat on its platform then square up the stem of the flat bottom of the press ram or chuck it in the drill press.

Lee will make a custom bullet seater plug if you send them a sample of the bullet. I plan to do that for loading Berry's 200-grain SWC in .45 ACP. I'll also buy a spare seating die body, just because I'd rather have one die set up for round nose and another die set up for the SWC, rather than swapping plugs and having to adjust the die every time I change what bullet I'm loading.

Jeryray · March 11, 2017, 07:59 AM

I did not realize Berry's made a 200g SWC, that might have been a better choice. But I have 2k of the 185 to use first.

The 200 might have cycled the Sig a little better..

**Aguila Blanca** · March 11, 2017, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeryray

Berrys .45 ACP SWC
I just went from 230g RN to 185g SWC. Using Dillon 550.

Out of curiosity, are you sure the above is correct? I've been using Berry's bullets for years. I have their catalog right next to me. They don't list a 185-grain SWC bullet, either in their plated line or their hard-cast lead line. Not in the catalog or on the web site. I realize this doesn't change any of the answers to the problem of bullets tipping in the case mouth, but I'm still curious.

g.willikers · March 11, 2017, 11:46 AM

You made me go look.
My Dillon Square Deal just uses a very ordinary looking bullet seater, not one designed for the shoulder of a swc bullet.
Nothing to suggest it was for a swc specifically.
And it works just fine for 200 grain swc.
I've also used it for 185s without a problem.
There's lots of versions of swc bullets that vary in shape from the various manufacturers.
Different profiles in body and nose - and sizes.
Maybe there's something else amiss or more agreeable with your equipment.

Question:
Who under the age of 93 calls bullets "Heads?"
The head is the base of the cartridge, where the primer goes.
That's because when the round is standing upright at attention, it's actually standing on its head.

Jeryray · March 11, 2017, 08:00 PM

OK, I give up on the 185 SWC. Cut the spring did not help, still has problems feeding. Guess this sig only likes the round heads.

Benn calling them that for over 40 years.
In my time a "Junkie" was a guy that sold car parts....

Going to call berrys and return some new boxes.

Hammerhead · March 12, 2017, 03:00 AM

I never could get my P220 stainless to feed SWC's reliably.

Jeryray · March 12, 2017, 08:22 AM

Yes, me too.

My 40 yr old 1911 model 70 woks them just fine though...

Jim Watson · March 12, 2017, 08:34 AM

My first P220 would not handle semiwadcutters. When I figured out why, I traded it off because I had wanted to be able to use the same ammo in it as in "throated" 1911s.
I later bought another P220 because I like the type but I do not ask it to try to shoot SWCs.

Jeryray · March 12, 2017, 02:20 PM

Thanks Jim, would have been nice because the SWC leaves a nice hole on the target.

My 230g load was 4.2 Bullseye. 100 rounds fed and fired just fine.

I just made 25 rounds at 4.0 Bullseye, want to see if they still feed ok.

BTW, this gun is the Supermatch, 5 inch SS Slide, with adjustable sights. Very Accurate, a little better than my 30-40 yr old 1911.

I need to call Berry and exchange a brand new box of 185 SWC.

March 4, 2017, 01:07 AM	#1
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	Berrys .45 ACP SWC I just went from 230g RN to 185g SWC. Using Dillon 550. Having a hard time getting the heads seated straight. lots of failures fitting the .45 gauge. I tried turning the seating head and it did not help. Went back to the round nose. Anyone else have this problem? BTW the Berrys 148g swc work just fine in my .38 head.

March 10, 2017, 05:12 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	4.2 grains of Bullseye behind a 185 grain SWC is an old standby equivalent for commercial match ammunition that uses jacketed bullets. However, old bullseye 1911 guns generally had a lighter recoil spring than standard so they would cycle properly with it. With that light bullet weight, it sounds like your SIG just needs a bigger charge to get enough momentum (the thing that is equal and opposite) to cycle full power springs. It's not uncommon. Figure that 5 grains of Bullseye behind a 230 grain bullet is an old standby WWI era load to get about 825 fps, which is what QuickLOAD predicts for it in a 5" barrel. Your 4.5 grain load it predicts would produce about 778 fps with such a barrel. To generate the same momentum as a 230 grain bullet at 778 fps, the 185 grain bullet has to be going 942 fps. If your COL is about 1.2" with it, QuickLOAD predicts that will require 5.6 grains of Bullseye. Alliant's load book gives 6.4 grains as maximum with the plated jacket Speer Gold Dot, so you should be fine at 5.6. Still, it may well be more than you need minimally, so try 5 grains first, then 5.3. I know you don't want to increase your powder charge, but it looks like the laws of physics are thumbing their collective noses at you in this case. You can also inquire of Sig about lightening the gun's springs for target level loads. As to keeping the bullets straight, I've tackled that problem in both my Square Deal B and a friend's 1050. Both solutions involved my lathe. I made a Lyman M profile powder drop tube for the Square Deal that puts a step in the case mouth along with the flare and that keeps the bullet straight upright as it starts into the seating die. On the 1050 I turned a seater stem in the shape of the H&G 68 200 grain SWC's we were loading with it. Some folks have gotten a spare seating stem from Dillon, degreased it and filled it with JB Weld and pressed a waxed bullet into it to make a custom seater. The trick here is getting the waxed bullet in straight so it aligns well. An arbor press or a drill press will let you set the bullet base flat on its platform then square up the stem of the flat bottom of the press ram or chuck it in the drill press. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 11, 2017, 11:46 AM	#17
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	You made me go look. My Dillon Square Deal just uses a very ordinary looking bullet seater, not one designed for the shoulder of a swc bullet. Nothing to suggest it was for a swc specifically. And it works just fine for 200 grain swc. I've also used it for 185s without a problem. There's lots of versions of swc bullets that vary in shape from the various manufacturers. Different profiles in body and nose - and sizes. Maybe there's something else amiss or more agreeable with your equipment. Question: Who under the age of 93 calls bullets "Heads?" The head is the base of the cartridge, where the primer goes. That's because when the round is standing upright at attention, it's actually standing on its head. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; March 11, 2017 at 12:07 PM.

March 4, 2017, 06:52 AM	#2
AVirginian Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2014 Posts: 128	What brand dies are you using? You might want to flare the case just a bit more so that the bullet starts a tad deeper.

March 4, 2017, 08:57 AM	#3
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	Dillon XL650 comes with dies, and I have their 9mm, .38, .45 heads.

March 4, 2017, 07:09 PM	#4
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	Most die makers offer seating stems for SWC's that push on the shoulder and keep them straight, call dillon

March 5, 2017, 12:50 AM	#5
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	I called Dillon, they just have that one die that has the reversible seater. Really needs a flat type? I looked at both side, one is for round heads, the other is for hollow points, but does not fit the berrys head. Looks like a custom seater is needed. Dillon is sending a 10mm seater for me to try.

March 5, 2017, 01:13 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Unique Tek has a SWC seating plug that bears only on the shoulder. http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T15...ory%2F41374518

March 5, 2017, 10:22 AM	#7
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Really it sounds like you are not expanding the mouth of the casing enough. I have my dies set so that I can seat a 200gr. Hornady LSWC C/T. Have no problems with any other bullets. Had the "bullet" bulge problem seating heavy bullets in the 40 S&W, slight opening of the expander cleared that. If the bullet itself is not seating straight, try turning the casing in the shell holder and running it up through the seating die again, before you crimp.

March 7, 2017, 12:50 AM	#9
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	Excellent, I ordered a .38 and a .45 Thanks

March 10, 2017, 01:35 AM	#10
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	I can't get these 185 SWC heads to cycle my new sig 220. When I use 230g heads with 4.1 bullyseye, they feed fine. When I use 4.5 bullseye with the 185 G SWC, every other one does not eject. I really don't want to load more than 4.5 Anyone make a reduced recoil spring for the sig P220 match Elite?

March 10, 2017, 01:48 PM	#11
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	Anyone?

March 10, 2017, 06:58 PM	#13
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	Thank you for the detailed information. Those loads work fine in my 1911 model 70. Called sig, they are sending me 3 springs. They say many users cut the springs for target loads. I have an extra spring and took 1/2 off. Next time at the range I will bring the special spring cutter I have and trim THAT spring for the 185 heads. Thanks, will follow up once I make the tests.

March 11, 2017, 07:59 AM	#15
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	I did not realize Berry's made a 200g SWC, that might have been a better choice. But I have 2k of the 185 to use first. The 200 might have cycled the Sig a little better..

March 11, 2017, 08:00 PM	#18
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	OK, I give up on the 185 SWC. Cut the spring did not help, still has problems feeding. Guess this sig only likes the round heads. Benn calling them that for over 40 years. In my time a "Junkie" was a guy that sold car parts.... Going to call berrys and return some new boxes.

March 12, 2017, 03:00 AM	#19
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	I never could get my P220 stainless to feed SWC's reliably.

March 12, 2017, 08:22 AM	#20
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	Yes, me too. My 40 yr old 1911 model 70 woks them just fine though...

March 12, 2017, 08:34 AM	#21
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	My first P220 would not handle semiwadcutters. When I figured out why, I traded it off because I had wanted to be able to use the same ammo in it as in "throated" 1911s. I later bought another P220 because I like the type but I do not ask it to try to shoot SWCs.

March 12, 2017, 02:20 PM	#22
Jeryray Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2016 Location: NY Area Posts: 310	Thanks Jim, would have been nice because the SWC leaves a nice hole on the target. My 230g load was 4.2 Bullseye. 100 rounds fed and fired just fine. I just made 25 rounds at 4.0 Bullseye, want to see if they still feed ok. BTW, this gun is the Supermatch, 5 inch SS Slide, with adjustable sights. Very Accurate, a little better than my 30-40 yr old 1911. I need to call Berry and exchange a brand new box of 185 SWC.