Need help finding a bow maker....

[FirstFreedom]

A couple years back I found a website of a certain bow manufacturer which I cannot remember the name of, and which I cannot seem to locate anywhere by keywords and searching forums & such. Maybe they went out of business, but maybe not.

Anyway, it was a really unique design of a bow - far far shorter axle to axle than most bows, but with a much longer draw length than would look like it would be capable of. It basically looked like a tiny small child's bow, but which pulled back to full adult draw length, and otherwise works like any other bow. At full draw, it looks like a diamond stretched left to right - the riser was short, IIRC, and the limbs angled sharply back at 45 degrees or more before the draw even.

Anyone know which bow I'm talking about? Thanks for your help.

[FirstFreedom]

Nevermind; Found it; Liberty Archery:

http://www.libertyarchery.com/

[FirstFreedom]

Sorry to keep replying to myself, but is anyone else besides me intrigued with this bow? Read the pages there on Specifications, Design History, and the Testimonials (some of which are actual photocopies of customer's comments on the warranty registration cards), and tell me what you think.

Aside from the obvious huge advantage of size & weight savings (easier to shoot in a blind, easier to shoot sitting down, easier to shoot in and among tree branches, much lighter & easier to tote around long distances, etc.), they are purported to be extremely accurate, as well as quiet, smooth, improved letoff % (85%), and "recoil-less". Drawback is that very few standard accessories fit it without modification - you need sights made for it, a peep made just for it, etc. OK, you can use standard arrows though, thankfully.

[SavageSniper]

Wow, its a bullpup bow. Looks very interesting. Have you ever seen or shot one before?

[FirstFreedom]

bullpup bow

hee, hee....didn't think of that. Nope, never shot one or even seen in person, but I have a phone message in to one of the few stocking retailers - one of whom happens to leave here in my state. Want to go handle them.

[FirstFreedom]

Hey I talked to the guy today and I may go down Friday to handle them - the dealer is in a town that is only an hour and 15 minute drive from me. He says he's sold a lot of them, and that they shoot great. He says they're becoming more popular and made the statement that "on the West coast, these outsell Matthews by four to one, and on the East coast, they outsell Matthews two to one." That's the allegation, anyhow...

[Playboypenguin]

Just do like I do and swallow about 800mg of ibuprofen before going to the range.

[FirstFreedom]

Did you reply to the wrong thread, PP? Cuz I don't get it.

[Playboypenguin]

Did you reply to the wrong thread, PP? Cuz I don't get it.

I did...that was supposed to go in the "tennis elbow from shooting" thread.
Still, it is good advice for bow hunting too.

[samoand]

Interesting. Angle of the fully drawn string seems so sharp that I wonder if you can use it without release. Can you check that if you do go? Just curious.

[zeisloft]

Yea, looks like you could only use a string loop. let us know what you think. I'm not in the market...yet. I have been shooting a MQ1 since 98 and it has not made me sad once. But I'm always curious about the better mouse trap.
~z

[samoand]

So... did you go? What do you think?

[FirstFreedom]

Hey guys...no, not yet...my assistant scheduled an appt for me Fri morning so couldn't go - I'm trying to get down there this Thurs instead - we'll see. I'll let you know. I'm leaning toward actually getting one if I try it out and it shoots nicely for me. I'm pumped - it's gonna be super cool if it performs as advertised. The main thing is bulk & weight savings - shooting around limbs from a tree, shooting while seated, inside a blind, etc.

I will check on shooting fingers - I doubt that that would work very well. I'd imagine you could shoot either with OR without loop though, with a release. I use a release unless I'm shooting a long bow or recurve. I put in for 4 traditional-bow-only controlled hunts for this fall here at the McAlester Army Ammunition Plant (AAP). If I get drawn for any of them, I will be practicing a lot with my long bow between now and then. But that's another subject as the Liberty is a compound, and those aren't allowed on the AAP hunts:

http://www.mcaapcontrolledhunts.com/

[ZeroJunk]

It will be good to get a perspective from somebody known to not have any vested interest.Shorter bows are obviously easier to deal with,especially on horseback.I hated getting on a horse in the dark with a bow strapped across your back.You turn it straight to keep it from hitting limbs and stuff on the sides and then it starts goosing the horse in the rump, which he will eventually remind you that he doesn't like. The complaint has always been that they are less forgiving and limit your choice of release.Look forward to your review.

[samoand]

:d

[bcarver]

I was aiso intrigued.
Some one asked about finger shooting.
Owner suggest only loop with release.
Finger shooting voids warrenty.

Three thing I look for in a bow. 1.Weight,2. Length.3. Let-off
Liberty wins #1 hands down
#2 hands down
#3 5 percent ahead of most competition.
The only other points are noise and speed. Speed being the least important.
If it is a quiet as they say it is I will be in the market.

[FirstFreedom]

Three thing I look for in a bow. 1.Weight,2. Length.3. Let-off
Liberty wins #1 hands down
#2 hands down
#3 5 percent ahead of most competition.
The only other points are noise and speed. Speed being the least important.
If it is a quiet as they say it is I will be in the market.

ThisiswhatI'msayin.......

The history blurb there says that the early models were loud, but now they're quiet with a few engineering changes - I don't think they claim to be quieter than other bows; but just the same as other good bows on noise.

http://www.libertyarchery.com/specifications.html

http://www.libertyarchery.com/DesignHistory.html

http://www.libertyarchery.com/Accessories.html

http://www.libertyarchery.com/UserComments.html

[SavageSniper]

I read somewhere about a quiver for this bow. IMO, that would take away from the small package that appeals to me with this bow.

[FirstFreedom]

Yeah, and besides, you only need one arrow 98% of the time, if you need any, that is.

I bumped this just to let y'all know (some have expressed interest) that this bow is the VERY next thing on my "to-buy" list, after getting my Sig GSR out of "hock" (layaway). I keep a running priority list on the puter of both things I want and necessity unusual expenses like car & home repairs, and this thing finally trickled its way to the top. So likely by the end of August, or mid-September at the latest I should have gotten one, tested it, and reported back here - just a heads up. I can't seem to get this bow out of my head, though (and thus off my list).

But PS, no, I still haven't even run down and handled one in person yet - have had a lot of turmoil in my life last 2 months.....

[FirstFreedom]

Finally got down today to the little town of Carnegie, Oklahoma, where Chuck at "Bubba's Sporting Goods" (really) showed me the bow - he had 4 in stock. I was very impressed - it was all I thought it would be. You wouldn't believe how tiny this bow is. I put one on layaway - a 29.3" draw, 60-70 lb one, which has been decked out with sights, quiver mount, peep sight, string silencers, and whisker biscuit. His liability insurance company made him shut down his indoor range, so I couldn't shoot it, but I did draw it 5 or 6 times. The 85% letoff is incredible - letting it up is a trick - walking a tightrope between letting up enough to let it release, without slingshotting your arm forward. I hope to get it home in a week or so, and practice enough with it to use by this fall.

Question: What type of fletching holds up best to the whisker biscuit - blazer vanes or what? What about goose feather arrows - will the biscuit shred them or not? Thanks.

Chuck has a picture on his "trophy board" of a friend of his that got two does in about 5 minutes with a liberty bow. He's a real good ol boy - call him if you have any questions about these bows - he's pretty knowledgeable, and has been in the sporting goods business a long time, and is an avid bowhunter himself. His contact info is on the Liberty website under Dealer Locator.

[FirstFreedom]

Oops, decided the 29.3" was too long; having them order a 28.0" Chuck says these things are going nuts, with calls from all over coming in.....

Savage, I agree - I won't be putting a quiver on mine. I'll just take my one arrow I'm hunting with, and throw one other spare arrow into some sort of quiver and put it in the backpack.

[onlybrowning]

Use a decent brand fletch (duravane, Blazer, etc) with the new Biscuit and don't worry. I have never had a vane be adversely affected by the new biscuit design. They are a great hunting rest. I wonder how the stability of the bow is in hand while shooting. Referring to the tiny axle to axle length.

[FirstFreedom]

Thanks, onlybrowning, that helps. But what exactly do you mean by "stability" in that context? Whether the bow jiggles/moves during the release? Would you be concerned about left-right, up-down, forward canting, yawing, or spinning movement, or all of the above? Why do you ask that?

Chuck says he sold 3 of the 4 Liberties he had in stock on Sunday.

I ordered the 65-75 #, 28.0" draw length. They have a 60-70 and a 65-75 both (and other weights as well), so went with the slightly higher in this range, since I keep my 60-70 Hoyt on at least 65 all the time now, and it's comfortable for me to shoot easily.

Bow Report

By Bill Krenz


Liberty I

Bowhunters have long been fascinated by short, light hunting bows.

Forty years ago, recurve hunting bows as short as fifty-two inches sold very well, and others that were even shorter were offered.
Short compounds have also long held appeal. There is no disputing the fact that for at least the past thirty years, popular compound
bows have been getting shorter. In 1985, the axle-to-axle length of the average compound bow was somewhere in the neighborhood
of forty-five inches. By 1995, the average compound length had shrunk to less than forty inches. Today, it seems to be hovering
between thirty-three and thirty-six inches. The three-decade progression to shorter and shorter compound bows is well established.

What is also well known is the history of indignation and alarm that has sounded as compounds bows have shrunk. Old-liners,
clinging to convention, have routinely condemned every shortening step along the way. I remember when compound lengths first
dipped into the low-forties. That seems long ago now, but back then detractors roared that such “short” compounds could never be
shot accurately. Bowhunters bought those bows and loved them anyway.

The exact same thing happened when compounds plunged with abandon below the forty-inch mark and then the thirty-five inch mark.
The howls of protest and righteous anger sounded loud and clear. “Those bows can’t be accurate.”

Yet the march continued and bows did go shorter. And deer, bears, elk and more all continued to fall.

I recently tested a radical new compound hunting bow called the Liberty I. Remarkably, the Liberty I measures just over twenty inches
axle to axle. Yes, you read that right––twenty inches! It also weighs a scant 2.3 pounds, making it the shortest, lightest adult
compound bow available at this time. In fact, it’s over a foot shorter and nearly two pounds lighter than most of today’s compound
hunting bows.

Initial reactions to the Liberty I are boringly predictable. I’ve shown my Liberty I sample to a variety of bowhunters. The first reaction is
typically one of disbelief. “Is this for real?” The second reaction is one of unbridled fascination. It’s hard to get the Liberty I out of their
hands. Sometime after that, the old biases pop predictably up. “It can’t shoot all that well. It’s definitely cool, but isn’t it too short?”

The Liberty I is an amazing bow. It’s space-age, high-tech and unquestionably far out. Its axle-to-axle length is a good eight inches
shorter than the length of my normal hunting arrows. Yet, surprisingly, the Liberty I shoots amazingly well. I must admit that I was
surprised at just how fast and accurate the Liberty I performs. But on top of all that, the Liberty I is just plain cool.

One friend called it the coolest bow he’d ever shot. That sums up the Liberty I better than more words ever could.


KEY SELLING POINTS

Astonishingly Short
At just 20.5 inches axle-to-axle, the Liberty I is a compound bow venturing off into uncharted but exciting territory. Think about just
how short that is. It’s the length of three dollar bills and two quarters laid end to end. It’s five four-inch vanes. It’s just a bit taller than a
LaCrosse rubber boot. It’s compact with a capital “C.” It’s bold to the point of being almost electrifying. Hang one up in any archery
shop in the country and I guarantee it will be the topic of conversation.

“My intent was to create a very small, lightweight hunting package,” says Howard Winther, the bow’s designer and manufacturer. “I
wanted a bow that I could hook onto my backpack and not even feel it as I hiked along. I was looking for a bow that would fit into the
corner of my car truck and carry anywhere.”

The heart of the Liberty I design is its phantom shoot-through riser. The riser and limb pockets combined only measure a bit over four
inches in height. From profile, it’s almost as if a riser doesn’t exist. When you get behind the bow to shoot it, however, the true nature
of the Liberty I’s riser emerges and a generous 2.5-inch wide shoot-through gap becomes evident. That gap is artfully curved and
ruggedly designed.

Amazingly Light
By almost totally eliminating the length and mass of a conventional compound bow riser, the Liberty I is rendered astonishingly short
and amazingly light in weight. On my scale, the Liberty I weighed just 2.3 pounds. Blend 20.5 inches in length with 2.3 pounds and
you have a compound bow that carries like no full-power compound bow you have ever picked up. Strap it onto your daypack (or
maybe even put it inside a bigger pack), hook it to your belt or just carry it in your hand. The Liberty I rides like it’s not there.

Balanced Split-Cam Design
Perfectly complementing the bow’s shoot-through riser design is its split cam design. In effect, each skeletonized cam is over an inch
wide. That extra width creates a balanced spread between the bow’s two sets of cables that is over 1.5 inches wide at the bow’s
center. An arrow is nocked and shot between those sets of metal cable, as well as between the bow’s limbs and through the bow’s
riser. It’s a riser-limb-eccentric system with excellent balance.

Erogometric Angled Cushion Grip
To keep the inside cable set from hitting your bow arm, The Liberty I features a well-shaped grip that’s angled at a pleasing twenty-
nine degrees. That angle moves your bow arm out, as well as comfortably positioning your bow hand. I shot the Liberty I without an
armguard and never experienced a problem.

Surprising Performance
The Liberty I sports an aggressive eccentric system that delivers surprising arrow speed. See the Real Performance chart. Because
of its ultra-short length, string angle at full draw is acute with the Liberty I. That means that a D-loop is a must and a special peep is
also needed. I used a camo cord D-Loop tied in place and an index-finger caliper release with excellent results. I also used a tethered
peep sight designed specifically for the Liberty I and available from Liberty Archery. That special peep sight is available in three hole-
sizes.

Because of the nature of the bow, Liberty Archery suggests that a total-containment arrow rest or a total-containment drop-away rest
be used with the Liberty I. I used a standard Whisker Biscuit arrow rest and it worked perfectly. Built into the front of my sample
Liberty I was a Vital Bow Gear three-pin fiber optic sight. It’s a light, tough sight that works like a charm with the Liberty I. A bowquiver-
mounting bracket is also cleverly integrated into the bow’s diminutive riser.

The acute full-draw string angle took a bit of getting used to as it related to my usual anchor point, but in short order I was drilling
softball-sized groups at 40 yards on a windy day. The Liberty I shoots.

CLOSING THE SALE

This ultra-short, ultra-light hunting bow really is cool, and I’d present it to customers just that way. The Liberty I measures an ultra-
short 20.5 inches axle to axle and weighs just a bit over two pounds. Hand it to most customers and they’ll immediately recognize the
handling and carrying benefits. It’s also a bow that shoots with surprising speed and accuracy.

The new Liberty I will likely be among the coolest new bows for 2005 that you or your customers will ever shoot. Circle #245.

Liberty 1

Manufacturer Liberty Archery
Santa Clara, CA
(408) 988-1127
Circle #245

Model Liberty I
Axle-to-Axle Length 20.5 inches
Brace Height 7 inches
Mass Weight 2.3 pounds
Draw Weights 50#, 60#, 70#, 80#
Draw Lengths 26.35 to 32 inches
Eccentrics High-Speed, Split-Cable Cams
Letoff 85 percent
Grip Erogometric Angled Cushion Grip
Finish Realtree Hardwoods Green HD

[FirstFreedom]

http://www.libertyarchery.com/UserComments.html

http://www.libertyarchery.com/UserComments2.html

http://www.libertyarchery.com/UserComments3.html

http://www.libertyarchery.com/UserComments4.html


Samoand, look at what the website says about drawing with fingers:

STRING ANGLE WARNING
Friends will pick up your bow and try to draw it with there fingers. When they do this the string angle pinches their
fingers and causes extreme pain. Some in this situation just let go and dry fire the bow, others try to let the bow back
down and because of the pain twist the bow severely; consequently cutting the string or derailing the cables. It is very
sad to go on a hunt with your friends and you best buddy ruins your only bow. If your friends want to test the bow,
have them shoot it with a release. Prevent this situation by keeping the bow in the carry case.

PULLING THIS BOW WITH FINGERS VOIDS WARRANTY
This warning is on the invoice and the instruction sheet.

Yet, oddly enough, I pulled it back with fingers 5 or 6 times and didn't feel any pain. My fingers were a bit scrunched, so it would be hard to get a smooth release, so I'm going to use a mechanical release, not fingers, but finger shooting *could* be done in a pinch - get it, pinch?

[FirstFreedom]

Bow came to the dealer by brown truck of happiness today; Picking it up this Saturday. With any luck, I can post pics and possible report on Sat or Sun.