Carrying into friend/acquaintances' homes - Page 3

Sefner · August 24, 2009, 10:36 AM

Thanks for all the input on the topic guys. A few comments from the OP as I've watched this unfold

.

If we are going to argue, as kayla said, over individual autonomy versus the rights of property owners, kayla has that debate won. As much as we'd all like to carry on everyone else's property we simply do not have the right to carry on someone else's property without their permission (at least in the traditional American philosophy. Whether or not we do actually have a moral right to this is a debate for another time). The question then becomes "What is permission?" and that's what I'd like to focus on (before we start beating a dead horse). Obviously a sign saying "no guns" or a bumper sticker on the car that says "Brady Campaign" or "Obama '08" is a pretty clear indication (slight troll there with the Obama one

). Some new points of discussion:

Do you simply assume permission unless otherwise stated as poptime analogized (which is a word) with the shoe example? Why? What about, as some have mentioned, "politeness"?

As TailGator has been trying to ask (and the question I am also most interested in), HOW do you tell people you are carrying (obviously assuming you chose to do so)? Do you tell just the host? Everyone? Do you mention it ahead of time? Try to ask indirectly?

Lastly, assuming that the home owner does NOT let you carry, how do you approach situation then? More specifically how do you education them? How do you say "Hey, it's not me, the lawful CHL holder, that you have to fear, it's the person who comes in here brandishing the gun uninvited."?

We can argue over whether or not we have a right to carry on someone else's property all day, and the debate here has been very good. But we should try to move on before it gets a little out of hand

I think WE would all, upon hearing that a guest is an CHLer, would be more than happy to have them in the house (most of them at least). But remember, we aren't talking about us. We are talking about a slightly random person. From Jim Brady himself to Sarah Palin and everywhere in between. What approach works best for MOST people and avoids the MOST confrontation (because all confrontation can't be avoided)?

Phoebe · August 24, 2009, 10:40 AM

Pax, you don't sound snarky. So, no worries. If anything, you're moving my line a tiny bit more than anyone else has.

I don't need someone to ANNOUNCE anything. I don't know if they even need to ASK me, per se. If I generally know someone conceals, that opens the door for me to ASK them. And, in my life to date, that's how it's worked.

None of my carrying friends have asked permission, but they did let me know they carry. I've never asked any of them to leave their weapons at home or in their vehicle.

It's not some big HONKING deal that needs to be shouted from the rooftops every time someone enters my home.

Let me give you a different example -- I mentioned in a different post, I was out somewhere with a man who I think was carrying. I would not want him in my house carrying because I think he's a bit off. Too much back story, but if the guy does come to my house, I will directly ask him and tell him he can't carry in my house.

I have no problem with him being in my home, but I would have a problem with him being armed and in my home.

Also, I'm not thinking someone is going to try to kill me. If I had that concern, they wouldn't be in my house!!

But back to my real issue. It isn't about drinking or being high or careless. My real issue simply remains that it's my house. To me, the rest is just fluffy theoreticals.

And sorry, Pax, but the King George thing makes no sense to me. His logic may have been the same, but even you admit that a homeowner should have the right to disallow firearms. Your argument is whether one should let the homeowner know. (Unless I've misunderstood you.)

MajorWhiteBoy · August 24, 2009, 10:41 AM

i'd like to think that i have the right to tell folks what they can and can't bring into my yard or house. i'd expect others to feel the same.

the way you guys are talking about disarming vs letting rules be known and expecting folks to follow them doesn't seem appropriate, unless you're talking about physically disarming them yourself. i don't see saying "if you come over, please don't bring your gun" as disarming someone. it's their choice to come and leave the guns at home.

if i knew someone didn't want my guns in their house, i wouldn't do it. i doubt i'd ask them first, though, and i doubt they'd know i was armed.

pax · August 24, 2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajorWB

if i knew someone didn't want my guns in their house, i wouldn't do it. i doubt i'd ask them first, though, and i doubt they'd know i was armed.

Major, that's my bottom line too. But I go one step further: I won't visit them unarmed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayla

I have no problem with him being in my home, but I would have a problem with him being armed and in my home.

Kayla, I can't follow this logic at all. If I don't trust the guy, I don't trust him and that's that. I don't want him around. I'm not worried about things, I worry about people and their intentions. In the case of (sorry guys) adult males specifically, I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me. Because of that awareness ...

A story.

A few years back, a friend got pulled over for a broken taillight while I was in the vehicle. The officer came up to the window & my friend handed over his driver's license and his carry permit. The officer glanced at the DL, and did a double take at the carry permit -- then took a step back, hand on weapon, and (obvious change in physical demeanor and voice meant he was worried) demanded to know if my friend was carrying. Friend said he was, asked how to proceed. The officer disarmed him. As soon as my friend was disarmed, the officer visibly and dramatically relaxed, obviously no longer worried in the slightest, body language not careful or on guard. The officer KNEW the scene was safe now, because he had taken control of "the" weapon. And yet ... all the while, I sat in the passenger seat, equally armed as my friend had been. The officer never addressed me, never really looked at me, and never asked my carry status. And yet he became totally relaxed as soon as he thought he'd gotten control of "THE" weapon. If you define safety as everyone being disarmed, the officer hadn't achieved safety. But he thought he had. And because he thought everyone was disarmed and therefore defenseless, he dramatically relaxed his vigilance, thus becoming far more at risk than he would have been if he'd stayed on full alert knowing there were weapons on scene.

So back to what I was saying. I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me, if he tries hard enough. So if I don't trust the guy to begin with, disarming him really isn't going to do anything for me, safety-wise, and I know it. If the guy sets off my alarms, it isn't safe for me to hang around him, because I can't disarm him entirely -- he will still have his own body, which is larger than mine and more powerful.

Hopefully you follow my logic here; I'm talking about keeping yourself safe! Hinky people are hinky, and should be avoided. Disarming them doesn't make them less dangerous to you. It simply means you don't know what implements they'll use to attack, if that's their plan.

Sorry - that was off topic but needed to be said. Stay safe, k?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayla

If I generally know someone conceals, that opens the door for me to ASK them. And, in my life to date, that's how it's worked.

That's generally how it will work -- among people who do trust each other.

Just don't expect that you actually know who among your friends generally carries. My sweet old grandmother kept a .25 under her mattress for many years -- and voted Democrat for all those years, too. She told me once that she carried for awhile after she left her abusive first husband. Quite a woman, grandma was.

One time at church I told someone I was taking a class; they asked what class and since I didn't have a deflection prepared I told them it was a handgun class. I was soon surrounded by a chattering group of women who each wanted me to know about the firearms they carried in their purses!

Just about blew me away, because of course there were women in that group that I'd NEVER have expected it of!

What I'm saying is that as the homeowner you can't necessarily trust that you know who is or isn't carrying, or even who is likely to be carrying. You can ask the ones you wonder about, but it's a sure bet that you'll miss some of 'em.

Further, as the person who is armed, you can't simply go around telling the whole world about it, just in case someone might object. If you get in the habit of telling everyone, you no longer have a concealed firearm. And it becomes a huge hairy deal rather than simply something you wear every day.

Keep your eye on the people, notsomuch on the objects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefner

HOW do you tell people you are carrying (obviously assuming you chose to do so)? Do you tell just the host? Everyone? Do you mention it ahead of time? Try to ask indirectly?

These days, my friends and relatives all know what I do for a living, so it's different for me. Easy to be cavalier about the "how" when everyone in my life already knows what I do and why I do it.

A long time back, when I was first getting into concealed carry, the single most uncomfortable moment I've ever had while carrying came when I tried to be a good (relative) and inform my (relative) that I was carrying in her home. She didn't quite kick me out of the house, but it was a near thing. I think the only thing that saved me was her knowledge that if she'd tried, her husband and mine would probably both have pitched a fit on my behalf. I felt guilty about that for years (still do, in fact) because there really was no need to make her so uncomfortable. She didn't need to know I was carrying in the first place! My gun was going to stay out of sight and under my control at all times. There was nothing she would have had to do differently simply because I had a gun with me. It was only my own selfish need for approval that made me tell her.

pax

Wuchak · August 24, 2009, 11:32 AM

If you are unsure about your ability to keep your gun concealed and under your complete control at all times e.g. you're one of the morons who unholsters it and sets it on the back of the toilet where it can be forgotten, then you should leave it at home or in the car. This is especially true if there are going to be any children present.

If you know you will be having some adult beverages leave it at home or in the car.

Personally if I invited someone over and they said, "Do you mind if I carry my gun?" I'd find it really creepy.

ATW525 · August 24, 2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Do you simply assume permission unless otherwise stated as poptime analogized (which is a word) with the shoe example? Why? What about, as some have mentioned, "politeness"?

I do assume permission unless otherwise informed. Why? Because it's consistant with the law, at least in my state. If a property owner wants to restrict otherwise lawful activity on their property they are required to inform people either verbally or through posted signage. When it comes to my CCW piece, security trumps politeness at all times. For other firearms I wouldn't have a problem asking for permission first.

Quote:

What approach works best for MOST people and avoids the MOST confrontation (because all confrontation can't be avoided)?

I know the approach that works for me is: don't ask, don't tell and don't even talk about firearms unless somebody strikes up a conversation about them and then keep my participation in said conversation as brief as possible. Since I began following that philosophy, I have avoided confrontation 100% of the time.

Mello2u · August 24, 2009, 11:39 AM

This thread concerns the permission of the land owner to extend an invite to two classes of relationship: 1) friends and 2) acquaintances.

May I assume that your friends are people who have earned your trust? This trust might extent to their carrying weapon on your property and home. If we assume that your friends are people that you know well enough to know their conviction about concealed carry and do not specifically tell them the invitation is to exclude carrying of a firearm, then it is implicit that the invitation includes permission for them to carry a weapon.

Acquaintances are people who have not yet earned your trust.

When extending an invitation to a friend I assume that the invitation includes their carrying a weapon. An invitation to an acquaintance would not automatically include that permission to carry a weapon.

An analogy as the the extent of permission granted to persons on your land could be seen in hunting versus hiking. The invitation is at the whim of the land owner and can include certain parameters or not; also the duration of the permission is up to the land owner. [I am assuming a relationship here where the land owner is not receiving compensation of the use of his property and no contract and reciprocal duties are involved.]

Pax,
While your analogy of the King's exercise of his power over his subjects on his land is illustrative to a point, as with all analogies it breaks down. Fortunately, we in the U.S.A. live in a classless society. We have the 14th Amendment with its equal protection clause. Unfortunately, we have a federal government which is acting more like an Imperial government which regards the People as property and subjects to be ruled much like a king did in feudal times.

I agree that is is morally wrong to insist upon the disarming of a responsible law-abiding adult.

I submit that disarming a responsible law-abiding adult is not within the power of an invitation (Private Action) which excludes a guest from carrying a handgun in your home. It is the choice of the guest to remain or leave.

This is to be distinguished from "State Action" which disarms the people and the people have no choice whether to stay or leave.

Here we have a conflict of rights between one individual's property rights and another individual's right to bear arms. Neither is absolute.

flyguyskt · August 24, 2009, 11:53 AM

KAYLA:

in reading your comments at first i thought...wow she is a gun hater...then i read more and you say" my friends that usually carry i dont ask to leave their guns at home"

So how do you have it? are you concealed pro or against...i'm confused?
if you know someone is carrying your okay with it? but not if you had kids? what does that have to do it? you think that they are going to hand the gun to your child to play with like a frisbee?

next topic:

the alcohol thing...i dont want anyone drunk with a gun in their pocket. but im not going to say they cant enter my home if they are sober. IF your going to be drinking to get drunk...leave the gun at home(how you getting home by the way?)

I personlly only have a few people whos homes i go to. THEYALL know and feel comfortable with the fact that i pack heat everywhere i go...so when im in their homes...they KNOW i have it with me!

but then again most of them are carrying too so its all good.

I don't hang around tree huggers or anti gun people because my opinion of them is that they are idiots...why would i hang around people that i didnt enjoy or who judged me.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 24, 2009, 12:28 PM

I don't understand the practical aspects of this thread.

I get invited - I carry concealed. Why do you think I must announce to the homeowner that I carry?

If they don't want guns - then they should put in on the RSVP or a sign outside.

What about the gun makes it a moral imperative to announce it as compared to my underwear choice.

If you think you are going to ND in a house - well - you shouldn't be carrying anywhere.

Must I tell a Christian that I have a Jewish Star under my shirt? Must I tell you that I'm wearing party underwear?

I carry a reasonable knife also.

If you don't want guns - announce that so I can choose not to come to your house.

As far as the 'my house my rules' - I got a test - take off your clothes - stand by the picture window when the school bus arrives - wait for the law.

If you can't trust someone to carry and they scare you - I got a hint for you - have nothing to do with them. Don't invite them to your house.

rburch · August 24, 2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

I don't think anyone has said you should announce your carry status as you walk in the door.

Quote:

Not trying to fuss with you, Kayla, but how else do you know your host's feelings on the matter? I was particularly addressing those who said they feel they have been rudely treated when someone else carries into their home without advanced permission. There seems no way to gain that permission without bringing up one's status.

Quote:

Kayla, as a practical matter, you've said you'd be mad if your friends didn't tell you that they were armed. Understandable -- but such a position necessarily implies that they do tell you at some point before they enter your property. When and how are you expecting them to tell you, if not at the door?

I think it's best handled long before the time you reach their door. I personally don't go to many people's houses if I don't know them very well.

If people know me, then they know I enjoy guns, and most likely know I have a permit and do carry. I rarely have to ask outright if the person wants me to carry in their home.

At present the only home I've been forbidden to carry in is my girlfriend's parent's house. Her mother thinks it's stupid of me to carry all the time (of course, that might be because she thinks everything I do is stupid) She's not anti gun (they own several) just anti me.

If I've been invited to someone's house that I don't know well, I'll normally mention that I do carry, and ask if they would be more comfortable with my leaving it in the car.

Now if you're coming to my place, my rules are simple.

Keep it in the holster unless there's a good reason not too.

If you're gonna drink, leave it home, in your car, or let me lock it in my safe. If you're drunk you'll get it back when I let you have your keys (I'm taking those too)

Follow the gun safety rules.

TailGator · August 24, 2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Obviously a sign saying . . . "Obama '08" is a pretty clear indication

Supporters of the Second Amendment, CCP holders, and gun hobbyists can be found in every political party, and since candidates run on more than one issue at a time, you might be surprised at the voting records of some folks who are on your side on firearms issues.

Quote:

I do assume permission unless otherwise informed.

Me, too. But I have never received an invitation, written or verbal, that included either "guns allowed" or "guns prohibited." I have worn a firearm to churches, synagogues, weddings, receptions, funerals, restaurants, parties, meetings of professional academies, private clubs, conventions, cookouts, and private homes, without ever being made, and therefore without objection.

I guess my puzzlement comes from this: If you are carrying well concealed, and you don't bring up the subject, how does the issue arise?

Still wondering if those who consider it rude for guests to carry without their permission reciprocate when they are guests, and how exactly it is handled if they do. I really can't imagine a graceful way to bring it up.

Beentown71 · August 24, 2009, 02:55 PM

Well I learned some things from this thread. Seems I have a different mindset than others on here more than I thought. Heck maybe from the TFL community in general.

I guess it boils down to the individual and not the tool for me. I am a bit of a control freak because I would want to know if someone was into my kitchen knives, tools, even if they were just looking... Any of that could be dangerous. Its not the gun it is that I don't know the people.

Here is where I question myself... The situation is no different in public settings so why am I more worried at home? I have my family out in public with out any control of others actions. For some reason the fact that it is my property got stuck in my crawl about this. It's moot anyway since I don't invite people to my home that I don't know. I just met a mortgage banker at a local restaurant instead of the house.

The other part was people saying that they would not visit if they could not carry kinda struck me as odd as well. Why? What does this do for our community? Do you feel that in danger that you can't leave your firearm behind? Honest questions (no snarkiness involved). As I have said before I am a young guy forming opinions and likes to hear the story before judging.

I.E. I can't carry at work so should I quit my job? For those that said they wouldn't visit someone who wouldn't want them to carry would you quit your job if they said that you couldn't carry?

I still feel....:barf:... I hate that word and I have used it in this thread more than any other time in my life:barf: Never mind because the more I put on here the more I sound anti even though I am the reciprocal.

Beentown

markj · August 24, 2009, 03:12 PM

Concealed means just that, nobody can tell, nobody can see, if they can, well it isnt concealed now is it?

Glenn E. Meyer · August 24, 2009, 03:25 PM

You can do without a visit to Bubba. However, you might not be able to do with the paycheck. Really, not a useful comparison.

The hospital doesn't allow guns either - however, I prefer to live and thus, I go there.

What does this say about society - well, I'd prefer to live in a completely nonviolent society and drink wine with friends but - that's not in the cards.

pax · August 24, 2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

The other part was people saying that they would not visit if they could not carry kinda struck me as odd as well. Why? What does this do for our community? Do you feel that in danger that you can't leave your firearm behind?

Nope. If I don't "feel safe" somewhere, I don't go there.

Rather, it's simply this: carrying is what I DO. I get dressed in the morning, I put my firearm on, I go about my business of the day. It's my default setting.

On one level, as I've said already, if someone wants me disarmed on their property, they're telling me they don't trust me. Okay, I can accept that -- they have just told me that they aren't my friend and don't want to be my friend. Next!

On a practical level, I'm already armed. I put the gun on this morning and I didn't intend to remove it until bedtime. You're asking me to handle the firearm unnecessarily, and to leave it somewhere less secure than it is right now. Not going to happen.

The firearm is considerably less safe lying around in a car than it is secured on my hip, so I'm not leaving it in the car unless it's either illegal to carry it or impossible to conceal it. I'm not going to be making a special trip back home just to disarm myself, and I'm not changing my entire daily routine just in case I might end up at your house.

When someone says they've got the right to keep firearms off their property, I see nothing wrong in respecting their wishes and staying off their property while I am armed.

Some folks seem to want it both ways: you want to set the rules for your own property, and then you want to insist that others must come on your property under those terms.

It doesn't work that way. My boundaries are mine, your boundaries are yours. You set your rules. I decide whether I can live with those rules.

So I'm not disarming and I'm not going to waste a bunch of emotional energy on a pseudo-friendship with someone who makes it plain they don't trust me. We can meet somewhere off their property, I guess. But if the friendship isn't even worth even that much effort to them, well, it surely isn't worth any more work on my part either. Life's too short!

Quote:

I.E. I can't carry at work so should I quit my job? For those that said they wouldn't visit someone who wouldn't want them to carry would you quit your job if they said that you couldn't carry?

I did. What you do is up to you. (And it's slightly different, as the job I quit was part time & seasonal, not the sole support for my family.)

pax

bradofhill · August 24, 2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

On one level, as I've said already, if someone wants me disarmed on their property, they're telling me they don't trust me. Okay, I can accept that -- they have just told me that they aren't my friend and don't want to be my friend. Next!

Are you sure it is YOU they don't trust? Sure it's not cousin ed who is 250lbs with the mental capacity of a 13 y/o and likes to HUG? Sure it's not the 6 y/o twin cutie girls who love to jump on their favorite aunt or uncle?

I'm not sure it's always about trusting the person carrying...

Disclaimer: If not for these things, I wouldn't have even thought to disarm prior to going to someone else's home, much less ask or announce.

Jofaba · August 24, 2009, 06:29 PM

Kayla, if he's a bit off he's probably going to lie to you. I seem to be seeing a theme emerge, and it looks like its less about people carrying inside your house, versus particular persons possibly carrying in your house.

I'm curious, as this has been a very active discussion so it could easily have been missed, if you saw my halloween scenario? I am very interested in your response. It's definitely a thinker.

If you respect the home owner and announce that you have a gun, that could be perceived as a threat. And even I, pro gun and all, if someone knocked on my door and asked if their kid could use my bathroom, oh and by the way I have a gun, I would feel threatened, not respected.

If you trust the people you associate with, then I don't see a reason to disarm them (and it now sounds like you apparently do not disarm your carrying friends). As for the people you'd rather not have carrying around you or your family, you really should be treating them as if they are capable of harming you regardless of what tools they posess. And, essentially, isn't that why you (if you do) carry as well?

Depending on where you live, you may be walking within feet or inches from dozens of civilian owned and permitted guns every day. One of those people may end up being the next mass murder. Most will not. You have another thread asking how to spot concealed carriers. I get a strong sense that you are very uncomfortable with the subject right now.

Instead of vilifying all carriers, maybe you should (and I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just suggesting) focus on the core issue you have with it right now. If there's someone in your life right now that you are worried about, you should call the authorities or speak to someone. I get the feeling that these threads are the birth of you rationalizing your distrust of concealed weapons.

I may be entirely wrong and I hope that you are not offended. I sometimes misread things.

With all respect in the world, - Joshua.

Al Norris · August 24, 2009, 07:05 PM

Just to reiterate what pax had to say, by way of a short story:

Just last week, my wife and I were invited to a BBQ by a co-worker. I declined.

When asked why, by the co-worker, I told him that we have had several discussions about guns and that he is dead set against them. He then asked what guns have to do with coming to a BBQ. I remarked that I carry everywhere, either concealed or openly, and that he knew this.

I further said that since he is morally opposed to ordinary people who carry, then he is morally opposed to me. End of discussion, as I then walked away.

His choice. My choice. That's the way it should be.

sakeneko · August 24, 2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

So back to what I was saying. I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me, if he tries hard enough. So if I don't trust the guy to begin with, disarming him really isn't going to do anything for me, safety-wise, and I know it. If the guy sets off my alarms, it isn't safe for me to hang around him, because I can't disarm him entirely -- he will still have his own body, which is larger than mine and more powerful.

Exactly. I've never assumed that "people in general" are not carrying guns or are carrying them. That just isn't the issue for me: the issue is whether that particular person is someone I trust or someone I have reservations about. Only if somebody worries me for some other reason would I even think to worry about a gun they might be carrying.

But people feel differently about this. The only friends who might be shocked in my case live in California, however, and since I can't carry there except openly in rural areas, it's a moot point.

TailGator · August 24, 2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Just last week, my wife and I were invited to a BBQ by a co-worker. I declined.

I understand and respect your decision, but did he include in his words of invitation that you were expected to leave your firearm at home, or did you assume it? How might things have gone if you accepted his invitation and carried discretely? Would he have asked you on arrival if you were armed? Or might he be someone who would respect your opinion and rights even though he disagreed with you?

I don't think we who carry should be hyper-sensitive about the issue. Not saying you were - you know the situation, you have a sense of how hostile he is, and you have your feelings about the guy - but it need not be a universal response to refuse all invitations from people who disagree with us on the issue of 2A rights. Building relationships is one way to change minds. Don't take this as a personal admonition - just a general idea for discussion.

Phoebe · August 24, 2009, 08:05 PM

flyguyskt, I'm pro concealed carry and I'm pro gun. I've been pro gun rights for probably 20 years even though I am very new to being a gun owner.

But I'm also pro individual autonomy and pro having control over my own house. To me, that trumps virtually everything. I've said it before:
My house. My rules. If you don't like it, leave.

That doesn't mean I won't let you carry in my house!! That just means it's my decision to make, not yours.

If anything, I'd expect 2nd amendment supporters to also be supporters of individual autonomy...so that's where I end up scratching my head.

But I don't think this debate is resolvable, nor do I think discussing it bearing much fruit.

Sefner, some of my biggest gun enthusiast/NRA friends voted for Obama and identify as Democrats. I think you're making a huge assumption that Obama voters = anti-gun.

Most people are not single issue voters.

Pax, there is way too much context that is missing, to talk about the guy I'd let in my house but not want to carry. I brought him up as an illustration, but it's not as simple as you're making it sound. (Or maybe for you, it would be more simple than it is for me.)

Beentown71 · August 24, 2009, 08:21 PM

Orig poster was Tailgator:

Quote:

I don't think we who carry should be hyper-sensitive about the issue.

Quote:

but it need not be a universal response to refuse all invitations from people who disagree with us on the issue of 2A rights. Building relationships is one way to change minds.

I agree.

Beentown

JED1177 · August 24, 2009, 08:26 PM

Not only in the location mentioned in this string, but everywhere, the point of concealed carry is that no one knows your are carrying.

You have the tacical advantage in any situation that may arise.

If you can't overcome the urge to tell everyone you're carrying.....you shouldn't be carrying. You would be better suited working for an ad agency.

My 2 cents..........

chemgirlie · August 24, 2009, 08:38 PM

In any situation (not just issues related to guns) it would be beneficial for all parties for the property owner to let guests know about special rules the first time they visit.

Do you prefer that I not visit after petting a cat or dog due to allergies? Would you like me to leave my gun at home or announce my carry status? Is your home a non-smoking location? Let me know about the rules of your house and I will comply or not visit.

Sportdog · August 24, 2009, 09:28 PM

I believe that a lot of the posters, me included, are having a different perspective when you use the word "friends". To me, and it is my perspective, the word "friends" conjures up an image of someone that I have known for a fairly long period of time and have trusted with conversations and openness that I would not deem appropriate for "acquaintances". It signifies a special bond. My daughter on the other hand uses the term "friends" to anyone on her "friends list" on Face Book or Space Book or whatever it is! LOL. If I were invited to one of my "friends" homes they would know that I have a CPL and I'm sure would not even ponder the ramifications of me being armed in their home. If I were invited to the home of an acquaintance, "don't ask don't tell" would be my thought and action. If I KNEW that the person DID NOT WANT me to carry in their home I would certainly respect that. Not because they think of themselves as the King or Queen of their castle, but out of respect for their wishes. As far as "my house, my rules", I can't help think about what my son-in-law tells his children when they stay with grandpa and grandma, "Pa's house, Pa's rules". I don't take that to mean that anything goes in my home. It means that my daughter and son-in-law have enough confidence and respect for me to use good judgement and if it differs some from their home turf, no big deal. It sounds to me that Kayla needs new friends and a new range with all of her talk about unsafe behavior. Very strange in my corner of the world. The people who are my "friends" are responsible gun owners and I can never remember one time that others at the range caused me to fret over safety issues. So I guess the moral of the story is..........there is no moral to the story. We all are different and live our individual lives in different manners.

August 24, 2009, 10:36 AM	#51
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Thanks for all the input on the topic guys. A few comments from the OP as I've watched this unfold . If we are going to argue, as kayla said, over individual autonomy versus the rights of property owners, kayla has that debate won. As much as we'd all like to carry on everyone else's property we simply do not have the right to carry on someone else's property without their permission (at least in the traditional American philosophy. Whether or not we do actually have a moral right to this is a debate for another time). The question then becomes "What is permission?" and that's what I'd like to focus on (before we start beating a dead horse). Obviously a sign saying "no guns" or a bumper sticker on the car that says "Brady Campaign" or "Obama '08" is a pretty clear indication (slight troll there with the Obama one ). Some new points of discussion: Do you simply assume permission unless otherwise stated as poptime analogized (which is a word) with the shoe example? Why? What about, as some have mentioned, "politeness"? As TailGator has been trying to ask (and the question I am also most interested in), HOW do you tell people you are carrying (obviously assuming you chose to do so)? Do you tell just the host? Everyone? Do you mention it ahead of time? Try to ask indirectly? Lastly, assuming that the home owner does NOT let you carry, how do you approach situation then? More specifically how do you education them? How do you say "Hey, it's not me, the lawful CHL holder, that you have to fear, it's the person who comes in here brandishing the gun uninvited."? We can argue over whether or not we have a right to carry on someone else's property all day, and the debate here has been very good. But we should try to move on before it gets a little out of hand I think WE would all, upon hearing that a guest is an CHLer, would be more than happy to have them in the house (most of them at least). But remember, we aren't talking about us. We are talking about a slightly random person. From Jim Brady himself to Sarah Palin and everywhere in between. What approach works best for MOST people and avoids the MOST confrontation (because all confrontation can't be avoided)? Last edited by Sefner; August 24, 2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason: slight disclaimer to avoid beating of horse

August 24, 2009, 11:39 AM	#57
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	This thread concerns the permission of the land owner to extend an invite to two classes of relationship: 1) friends and 2) acquaintances. May I assume that your friends are people who have earned your trust? This trust might extent to their carrying weapon on your property and home. If we assume that your friends are people that you know well enough to know their conviction about concealed carry and do not specifically tell them the invitation is to exclude carrying of a firearm, then it is implicit that the invitation includes permission for them to carry a weapon. Acquaintances are people who have not yet earned your trust. When extending an invitation to a friend I assume that the invitation includes their carrying a weapon. An invitation to an acquaintance would not automatically include that permission to carry a weapon. An analogy as the the extent of permission granted to persons on your land could be seen in hunting versus hiking. The invitation is at the whim of the land owner and can include certain parameters or not; also the duration of the permission is up to the land owner. [I am assuming a relationship here where the land owner is not receiving compensation of the use of his property and no contract and reciprocal duties are involved.] Pax, While your analogy of the King's exercise of his power over his subjects on his land is illustrative to a point, as with all analogies it breaks down. Fortunately, we in the U.S.A. live in a classless society. We have the 14th Amendment with its equal protection clause. Unfortunately, we have a federal government which is acting more like an Imperial government which regards the People as property and subjects to be ruled much like a king did in feudal times. I agree that is is morally wrong to insist upon the disarming of a responsible law-abiding adult. I submit that disarming a responsible law-abiding adult is not within the power of an invitation (Private Action) which excludes a guest from carrying a handgun in your home. It is the choice of the guest to remain or leave. This is to be distinguished from "State Action" which disarms the people and the people have no choice whether to stay or leave. Here we have a conflict of rights between one individual's property rights and another individual's right to bear arms. Neither is absolute. __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat Last edited by Mello2u; August 24, 2009 at 11:46 AM.

August 24, 2009, 12:28 PM	#59
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I don't understand the practical aspects of this thread. I get invited - I carry concealed. Why do you think I must announce to the homeowner that I carry? If they don't want guns - then they should put in on the RSVP or a sign outside. What about the gun makes it a moral imperative to announce it as compared to my underwear choice. If you think you are going to ND in a house - well - you shouldn't be carrying anywhere. Must I tell a Christian that I have a Jewish Star under my shirt? Must I tell you that I'm wearing party underwear? I carry a reasonable knife also. If you don't want guns - announce that so I can choose not to come to your house. As far as the 'my house my rules' - I got a test - take off your clothes - stand by the picture window when the school bus arrives - wait for the law. If you can't trust someone to carry and they scare you - I got a hint for you - have nothing to do with them. Don't invite them to your house. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 24, 2009, 02:55 PM	#62
Beentown71 Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Location: Midwest Posts: 1,560	Well I learned some things from this thread. Seems I have a different mindset than others on here more than I thought. Heck maybe from the TFL community in general. I guess it boils down to the individual and not the tool for me. I am a bit of a control freak because I would want to know if someone was into my kitchen knives, tools, even if they were just looking... Any of that could be dangerous. Its not the gun it is that I don't know the people. Here is where I question myself... The situation is no different in public settings so why am I more worried at home? I have my family out in public with out any control of others actions. For some reason the fact that it is my property got stuck in my crawl about this. It's moot anyway since I don't invite people to my home that I don't know. I just met a mortgage banker at a local restaurant instead of the house. The other part was people saying that they would not visit if they could not carry kinda struck me as odd as well. Why? What does this do for our community? Do you feel that in danger that you can't leave your firearm behind? Honest questions (no snarkiness involved). As I have said before I am a young guy forming opinions and likes to hear the story before judging. I.E. I can't carry at work so should I quit my job? For those that said they wouldn't visit someone who wouldn't want them to carry would you quit your job if they said that you couldn't carry? I still feel....:barf:... I hate that word and I have used it in this thread more than any other time in my life:barf: Never mind because the more I put on here the more I sound anti even though I am the reciprocal. Beentown __________________ Μολὼν λάβε Time for the Mall Ninja list: Beretta 92fs, Springer XD9, High Standard Model HB, RRA bull bbl...aw heck with it time to go plink

August 24, 2009, 03:25 PM	#64
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	You can do without a visit to Bubba. However, you might not be able to do with the paycheck. Really, not a useful comparison. The hospital doesn't allow guns either - however, I prefer to live and thus, I go there. What does this say about society - well, I'd prefer to live in a completely nonviolent society and drink wine with friends but - that's not in the cards. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 24, 2009, 10:40 AM	#52
Phoebe Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Posts: 192	Pax, you don't sound snarky. So, no worries. If anything, you're moving my line a tiny bit more than anyone else has. I don't need someone to ANNOUNCE anything. I don't know if they even need to ASK me, per se. If I generally know someone conceals, that opens the door for me to ASK them. And, in my life to date, that's how it's worked. None of my carrying friends have asked permission, but they did let me know they carry. I've never asked any of them to leave their weapons at home or in their vehicle. It's not some big HONKING deal that needs to be shouted from the rooftops every time someone enters my home. Let me give you a different example -- I mentioned in a different post, I was out somewhere with a man who I think was carrying. I would not want him in my house carrying because I think he's a bit off. Too much back story, but if the guy does come to my house, I will directly ask him and tell him he can't carry in my house. I have no problem with him being in my home, but I would have a problem with him being armed and in my home. Also, I'm not thinking someone is going to try to kill me. If I had that concern, they wouldn't be in my house!! But back to my real issue. It isn't about drinking or being high or careless. My real issue simply remains that it's my house. To me, the rest is just fluffy theoreticals. And sorry, Pax, but the King George thing makes no sense to me. His logic may have been the same, but even you admit that a homeowner should have the right to disallow firearms. Your argument is whether one should let the homeowner know. (Unless I've misunderstood you.)

August 24, 2009, 10:41 AM	#53
MajorWhiteBoy Member Join Date: April 10, 2009 Posts: 70	i'd like to think that i have the right to tell folks what they can and can't bring into my yard or house. i'd expect others to feel the same. the way you guys are talking about disarming vs letting rules be known and expecting folks to follow them doesn't seem appropriate, unless you're talking about physically disarming them yourself. i don't see saying "if you come over, please don't bring your gun" as disarming someone. it's their choice to come and leave the guns at home. if i knew someone didn't want my guns in their house, i wouldn't do it. i doubt i'd ask them first, though, and i doubt they'd know i was armed.

August 24, 2009, 11:32 AM	#55
Wuchak Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 1,093	If you are unsure about your ability to keep your gun concealed and under your complete control at all times e.g. you're one of the morons who unholsters it and sets it on the back of the toilet where it can be forgotten, then you should leave it at home or in the car. This is especially true if there are going to be any children present. If you know you will be having some adult beverages leave it at home or in the car. Personally if I invited someone over and they said, "Do you mind if I carry my gun?" I'd find it really creepy.

August 24, 2009, 11:53 AM	#58
flyguyskt Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2009 Posts: 118	KAYLA: in reading your comments at first i thought...wow she is a gun hater...then i read more and you say" my friends that usually carry i dont ask to leave their guns at home" So how do you have it? are you concealed pro or against...i'm confused? if you know someone is carrying your okay with it? but not if you had kids? what does that have to do it? you think that they are going to hand the gun to your child to play with like a frisbee? next topic: the alcohol thing...i dont want anyone drunk with a gun in their pocket. but im not going to say they cant enter my home if they are sober. IF your going to be drinking to get drunk...leave the gun at home(how you getting home by the way?) I personlly only have a few people whos homes i go to. THEYALL know and feel comfortable with the fact that i pack heat everywhere i go...so when im in their homes...they KNOW i have it with me! but then again most of them are carrying too so its all good. I don't hang around tree huggers or anti gun people because my opinion of them is that they are idiots...why would i hang around people that i didnt enjoy or who judged me.

August 24, 2009, 03:12 PM	#63
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Concealed means just that, nobody can tell, nobody can see, if they can, well it isnt concealed now is it?

August 24, 2009, 06:29 PM	#67
Jofaba Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2009 Posts: 322	Kayla, if he's a bit off he's probably going to lie to you. I seem to be seeing a theme emerge, and it looks like its less about people carrying inside your house, versus particular persons possibly carrying in your house. I'm curious, as this has been a very active discussion so it could easily have been missed, if you saw my halloween scenario? I am very interested in your response. It's definitely a thinker. If you respect the home owner and announce that you have a gun, that could be perceived as a threat. And even I, pro gun and all, if someone knocked on my door and asked if their kid could use my bathroom, oh and by the way I have a gun, I would feel threatened, not respected. If you trust the people you associate with, then I don't see a reason to disarm them (and it now sounds like you apparently do not disarm your carrying friends). As for the people you'd rather not have carrying around you or your family, you really should be treating them as if they are capable of harming you regardless of what tools they posess. And, essentially, isn't that why you (if you do) carry as well? Depending on where you live, you may be walking within feet or inches from dozens of civilian owned and permitted guns every day. One of those people may end up being the next mass murder. Most will not. You have another thread asking how to spot concealed carriers. I get a strong sense that you are very uncomfortable with the subject right now. Instead of vilifying all carriers, maybe you should (and I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just suggesting) focus on the core issue you have with it right now. If there's someone in your life right now that you are worried about, you should call the authorities or speak to someone. I get the feeling that these threads are the birth of you rationalizing your distrust of concealed weapons. I may be entirely wrong and I hope that you are not offended. I sometimes misread things. With all respect in the world, - Joshua.

August 24, 2009, 07:05 PM	#68
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Just to reiterate what pax had to say, by way of a short story: Just last week, my wife and I were invited to a BBQ by a co-worker. I declined. When asked why, by the co-worker, I told him that we have had several discussions about guns and that he is dead set against them. He then asked what guns have to do with coming to a BBQ. I remarked that I carry everywhere, either concealed or openly, and that he knew this. I further said that since he is morally opposed to ordinary people who carry, then he is morally opposed to me. End of discussion, as I then walked away. His choice. My choice. That's the way it should be.

August 24, 2009, 08:05 PM	#71
Phoebe Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Posts: 192	flyguyskt, I'm pro concealed carry and I'm pro gun. I've been pro gun rights for probably 20 years even though I am very new to being a gun owner. But I'm also pro individual autonomy and pro having control over my own house. To me, that trumps virtually everything. I've said it before: My house. My rules. If you don't like it, leave. That doesn't mean I won't let you carry in my house!! That just means it's my decision to make, not yours. If anything, I'd expect 2nd amendment supporters to also be supporters of individual autonomy...so that's where I end up scratching my head. But I don't think this debate is resolvable, nor do I think discussing it bearing much fruit. Sefner, some of my biggest gun enthusiast/NRA friends voted for Obama and identify as Democrats. I think you're making a huge assumption that Obama voters = anti-gun. Most people are not single issue voters. Pax, there is way too much context that is missing, to talk about the guy I'd let in my house but not want to carry. I brought him up as an illustration, but it's not as simple as you're making it sound. (Or maybe for you, it would be more simple than it is for me.)

August 24, 2009, 08:26 PM	#73
JED1177 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2006 Posts: 238	Not only in the location mentioned in this string, but everywhere, the point of concealed carry is that no one knows your are carrying. You have the tacical advantage in any situation that may arise. If you can't overcome the urge to tell everyone you're carrying.....you shouldn't be carrying. You would be better suited working for an ad agency. My 2 cents..........

August 24, 2009, 08:38 PM	#74
chemgirlie Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 331	In any situation (not just issues related to guns) it would be beneficial for all parties for the property owner to let guests know about special rules the first time they visit. Do you prefer that I not visit after petting a cat or dog due to allergies? Would you like me to leave my gun at home or announce my carry status? Is your home a non-smoking location? Let me know about the rules of your house and I will comply or not visit.

August 24, 2009, 09:28 PM	#75
Sportdog Junior member Join Date: February 28, 2006 Location: Southwestern Michigan Posts: 369	I believe that a lot of the posters, me included, are having a different perspective when you use the word "friends". To me, and it is my perspective, the word "friends" conjures up an image of someone that I have known for a fairly long period of time and have trusted with conversations and openness that I would not deem appropriate for "acquaintances". It signifies a special bond. My daughter on the other hand uses the term "friends" to anyone on her "friends list" on Face Book or Space Book or whatever it is! LOL. If I were invited to one of my "friends" homes they would know that I have a CPL and I'm sure would not even ponder the ramifications of me being armed in their home. If I were invited to the home of an acquaintance, "don't ask don't tell" would be my thought and action. If I KNEW that the person DID NOT WANT me to carry in their home I would certainly respect that. Not because they think of themselves as the King or Queen of their castle, but out of respect for their wishes. As far as "my house, my rules", I can't help think about what my son-in-law tells his children when they stay with grandpa and grandma, "Pa's house, Pa's rules". I don't take that to mean that anything goes in my home. It means that my daughter and son-in-law have enough confidence and respect for me to use good judgement and if it differs some from their home turf, no big deal. It sounds to me that Kayla needs new friends and a new range with all of her talk about unsafe behavior. Very strange in my corner of the world. The people who are my "friends" are responsible gun owners and I can never remember one time that others at the range caused me to fret over safety issues. So I guess the moral of the story is..........there is no moral to the story. We all are different and live our individual lives in different manners.