Trying to find an accurate load for my 30-06 m70

[Jackapeeco]

So im trying to find out what I'm doing wrong I had purchased 200 rounds of Hornady super performance SST 165 grain for my rifle. now I'm getting into reloading,
I started with 53 grains of IMR 4350 and 165 grain ballistic tip they shot low and not a very impressive group
The next step up in powder they really spread out then at the top end 57 grains they were shooting about 3" at 100 yards, so I checked the factory Hornady ammo right about a 1" group. the main difference I can see is that I decreased the seating depth so that it was just off the lands I adjusted it so it wasn't a jam fit and that ended up being 3/16" longer than the Hornady ammo.
So I'm wondering if my rifle likes the bigger jump or if I should switch powder or bullets
Or if anyone has ideas I know I don't have exact measurements of distance off of the lands and I don't have a chronograph but I was very careful when loading
So I hope this is enough info, I'm new here so be gentle lol
My setup
30-06 model 70 Winchester
Timminey trigger 3.5 pounds
Glass beded action and floated barrel

[sako2]

seat them to the same c.o.l. as the hornady or go on noslers site and get there c.o.l. for that bullet. start at the starting load and work up to max in 1/2gn increments. Watching for pressure signs.

[Jackapeeco]

Thanks that will be the new plan lots to learn yet

[rg1]

The Nosler BT is a great bullet but your rifle doesn't appear to like them. I'd give the Hornady SST bullet a try since it seems to have some promise with factory loads. Some 30-06 rifles seem to prefer flat based bullets rather than boat tails. A box of 165 Hornady SP flat based bullets might be worth a try depending on your game and distance you hope to shoot? I would definitely start with Nosler's recommended length, find the most accurate powder load, then play with seating depth being careful not to jam the bullet into the lands and not too close especially in a stock 30-06 hunting type rifle. I would stay with recommended seating length from the bullet company.

[Ifishsum]

This load I use for .30-06 has so far not failed to shoot well for me in any of the bolt-action rifles I have tried it in, which has been probably 8-10 between mine and my immediate family's...including a couple of W70s. Even so I always start a bit lower and work up, the sweet spot always seems to be there at 57.0 gr of H4350 (close slightly different powder than your IMR4350), 165gr Hornady Interlock SP or SST with a CCI 200 primer. Usually in Federal or Remington brass. I still start a workup at about 54gr with a new rifle and shoot up to 57 or 57.5. I will say that 2 or 3 of them just would not shoot boat tails well; for those I tried the flat base interlock SP version (#3040) and found success but I usually try the boat tail (#3045) or the SST first. Loading to magazine length as long as it's not jamming the lands. FWIW, COL has not really mattered significantly with any of those I tried playing around with; most are hunting rifles and I want the rounds to fit the mag no matter what.

[jmr40]

I found best accuracy right at 1 gr less than they suggest as a max load with most any 150, 165 or 180 gr bullet and either H4350 or IMR4350. The powders are similar, but load data is not interchangeable. Max loads are close, but different.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Bought a Remington Long Range rifle in 30-06 last year, and was told that IMR4350 was the "go-to" powder for it. Had some Nosler 175 grain competition bullets for my 308 and decided to work up some loads, but the best I could get was a 2 inch group at 100 yards. By chance I also had some H4831 and presto-rifle and load made me look good! Strange that the powder alone would make that much difference, but in my case it sure did. Now I have to meet up with my youngest son who's LRR in the same cartridge loves 4350 and hates 4831 for a swap of powders lol

[T. O'Heir]

Forget the 'just off the lands' stuff until you have a load. The 'just off the lands' thing is a load tweaking technique that is entirely trial and error. Every rifle has a different distance it prefers. And you're limited to 'fits in the mag length'.
"...they shot low..." You can forget that too when you're working up loads. Only the group size matters. Where it hits does not. That comes after you've found the load your rifle likes.
You may find your M70 doesn't like a floated barrel too. A floated barrel guarantees nothing. This isn't a big deal though. There's no way of telling if a particular rifle likes it or not except by trying it as you've done. Once you find the load, you can try a pressure point by putting a couple layers of match book cardboard under the barrel about 1 to 2 inches from the end of the forestock. If accuracy improves use a bit of bedding epoxy to make it permanent. The whole thing is about consistency though. Not so much about accuracy or small groups.
53 grains of IMR 4350 is below the current minimum for a lead cored 165 according to Hodgdon. (Isn't for a solid copper bullet.) However, your rifle appears to dislike IMR4350 anyway.
IMR4064 is your friend. It gives more consistent accuracy than most other powders.
Anyway, you need to work up the load, not just pick one and hope. The start load of IMR4350 and a 165 is 56.0. Load 5(mag load) and go up by half a grain to the max load of 60.0(Compressed). (Compressed loads are nothing o worry about.) keeping 'em separate. Then go shooting off a solid bench rest at 100 yards, using a sighting in target(the one with the inch squares) for group only. Shoot slowly and deliberately and allow time for cooling between strings.
Oh and Hornady Superformance ammo is their current name for their old(few years ago) 'Light Magnum' line of ammo. Really just 'Max load' ammo. Not that it matters.

[Unclenick]

Jackapeeco,

If I understand your post correctly, you are using the 165 grain Hornady SST. The mention of Nosler was from Sako2, but actually does not apply to your bullet. The factory recommended COL for your bullet is 3.230", at which point the crimp cannelure knurled into the bullet will have the case mouth over part of it. This is the place to start. Moving a bullet closer to the lands can help some bullets align better, but when you get either touching the lands or just very close to doing so, pressure can increase up to about 20%. As Mr. O'Heir says, it's a tuning technique. Save it for later.

Regarding the floated barrel, floating ensures no interference from inconsistent or unintentional stock contact. Elimination of that contact is good, but the free floating barrel now can move more and it will have its own sweet spot around which it bends. Mr. O'Heir's suggestion controls where the cancellation node is and can help you tune the rifle. But like different seating depths, I wouldn't start there. You already know factory loads group into an inch, so you want to at least replicate that and worry about finer tuning later.

Be aware that as powders get slower burning, the total barrel time for a given muzzle velocity gets longer. This might not synchronize perfectly with your particular barrel's deflection timing. You may run through a number of loads with the 4350 and discover you actually need to use 4064 or Varget or some other powder with your particular rifle. But here, again, don't go there right away. IMR 4350 almost always produces a good load somewhere in its load range.

Read through Dan Newberry's method of load tuning as a starting point. However, I note that they have an established 165 grain load of 57.5 grains of IMR 4350. So, try that with your bullet. Then, if you go back and use the starting load to find a better bullet seating depth sweet spot, a la Berger (below), once you have found it you can work back up toward that 57.5 grain number and, assuming no pressure signs, see how it does.

Read through Berger's method of tuning seating depth, but be sure you back down to a light starting load (56 grains, according to Hodgdon. 53 grains is for H4350 and not IMR 4350) to start jammed into the lands as they do.

Other general hints for beginners:

After you resize, trim and chamfer your cases, run a bore brush on a drill in and out of the mouth to dull the chamfer corner and remove fouling that can cause bullet pull irregularity. Put a teaspoon of graphite powder into an ounce of alcohol and stir it and apply it with a Q-tip around the inside of each case mouth and let it dry before priming and charging and seating the bullet. This all helps keep the bullet intact and a seating straight. If you can afford the $20, buy a Lyman M die for .30-06 and add the step of expanding the case mouth to put a small step in it so the bullet sits upright straight in the case when you start it into the seating die.

When you prime, make sure you seat the primer hard enough. Pretty firm. It should, ideally, be about four thousandths below flush with the case head. This is to set the bridge of priming mix between the cup and he anvil to a nominal value. See this article on primers.

[1stmar]

Try 47 gr of 4064 168 smk

[RC20]

No, go with what worked, he can test others latter.

So, my take is that I will take a given powder (4350) and load from low to high in 3/10 increments. 15 of each.

Seat per Unclenick

I am just looking for the best group between those loads, it does not have to be under an inch though it often hovers around that.

You should find two if not 3 places that gives you a decent group. one lower down and another up near max but usually not at max, maybe another one in between.

That give you a low target round if you want and a higher hunting round.

Pick the one you are looking for in speed wise (slow target, fast hunting) , load up a box and then you can start working with COAL.

I just re-read the OCW and it hurts my brain a bit. I picked up this link
The verbiage does not make sense, pictures do, so I picked up this link

http://www.ocwreloading.com/target-analysis.html

That makes more sense, I can see the scatter, the 43.6 looks like a better load, too close to scatter and not much to push if off.

Its something like my method but a lot more nuanced and researched (what's new?)

Have to bow to the more better.

[Slamfire]

If the rifle won't shoot well with a good quality 165/168 and 47.0 grains IMR 4895 or 55 grs H4350, you don't have an ammunition problem.

I recently found an accuracy problem to be loose scope mount screws. The rifle has a Redfield Jr. base and what do you know, the screws that held the base to the receiver were loose. Another rifle, the front screws to the scope rings were loose. If the rifle is shooting poorly, take the time to put an allen wrench or a screwdriver to the heads of the screws and test their tension.

[oldscot3]

My 30-06 shoots 165gr Balistic Tips ok (minute of whitetail), but what it really likes is Sierra's 150 grain Pro Hunters on top of RL 19. Dang thing thinks its a sniper rifle with those loads. Three shot groups go in the .500" range, five shot groups open only slightly to about .700".

It's a 60s vintage Smith & Wesson branded Husky that was my dad's gun. It has a pretty light weight barrel and never shot anything else this well.

[sako2]

Unclenick op said he purchased 200 rounds of hornady superformance. Now he is reloading a ballistic tip.

[Jackapeeco]

Hey thanks everyone for your input I went to the manual
For the overall length and for some reason that seems to
Improve the performance

[disseminator]

Hey thanks everyone for your input I went to the manual
For the overall length and for some reason that seems to
Improve the performance

Hey Jack. Glad to hear you got it figured out.

Just for the record, the "some reason" that you mention has to do with pressures and the bullet jump in your chamber. I believe it was mentioned but starting with the factory length was the right move.

Happy loading.

[F. Guffey]

30-06 model 70 Winchester
Timminey trigger 3.5 pounds
Glass beded action and floated barrel

Winchester and I had words, all I wanted was a Winchester 300 Win Mag. chamber that matched my dies and/or Winchester dies that fit their chamber. The chamber in that rifle was the ugliest chamber I had ever seen.

I went to the range with 2 300 WMs, on shot one hole groups and the Winchester shot patterns like a shot gun. I was shooting the same ammo from both rifles. I informed Winchester the chamber was too large in diameter and it was too long; they informed me they would have their warranty man hone, polish and ream the chamber and I ask which method and or technique would make the chamber smaller. Anyhow, it has been 15 years since they mailed the rifle back 'in a new box'. About a year ago I decided I would start over, I loaded 100 rounds with one box of new over the counter 300 Win Mag. ammo.

After checking the rifle chamber, feed, bolt closing etc. I stuck the rifle in the corner and then sent the ammo to the owner of the rifle that shot one hole groups.

No moral to the story but when I find a rifle that shoot like a shot gun it takes less time to fix the gun than it takes to find ammo it likes. I have loaded 120 rounds in groups of 10 using different case head stamps, bullets and powder with disregard for to, into or off the lands that shot 12 groups that could be covered with a quarter and no flyers. Some of the groups shared the same hole. All of this in an effort to determine if there was a load the rifle liked.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

Sako 2,

That's the darnedest thing. You saw the Nosler mention, I didn't, and to make sure there was no mention in the OP, I ran the "find" function in my browser and your mention of Nosler was the first it found. The OP also looks different to me now, but there's no edit record on it. So I don't know what happened? Obviously the full content didn't display when I had it up originally. I don't think I've ever run into this before, and if I hadn't run the "find" function, I'd have assumed my eyes simply skipped over it (which they can do, and which is why I used the "find" function).

[sako2]

How do you get to the find function?

[condor bravo]

If working up loads fails to yield satisfactory results, try Mr. T's suggestion in post #8 by applying pressure near the stock's forend. I have a Model 70 Win in .338 Win mag that came with a free floating barrel and would hardly group 5 shots within 5 inches at 100. The rifle also had a hard plastic insert an inch long inserted near the forend that was to be removed upon firing, leaving the barrel free floating and shooting 5 inch groups. I finally shoved the plastic insert some 4 or 5 inches up the barrel channel, thereby putting excessive pressure between barrel and stock near the forend. This brought the group size down considerably but of course would vibrate loose after a few shots. The next thing was to trim the plastic insert to the contour of the stock channel and glass bed it into place. This resulted in bringing the group size down consistently at 1.25 inches at 100 and 5 shots. I would like to say that adding forend pressure to all my model 70s and Rem 700s produced similar results but such is not the case. Of course they don't start out shooting 5 inch groups like the .338 but sometimes adding forend pressure doesn't help at all towards that 1 inch group or better.

[Nosler guy]

Are you sorting your brass? Hornady brass imo is not so good. Inconsistent rockwells and case capacities and also really poor headspace specs. Try sorting whatever you have to 1 gr. Also loading to the lands is more for a secant ogive bullet. Tangent ogive bullets really don't care how far away they are from the lands as long as your chambers true. Nos bt's are tangent ogive.

[Unclenick]

Sako2,

In Windows 10, the Crtl+F key combination does it in browsers and documents and in most software.

The intentional barrel contact point can make the gun easier to tune loads for and make some ammunition not previously accurate become accurate. Harold Vaughn referred to this as "O'Connor bedding" because he believed he'd first heard about it in an article that Jack O'Connor had written long ago. You basically wedge shims between the barrel and stock starting at the tip of the stock and moving back small amounts until the groups tighten. You then affix them at that point. The general consensus seems to be that you want between 10 and 20 lbs of force of the barrel pushing down on the stock. The easiest way I've found to do that is to set the gun on the bench with the front bag back under the magazine floor plate and the fore-end overhanging the bench, then hold the butt of the stock down while I hang a couple of gallon jugs of water off the sling swivel at the front while I insert the wedges until they feel snug, then remove the water jugs. The arrangement would look like this from the front:



Vaughn's opinion was that this is the only kind of bedding that may be counted on to help a rifle with a light, whippy barrel. However, like any kind of tuning it is interacting with the load, and some loads will need the support in in a little different location than others. For that reason, the Smart Stock device was invented as a tunable barrel pressure support. It uses a Nylon or Delryn support block in a channel in the stock under the barrel that is moved by a screw for adjustment. You find the best spot for the load you want to hunt with before your hunt and you are set to go.

[RC20]

Very nice explanation.

[F. Guffey]

http://classic.gunauction.com/search...temnum=7309186

I bid on and won this auction. Reloading forums had a field day at the builders expense. I fist went for the sum of the parts and then I considered the builder knew more about building an accurate rifle than they die.

I took it to the rang with 12 different loads of 10 rounds each with every type of case I had like new, once fired, necked up 270 Winchester cases, fired once cases, military cases etc..

All of the groups stayed together with no flyers, each group could be covered with a quarter, I decided I could not improve on accuracy so I applied the 'leaver policy' I lefter the way I founder.

F. Guffey

[sako2]

Thanks unclenick. Don't have windows 10.