Experienced handgun reloader getting into rifles for first time

[ghbucky]

Well,

I got the length off the shoulder, and then adjusted the die to move it back 2 thousands. I made a dummy round off that and fed into my action through magazine. The bolt closed, but extraction was a royal pain.

I took the die in another thousands and tried again and the rifle seemed to like that one just fine. That puts my cases right at max length. I guess it beats being over after every firing.

Thanks for all the help

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

Thanks all for the info.

However, I'm a bit confused about sizing. I thought the idea was that if you fired out of the same chamber, then you didn't need to do full length sizing. Can someone walk me through why full length is the way to go?

The reason full length sizing is popular in serious accuracy events is case necks are better centered on the case shoulder.

When the rimless bottleneck cartridge is fired, its shoulder is perfectly centered in the chamber shoulder by the 2+ ounce firing pin by its 25+ pound spring force driving it there near 20 fps. If the case shoulder is well centered on the shoulder, its neck is therefore nicely centered in the barrel. Therefore, so is the bullet tip.

The case body being smaller than the chamber is not an issue. Its back end may be off center some amount by the extractor pushing it there. So the bullet tip will be off center opposite near half as much in the opposite direction. But very repeatable from shot to shot.

Dies without expander balls are best.

[ghbucky]

Dies without expander balls are best.

How do you size the neck for bullet seating?

[Metal god]

Can you explain what you mean by put your case right at max length ? Cus .003 is perfect for an AR .

OK now I’ve got another test for you to do drop a new dummy round into the chamber then slowly ride the bolt home holding the charging handle until it rests onto the barrel/chamber . Then lightly tap on your forward assist until the round fully chambers , extract and measure With the Hornady tool . Now make another dummy round put it in a magazine lock the bolt open insert the magazine into rifle and release the bolt with the bolt release letting the bolt fly home, extract and measure let me know what those two measurements are in comparison to yours sized case .

I’m concerned you may not be sizing the case enough yet . If you have trouble lighty tapping the round in with the forward assist it may indicate you need another thousand or two .

[ghbucky]

Can you explain what you mean by put your case is right at max length ?

The sized cases are 1.76" SAAMI tells me that is max case length.

On the test, weird thing happened.

My COL with a bullet seated is 2.200. I did the first test of riding the bolt in and that round did not want to extract. Once I got it to extract it measured at 2.202.

I re-seated the bullet and tried again with no issues. After both tests it was 2.200

[Metal god]

1.760 is the case length . Do you have the Hornady gauge yet ? What is the head to shoulder length , thats the measurement I’m looking for .

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

How do you size the neck for bullet seating?

Have the die neck honed out to .002" less than the loaded round neck diameter. Case neck will spring back to provide a .001 inch interference fit dimension to the bullet.

Or use full length bushing dies. Forster hones out their dies for 12 dollars.

I always got better accuracy with new cases; they're full length sized from their get go.

[Metal god]

Bart have you read this thread . He’s new to loading bottle neck cartridge and loading for an AR . He doesn’t need his die honed , he needs to take baby steps and a standard die is more then good enough right now .

[ghbucky]

Ok, ignore my previous comments about case. I finally realized what you are getting at.

I kept working the die in and finally realized I am right back to the manufacturers setting of being in contact with the shell holder.

Interestingly, even using that sizing, the bolt won't close with the forward assist. I tried an unfired case and it was fine.

Hornady custom grade dies, btw.

[ghbucky]

Have the die neck honed out to .002" less than the loaded round neck diameter. Case neck will spring back to provide a .001 inch interference fit dimension to the bullet.

Or use full length bushing dies. Forster hones out their dies for 12 dollars.

I always got better accuracy with new cases; they're full length sized from their get go.

I appreciate the info. Somehow I doubt my $500 AR will really get much benefit out of that extra step

[Metal god]

OK now with your die at that new setting size a case and leave the ram fully up. Now look in between the die base and shell holder , is there a gap ? Meaning are they still touching? . If there is a gap you can screw the die down a bit more and that should size the case a bit more .

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Bart have you read this thread .

Yes, and he gets to decide how big his steps are.

[Metal god]

Wow , just wow . That helps me understand a few things , thanks .

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

I appreciate the info. Somehow I doubt my $500 AR will really get much benefit out of that extra step

If it reduces biggest groups a half MOA, is it worth it?

Accuracy is best defined by the largest groups fired because they show what all the variables can add up to. Smallest groups typically happen when the variables mostly cancel each other out.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by Metal god

OK now with your die at that new setting size a case and leave the ram fully up. Now look in between the die base and shell holder , is there a gap ? Meaning are they still touching? . If there is a gap you can screw the die down a bit more and that should size the case a bit more .

Good point.

[Unclenick]

Ghbucky,

Are you crimping your rounds when you seat them? If so, too much crimp pressure can cause the shoulder to be upset, fattening it. If that happens, you will see a bright spot where the brass rubbed the chamber going in, or you can color it with a Magic Marker and run it in and out to see where the ink is rubbed off by contact with the chamber. Unless you are going to shoot the ammunition in a full-auto weapon or parachute a pallet of it into a war zone, crimping is not required.

Are you resizing once-fired GI brass? If so, often, that brass turns out to have originally been fired in a machine-gun and can be stretched and fattened from the loose chamber fit in those weapons and require extra resizing effort the first time you resize it. Some folks get a small-base die for this to help get the case narrow enough. If you are using brass from ammunition originally fired when new in your gun, then this should not be necessary, though occasionally we hear of an AR that just won't feed right unless its brass goes through a small-base die every load cycle. I've never had any gas-operated gun that required this, but they have been reported by board members.

Make use of your Hornady gauge. Make up a new dummy and measure the case head-to-shoulder dimension and, as I described, paint it up with Magic marker and chamber it and fight to get it extracted and when you do, check that head-to-shoulder measurement again and look at the scuffed Magic Marker ink to see where it is rubbing and let us know. But if it got shorter after being chambered, that tells you the case was being final-resized in the chamber when the bolt slammed home on it and its head-to-shoulder dimension was too long and needs to be shorter after resizing.

To determine the shorter length, measure the head-to-shoulder number on a fired case that started out as new ammunition. Measure at least ten of them if you can, and use the shortest one as your starting point. You want the resized brass 0.002"-0.003" shorter from head to shoulder than that one is.

If necessary, rather than a small base die, you can try over-resizing with your existing die to get a fit. This should only need to be done once with once-fired GI brass. Once it has been fired in your chamber it should be possible to resize normally. Set it up as already described and so no crack of light is visible between the shell holder and die mouth when looking sideways across the shell holder with a light behind it and a case fully up in the die. When you have the die body locked in place, lower the press ram. Unscrew the decapping and expander assembly from the die body without disturbing the die body position. Then unscrew the expander from the end of the rod and remove the decapping pin. Put the expander back without the pin and screw the assembly into the die body. Find a set of feeler gauges that can slip in between the head of the case and the bottom of the slot in the shell holder so they lift the case. Try a feeler gauge that is 0.002" thick first. If that case is still too big or fat, try a thicker one and so on until you have a fit.

[rc]

Consider a new single stage press and RCBS dies. Lee may be fine for your pistol loads but their equipment is not top of the line. You are more likely to have problems with satisfactory high volume progressive loading of rifle rounds in my opinion and should instead focus on precision. Remember you have to lube cases before sizing and it can be a sticky mess compared with carbide pistol dies. You also will not have a flare on the case since this is generally a two die process instead of 3. Carefully putting your bullet on top of the case each time as you work the press handle to make sure it goes smoothly into the die is important. It's not as big a deal with pistol reloading when the flare can hold the bullet in place. This is most significant with flat base bullets, not so much with boat tails which sit on a case without flair. You find both for 223 caliber. You have gotten some good advice on setting up your dies not to crush the neck. Rifle loading can be fun and rewarding but don't get in a hurry as it's easier to make mistakes.

[ghbucky]

UncleNick: The brass is from Federal Eagle rounds I bought new and fired in this rifle, and I am not crimping. I'll run your test later today.

RC: My dies for .223 are the Hornady Custom grade. What about RCBS dies makes them more desirable?

[ghbucky]

OK now with your die at that new setting size a case and leave the ram fully up. Now look in between the die base and shell holder , is there a gap ? Meaning are they still touching? . If there is a gap you can screw the die down a bit more and that should size the case a bit more .

There it is. There was additional daylight, when I closed that down it moved the shoulder back .004 and the bolt will close to battery.

Sure is gonna be a brass eater though. I'll see if can tweak it down a bit.

[Metal god]

I'm glad you got it chambering well , however a gap is OK and often is needed with a standard shell holder . I was just pointing out that "if" there was a gap you there was still room and you could screw the die down more and size the case a little bit more . If your die and shell holder are making firm contact and the case is still tight . Either you have a really short chamber or as Unclenick was pointing out you may need a small base die the size down the diameter of the case a bit more . Since these are fired in your rifle that shouldn't be the problem but can't exclude it yet .

There is a possibility you are not getting the correct measurement of your chamber from your fire formed cases . If I'm reading your posts correctly . You got the die to size the case .003 shorter ( from head to shoulder ) then your fire formed cases but that was still a bit tight ( hard to extract ) . You then screwed the die down more and got another .004 of sizing ( bump of the shoulder ) for a total of .007 difference from your fire formed cases ?????

If so there is something not quite right . You shouldn't need a .007 shoulder bump to get the case to freely chamber . At most .004 should be plenty and .003 is all you should need . This leads me to believe there is something not right , nothing catastrophic or anything but rather a little tweak needs to be done here but I'm not sure where with out knowing for sure if your fire formed cases are truly representing your chamber dimensions .

Are you depriming the fired case before you measure for the fire formed dimensions ?

I have a Lee classic turret press but have never sized a rifle case on it . It is dedicated to pistol loading . Maybe I should try that and see what you may be experiencing . I have an idea of what you may need but I'm going to try it out on my press first before I bring it up . Only because they are generally not needed but IMHO the best tool ever that is not needed lol

[ghbucky]

If I'm reading your posts correctly . You got the die to size the case .003 shorter ( from head to shoulder ) then your fire formed cases but that was still a bit tight ( hard to extract ) . You then screwed the die down more and got another .004 of sizing ( bump of the shoulder ) for a total of .007 difference from your fire formed cases ?????

No, I got a total of .004 after screwing the die in further.

Are you depriming the fired case before you measure for the fire formed dimensions ?

Yes. The fire formed cases were decapped and tumbled with stainless steel pins (and left out to dry for 2 days) before anything else was done with them.

[Metal god]

Oh ok thanks , .004 isn’t to bad you should be fine .

[ghbucky]

I very much appreciate all of the patient help here.

[Bart B.]

Regarding die adjustments, read post #8 in:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=513970

Print them on a sheet of sticky-back label paper so they can be easily put on lock rings to stay in place. Here's what they look like stuck on die lock rings with .002" graduated marks:

[Metal god]

I very much appreciate all of the patient help here.

No thank you for your patience. I purposefully did one step at a time rather than write a 16 paragraph post of every step . It just seemed easier if you were to work on one thing at a time and understand it before you moved on . There is truly hundreds of things you could know about Reloading that is really not necessary for you to know to get started . There’s no need to clutter your brain with things you won’t get to for another year or even longer .

I remember when I started and I was being bombarded with truly interesting things and was not sure what I didn’t need to do and what was necessary . I was looking to load Precision high accuracy rounds for 308 and was truly being overwhelmed with facts . Then one guy came along and said don’t worry about any of that crap you’re not gonna load super accurate ammo for at least a year . At the time I thought he was full of crap but it turned out he was 100% correct. It took me about a year to fully understand what I was doing . Not that I have the market cornered or anything now , just saying .

Right now just get some safe reliable ammo load it up and working you can branch out from there . That’s my recommendation anyways